twinmomfair

I am trying to plan a 12-13 day trip to Europe with DH, 2 - 14yr girls and 1 - 14 yr boy - brother, sister and cousin. How many countries should we try and do? Ones on the list are UK, France, Germany, Italy. Should we fly in and out of same place? Should we fly between places, rent car, take train. Have noticed sites for apartments and monastaries to stay. Because there are 5 of us would this be more economical? I'm beginning to think we should limit this trip to a couple of countries. Should I use a travel agent? Any suggestions of things teens would like (Paris bike tour, cooking class?) would be greatly appreciated. I've never been to Europe and DH travels there for work but has never had time to sightsee.

julia_t

Welcome to this forum. You will get loads of advice here - and the search function is great too, check it out (eg 'teens in paris' and you get hundreds of answers, same with other cities).

I think from what I have read here that most advice will be for you to do 2 cities, 3 at most. Take off your travelling days and you are only left with 10 days. And fly open-jaw into say London, take the Eurostar to Paris and fly out of Paris. Doing that you might be able to fit in a day trip or two, or spend a couple of days in Normandy, or see some of the English countryside.

It also depends very much on what you all want to do, so you will need to think long and hard about what each person wants to see and do, and try to come up with some sort of plan from which you can start to research what is actually possible. You may decide to do just one country - say Italy, and spend your time in Rome, