European group tour or no?
 

My 18 yr old daughter and I are planning a post graduation trip to Europe with a friend and her daughter in June. We have 10-12 days and I told my daughter we need to narrow it down to 2 or 3 places. We are struggling with where we should plan our trip. London/Paris? Italy? Greece? Spain/Portugal? We all agree any place we go will be great, but need to make a decision! Also, guided tour or not? I've read some negative reviews of doing tours and wonder if we should plan it all ourselves. I was in Europe once, many years ago, and we planned it ourselves, but wonder what would be the best? Any suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated.

>> Also, guided tour or not?<<

In your situation absolutely not IMO. No tour companies are really geared to 18yo's and their mothers.

Plus -- how are the girls w/ getting up at 6:30 every morning, having their bags in the corridor by 7AM and on a bus by 8AM -- all repeated the next morning?

You do need to decide which 2 (or at very most) 3 places you want to visit - but once you narrow that down it is very easy easy to work out the details on your own.

My husband's concern is our safety... he has never been anywhere other than Canada and thought a group tour would be safer for us. That thought actually never crossed my mind, but planning on our own, in your opinion, would be just as safe?

Agree with Janis that this is probably best done independently.

However, if you decide on a tour, keep in mind that they come in all sorts of different variations (e.g. they do not all demand an early start) but you need to be selective. The effort to choose the right tour for you is probably as much or more than planning the trip yourselves. Also most tours, in my experience, have either one or two nights in each place or base a week (or more) in one place - which is not what you are planning.

Safety? Physical concern like this? http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...tour-group.cfm

It looks like your husband does not have any oversea experience and therefore pre-decided based on some preconceived notion, without evidences of facts, that it would be safe in group tour?

If it is a planning issue, what I found talking to others from North America while traveling in Italy last month, was that majority don't bother to do any research of the places they are heading to. It is not a surprise that they encounter foul ups and long line at attractions most guide books tell you reservations are essential. I can't tell you how many restaurants I have eaten this time where walk-ins after walk-ins were told, no table tonight, next availability is in two weeks, etc. Guidebooks and restaurant review sites tell you this and one can do quick look up of target destinations in just a few minutes.

A simple reminder to combat this is if you cannot articulate how you are going to do things with data to back them up -- how to buy ticket, where to enter, how to get there, when to make reservation, which order to visit, etc, except relying on assumptions over assumptions, you would need to look up guide books and web sites to validate your understandings.

Many people I talk to before the trip balk at doing the research before the trip as being such a chore and why bother. It is up to your to decide if you want to spend time before the trip and have trips go smoothly or take it easy before the trip, and hit well documented snags during the trip.

I do not recommend strict so many days, so many places rule. The relevant allocation of days and number of destinations is what combination gives you the most of what you are looking for within your constraints in 10 days. It can be one destination, two destinations, or even four destinations. Play with where you are going and allocate different number of days. Look at what you can do within your constraints.

>>My husband's concern is our safety... he has never been anywhere other than Canada and thought a group tour would be safer for us. That thought actually never crossed my mind, but planning on our own, in your opinion, would be just as safe?<<

I travel to Europe at least 3 times a year solo -- primarily to the UK but at least once a year to somewhere else . . . and have never felt unsafe once - unlike in my own home town. What are your husband's fears?

Say the typical first timer's trip 5 or 6 days in London and the same in Paris. It is so easy to do this on your own. Fly into London, train to Paris, fly home. Easy peasy.

Or to make it really REALLY simple pick ONE city. London w/ a day trip or two to places like Oxford or Canterbury, or Paris with day trip(s) to say Chartres or Giverny. There are free or inexpensive walking tours in most European cities, and easy train connections for the day trips. Going to the theatre or concerts at night and public transport/walking home is totally safe.

I am Canadian.. and have visited Europe alone,, and alone with my kids.. I have taken my kids ( on separate one on one trips) when they were 13, and 11.

Safe.. ha.. safer then home probably!

Absolutely go on your own and let the girls have fun.. they are old enough to go without you ( my dd is going next year on her own.. she will be 19) .. she speaks no foreign languages and other then two trips to Europe with me.. she has not been overseas on her own.. ( but does go on trip around our province on her own of course.. has since she was 17)

You only have 10-12 days.. can't you stretch that a bit.. maybe if work is an issue the girls could stay a few more days then you ( I am assuming this is a before they start college trip?)

I would pick two or three easy places.. fly into London,, spend a few days there.. then Eurostar to Paris.. then , if you have time.. maybe fly to Rome ( on Easyjet for instance) and fly home from Rome..
Look for airfares that allow you to fly in one city and out another.. Airtransat has them.. on website enter "multi destination " for prices.
Air Canada does them too.. but way more pricey in my experience.
WestJet has started flying to London too..

Or.. do London and Dublin.. both easy ..

Actually so is Amsterdam..

Actually its all very easy.. you do not have to be a world traveller.. just normal common sense and a willingness to do some research.. which is dead simple now with internet.

I live in a small city.. if I can do it so can you!

PS Girls should ABSOLUTELY be involved in planning.. I made my kids research and come up with three tourist sites in each city we went to.. sweat equitity for getting great trips.. plus kids need to be involved so they don't whine.

Tell your husband to take a chill pill.. or let him come on here and I will tell him.. lol
My husband knew I wasn't a stupid woman when I suggested I take my son the first time.. and I was alone, not even with another woman and two grown "kids" like you !

Ps .. all places are safe in western Europe.. so just choose places that appeal to you.. Greek islands are a hoot too.. we are going there next May.. and my dd and her step sister are going to meet us there !

pps if hubby is really freaked out and you really do not feel comfortable.. I will suggest the Rick Steves tours.. they do not leave at 7 am.. they spend two nights in each place.. and the groups are only 26-28 people maximum in each tour..

They are not cheap tours.. but they include more then most.. and no tipping..

Go on the Rick Steves website.. click on the Tours section.. then click on the reviews and Scrapbook section.. then you can read others people tour reports and look at photo essays they submit..
As for tours.. they do attract active people.. so not grumpy old 80 yr olds .. average age is a bit younger.. and if you simply look at the Scrapbooks you will easily see all ages on the tours.
They also do something called "my way"( or something like that) tours .. which are tours where they arrange your hotels and bus transport between each city.. but then you explore on your own.

Thank you all for your suggestions. They are much appreciated. Re: our safety, I was robbed when I went to Europe many years ago. We were on a train in the south of France and I had my money on a purse around my neck, the conductor woke me up for my passport and it was all wedged in a crack by the door. The police were called and when they came, they suspected we were gassed so we would keep sleeping and they could take our money. I was the only one whose money he/she/they got, though. He worries about that and us getting lost, etc. And yes, he should take a chill pill! I've asked friends on FB too, and all have said to plan it ourselves. Girls are helping with the planning, too. One is away at school in NYC so over Christmas break we will be getting the trip planned. It sounds like with research we can do this and have a great time. Thank you all !

These days compartment/corridor trains are the exception, it's almost always open-plan airplane-style seating, so the kind of robbery you describe is even less likely - certainly on the Eurostar between London and Paris and the major high-speed train systems.

Apart from the obvious big-city things like keeping your wits about you on public transport (not leaving bags open and valuables on display), and avoiding scammers and other people trying to be over-"helpful" in places where there's likely to be a predominance of tourists, there isn't much to worry about.

On the whole europe is much safer than the US - since they don;t have massive numbers of drunk and mentally ill running around blasting away with assault weapons.

In very heavily tourist areas there is a risk of pickpocketing - but if you are very careful with your belongings this should not be a problem. Thee people just want to grab a wallet and get away - no interest in confronting anyone.

As for the trip - much better to organize it on your own so you can see/do exactly what you want - as opposed to least common denominators with lots of stops for "shopping" you don;t want and long days sitting on a bus.'

I would definitely stick with 2 places so you can get a real feel for those places. What language(s)? have you daughters studied - so they can get a chance to use them. On out trips to France both DDs loved the opportunity to use what they were learning in school and very proud that they could maneuver aorund, order meals, shop etc on their own in french (although they loved a lot of places in London as well).

I would encourage your daughters to get involved in the planning and use the Let's Go Student Guides to find out which student pubs or cafes to hang out in the evenings. Also, to explore local opportunities based on their specific interests. Our both loved dance so we made sure to include a couple of ballets, as well as some riding in the Bois de Boulogne.

The train between London and Paris takes less than 2.5 hours and you won't be sleeping.

