European healthcare

Old Sep 3rd, 2007, 03:54 AM
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Author: Tim_and_Liz
Date: 08/31/2007, 11:11 pm
I saw the authors present that study at a national conference. Their results come from a systematic, well-done survey, not just random interviews with people on the street.


Author: smueller
Date: 09/03/2007, 01:47 am

The methodology is so seriously flawed that it is difficult to decide where to begin.
A more cynical interpretation, however, is that it was designed and conducted with a predetermined conclusion in mind.


Yes you do take a more cynical interpretation when the data doesn't suit.
Think I believe Tim and Liz.

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Old Sep 3rd, 2007, 04:08 AM
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700 posts and SM is still frantically trying to justify an inequitable health care system on the basis of right wing ideology.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2007, 07:48 AM
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Hi SM,

You did an excellent review of that report.

However, I think that we have passed the point of diminishing returns on this thread.

Over 700 posts. I had expected it to be gone before 200.

ira is offline  
Old Sep 3rd, 2007, 08:01 AM
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Please accept my apologies for starting this insanity!
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Old Sep 3rd, 2007, 08:25 AM
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I agree that this thread has gone completely off topic. Pammyjo - it was a good topic to bring up and for a while there was a lot of good reading.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2007, 09:01 AM
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<< why are we having this discussion at all.

Americans (and non-Americans) obviously can get FREE health care in Montana - and the same day >>

Belated answer to danon...

You're not very familiar with medical care in America if you find this statement hard to believe.

If your illness is sufficiently serious, then virtually anyone* can get almost unlimited free medical care in America, without paying, as long as you have no current assets, and (most likely) no future assets. Indeed, this is one of the very serious flaws in American medical care - - this extremely IN efficient system exists for passing on the cost of unpaid (and non-collectable) medical expenditure to the insured (and then a second time) to taxpayers at large (since the insured and the taxpayers are the same people) - - all the while spending enormous energy, in destructive ways on several very bad consequences...

1) "collection" efforts on the marginally poor, making their lives miserable by forcing them to choose between doing without important (other) things in their lives or bankruptcy to pay down bills that are crazy too high


2) the complete dissociation between cost and value in a huh fraction of medical "services" for those patients who do have assets, but are not part of a negotiated plan.

(by the way, I put an asterisk by "anyone" since I have almost no familiarity with what options are extended to some elderly patients - - those who have exceeded certain Medicare limits, especially for chronic care... and - - I suppose - - maybe some elderly non-citizens who cannot enroll in Medicare, and have repeatedly received a lot of free care - - perhaps they do indeed get turned out I don't know where).

Of course, the kicker is that ou have to first get sick enough that your illness or injury is totally unsuited for ambulatory/outpatient care.

And as I have said before - - insured or not, assets or none - - the dissociation between cost and value of so many medical services... results in countless billions being spent on services that really serve no useful purpose, and do no one any meaningful good. The perpetuation of illness has become incredibly cherished and revered in America, in the name of extending life.

If we can dialyze you another day in America to keep you alive, to make sure that you are still here tomorrow... to have that MRI... that no one in your family will ever be able to afford - - not to mention totally never understand why you are having it - - then, dialyze we shall...
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Old Sep 3rd, 2007, 09:44 AM
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Typo it may be but "a huh fraction of medical "services"" tells a certain truth about a lot of professionals in a lot of different systems.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2007, 10:18 AM
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While I believe the U.S. does need to sort out some kind of basic universal coverage for its citizens, I thank SMueller for a thoughtful, careful analysis of the . I would agree with the assertion that the Commonwealth Fund is flawed and there was NOTHING "frantic" about SM's posts. In fact, I believe SM is due credit for well-considered, rather than knee-jerk, posts.
I still have no idea which is the best way to implement universal coverage in the U.S., but hopefully we will do so at some point...soon. However, I think everyone has to realize that we're not going to be able to offer a 5 star health plan at 2 star prices...good luck figuring out who gets what, when and how.
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