<<On the whole europe is much safer than the US - since they don;t have massive numbers of drunk and mentally ill running around blasting away with assault weapons.>>

What a ridiculous and moronic statement consistent with the left-wing echo chamber that NYtrav lives in but completely divorced from reality. Good gosh, just play up the fallacious stereotype to the Europeans and Americans who don't know any better (evidently, they're just like NYtrav in their ignorance level). Absolutely preposterous and contrary to reality (the DECREASE in gun violence in the US over the past two decades is huge; good thing the facts and NYtrav's realities don't mix).

And the fact is that violent crime in Europe is done primarily at knifepoint - ask any police officer if they'd rather deal with someone holding a gun or someone holding a knife in close quarters, the universal answer would be the gun.

All that said, Europe is generally safe but the pickpockets abound. So do scammers. So do petty thieves. All in greater frequency than in the US. Keep your stuff with you - no thin-strap day bags (or whatever the term is) for your money and valuables. Don't hang your bag over the back of the chair when you're eating. Don't hang your camera by the strap over your chair or leave it on the table (if you actually use a real camera now instead of just a phone).

If you do normally carry some model of personal protection other than a firearm (mace, taser, etc), you need to check the country by country regulations. Many do NOT allow you to, in essence, act in self-defense (see: United Kingdom).

<<Or.. do London and Dublin.. both easy>>

Hmm. London is great but Edinburgh > Dublin any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Russ.. I know two police officers.. and they prefer the knife..since they have the guns.. Guns belong in police hands.. not citizens( lawful or not) except for hunting and those who live in rural areas and need them for livestock/wildlife issues.

Canada does not allow people to carry guns for "self protection" and facts support one is safer in Canada then States.. just look at the stats.

You are correct.. there are more pickpockets in Europe then Americas ( Canada and States) but most pick pockets do not use weapons in commission of their crimes.
I have personally confronted two pickpockets ( in last 35 years of visits) and in both cases they ran away and did not pull a knife or any weapon on me.. and in one case I was completely alone in a deserted metro tunnel.. would have been easy to use force if the pickpocket chose to .

Only you can weigh the positives and negatives of tours v. independent.

Doing your own planning requires a fair amount of research and a willingness to adapt when things don't go perfectly. For some people, that's almost like having a "job" as opposed to a relaxing time. It's all in your personal approach.

I do think safety is a concern for two women traveling alone in a strange place where they may not speak the language or understand the customs. It's not a deal-breaker, but be aware that thieves and scammers target vulnerable tourists. And anyone who says, "You're safer there than in [your home state/city/country]," doesn't understand that you're a lot less vulnerable in your own [home state/city/country].

I'm not trying to scare you, but some experienced travelers here have what I consider to be a flippant attitude and an inability to put themselves in the shoes of a novice. For instance, I bet you know all the places you in your home city that you shouldn't wander into. Do you also know those places in Rome?

"Concern for 2 women traveling"? First of all - it is 4 and not 2. and second - are they feeble minded? Just fell off the turnip truck? Don't know not to wander down dark alleys alone at 3 am?

I find your remark to be incredibly condescending and infantilizing when referring to 4 grown women of presumably normal intelligence. (But then I wasn't raised to think of myself as either helpless or feeble-minded. And didn't think this was a big deal when I went for the first time when I was 19.)

On our first family trip to London and Paris our DDs - then 11 and 14 - went off on their own a couple of times during the day to shop or browse or just revisit a favorite place - because this is SAFE for people of normal capabilities. No we didn't let them stay out alone at night at that age - but IMHO major cities in europe - along with the public transit - is not a major life challenge.

Like Ny... we allowed our children to have some occasion to wander out on street alone.
At 13 my son regularily left the hotel in the early evening ( still light out) to go get some junk food or McDonalds from down the street.. sometimes I was just too pooped to go out after dinner.. so 10 euros and off he went to get the constant flow of snacks he seemed to need .
And once when in Paris I was dreadfully ill .. could not leave hotel room period.. and on that day by 2 pm my 11 yr old was starving.. so I let her go down the street by herself to a nearby Pauls to grab herself a sandwich. It was middle of day and less then a block and she somehow lived.

So four adult women.. novice or not.. are not incapable of travelling without being accompanied around, sorry.. experienced or not.. the girls are college students( don't know what the moms are) .. and if a college student is not capable of walking down a street, finding a museum, or learning how to use a bus or metro system.. then perhaps they should stay home. And I do not say that because tours are bad.. I did in fact suggest one that might be suitable. .but because they do not NEED a tour if they would rather enjoy it at their pace.. and have the choice to fit their plans to their budget.

PS we were ALL inexperienced once.

Just allay your husband's fears with the frank fact that JUST because you would be in a tour group would not keep you from getting robbed. The tour guide is not your personal body-guard--or your mother/father!

I'm excited for you for the trip. You and she are going to have so much fun planning!

AZ

'What a ridiculous and moronic statement consistent with the left-wing echo chamber that NYtrav lives in but completely divorced from reality.'

You write exwactly as NYCfoofSnob - you married to each other ?

Since you are talking about stats : coming from UNDP.org (look for the abbreviation if it doesnt' ring a bell' :

Homicide rate in the period 2008-2011 (per 100 000 inhabitnats) followed by population in prison (per 100 000 too)
US : 4,7 / 716
Canada : 1,5 / 118
Germany : 0,8 / 79
France : 1,2 / 98
Belgium : 1,8 / 108
Singapore : 0,3 / 230

Worse homicide rate than US : Baltic countries (Lith : 6,4, ESt : 4,8)Cuba 5, Argentinia 5;5 Russia is 9%.

Then in the not so well develpoed countries, you'll find death rates > 20 in Bahamas, Trinidad, Panama, Jamaica, St Lucia, Venezuela, mexico,

Worst countries are Honduras (92) and El Salvador

BigRuss: I like your posts and generally (almost always actually) agree w/ you, but that one was nutso - meant in the <i>nicest</i> possible way of course.

>>I do think safety is a concern for two women traveling alone in a strange place where they may not speak the language or understand the customs. <<

vincenzo32951, you <i>are</i> kidding - right? What makes you think a naive/clueless woman is at any greater risk than a naive/clueless man? >) But since the OP doesn't sound naive OR clueless I wouldn't worry.

What part of my statements are nutso? Cops in the US (including the ones I know locally) worry about knives more than guns in close quarters because they can effectively handle gun wielders (European cops cannot because they have little experience with them and European cops are not prepared for those encounters). Knives are like snakes that twist and slash easily. Go take any self-defense class dealing with such close-quarter fighting and your instructor, if he's worth anything, will tell you the same (best bet - Krav Maga because they'll teach you to disarm someone and incapacitate him quickly).

Claiming that people run around US cities shooting them up with AK47s is nutso. That's what NYTrav claimed and she's off her head in doing so.

The simple fact is that the US homicide rate has fallen dramatically in the past 20 years (indeed, as the incarceration rate has increased . . . ). You can debate that as much as you all want, but it is a simple fact. NYC alone has nearly 1800 FEWER homicides per year than it did under Mayor Dinkins in the early 90s (data through 2012, the rate has actually gone up recently thanks to DeBlasio but is still comparatively low). That has nothing to do with gun control (the Brady Bill was in the mid-80s), it's a question of policing.

The US homicide rate for non-black non-urban Americans is higher than Europe in general, but about 1/2 the level of the misleading stats pariswat posted above (and those are NOT percentages - Russian murder rates are not 9% and have not been since the 1930s). This is true. This is especially not good (or rather, fairly horrendous) for blacks, especially those who live in American cities, unfortunately, because the murder rate among black Americans is nearly 20 per 100,000 (which drives up the overall US rate; and before we go off on a different tangent, note that murderers and victims are usually of the same race).

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/b...ped-countries/

Travelers to the US don't normally go to the worst US cities (read: not Camden or Detroit).

All that said, any time you leave your bloody house you have some risk. In major European cities, the risk is primarily pickpockets and purse-snatchers. Major tourist areas are safe.

That said, I wouldn't walk around the council flats or banlieues that ring some of those old cities. http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today...00/9772018.stm

Getting back to the topic, how fun. DH and I are starting to plan our DD's graduation trip, though she decided sometime last year where she wants to go - Barcelona, then from there to the Dordogne area of France, and finishing in Paris.

Re safety, if one of the daughters goes to school in NYC, it's likely that she now has enough street smarts to be a very good travel companion. Your biggest problem might be that you are having such a good time that you forget to pay attention at times, or in areas, where you should be paying attention (i.e., getting on and off public transportation, deserted areas at night, etc.)

Get a bunch of travel videos from your local library, or netflix or Amazon, and get yourselves together to watch them. Also, before then, talk about what each of you wants from the trip, what you like to do and what you don't want to do. For example, museums or art, interests in particular eras of history, shopping, walking, lots of cafe time, no early starts, some time in rural areas, that sort of thing.

You might want to try to fit in some time for the younger women to do something by themselves, or the more mature women to do so. And keep in mind that the younger set will be of legal drinking age.

I fail to see how the falling homicide rate in the US has anything to do with the MUCH lower rate in much of europe.

This is like when did you stop beating your wife!

Europe is much safer in terms of violent crime - and while areas with huge conglomerations of tourists do have a number of pickpockets - that might be enough to head you away from Las Ramblas in Barcelona - but not most places in most cities.

Obviously statistics can be twisted to show almost anything.

We let our kids wander around Europe by themselves at 9, 6 and 3.

Sorry.. a knife handler cannot be disarmed unless at arms reach.. a gun handler you can just shoot. as it is assumed you could just shoot them so therefore deadly force from a distance is permitted.

I suppose if American cops figure its ok to shoot a knife handler who is within a distance from them is ok.. then yes.. knives are better for them. Shoot first.. justify later why you used deadly force right away..

Sorry.. a knife handler cannot be disarmed unless at arms reach.. a gun handler you can just shoot. as it is assumed you could just shoot them so therefore deadly force from a distance is permitted.

I suppose if American cops figure its ok to shoot a knife handler who is within a distance from them is ok.. then yes.. knives are better for them. Shoot first.. justify later why you used deadly force right away..

I was once mugged in Paris by an old woman with a stale baguette.

We have friends who have never traveled and they have the same fear. It is very hard to overcome an irrational fear and coaxing will do little good.

While a tour afford some protection, it is not ironclad. And it certainly will not protect you from the local merchants with whom the tour agency has an agreement. It is simply another form of theft.

We have spent considerable time in all the places you want to visit except Greece. And my wife and her sister who was 74 at the time walked the 500 mile Camino across northern Spain on their own.

No one can assure another's safety anywhere. But if you have your wits about you, there should not be a problem.

A very good point has been made about tours.. they do not guarantee your safety.The guide is not your bodyguard. And being a tour only makes you more attractive to pickpockketss in some way.. you stand out, you may be listening to your guide etc.
Also, you do get some free time.. would you spend that in your hotel room alone?

"My husband's concern is our safety... he has never been anywhere other than Canada and thought a group tour would be safer for us."

I have been fortunate to travel solo to MANY places in Europe and Asia, and the ONLY time I was concerned about my safety was the ONE time I was with others -- because I was attending to what THEY were saying, I forgot to think about the space immediately around me, until someone nearly grabbed my purse!

I see few merits and many disadvantages to going with a group, most of which have already been mentioned.

Enjoy!

>>And being a tour only makes you more attractive to pickpockketss in some way.. you stand out, you may be listening to your guide etc.<<

LOL.

Just got back last night from our self-planned three week trip in Sicily. During our travels we observed many different tour groups.

From our perspective these are the negatives to group tours:

The tour aims to address the most popular attractions, even if these aren't always the "best" things to see/do in an area.

A tour often stays in hotels on the outer fringes of an area (so the buses can drive in an area). This leaves you (the tour group person) stuck in a locale that might not offer easy/convenient access when you just want to walk around on your own.

You'll often be tagging behind that umbrella-carrying tour leader like a gaggle of geese without the possibility to take five or ten minutes to wander off to explore that intriguing little alleyway that just called to you.

A tour does not offer you the opportunity to linger at sites you enjoy or to avoid sites that do not call to you.

Do you really need a tour group leader to do things like wander around a colorful market?

There is probably very little flexibility or allowance for making changes on the fly. For example, if your tour group is in a locale for two days and the excursion for one day is better done on a good weather day, you will end up doing it on the bad weather day just because it was pre-scheduled that way. OTOH, if you are on your own, you just wake up in the morning and look at the weather and decide which of the two days will be better for what you want to do.

From our perspectives, these are the pluses to a tour:

There will be someone who knows the area and the route to deliver you from place to place, so you will not have to figure out bus & train schedules or how to drive in an unfamiliar area.

You probably won't get lost when in transit.

No one has mentioned costs: You can do things much cheaper on your own than on a tour group.

What might be fun for two moms and two daughters to do is to choose two places you want to locate, and get an apartment each place. That way you can all have your separation and your togetherness (and some breathing space). If you and the other mom want to get up earlier, you can go into the living room while the teens sleep in during the morning. Just doing things like going to the local market for snacks to take back can be as much (or more) fun than running around non-stop to all of the standard must-see sites.

Have fun whatever you choose.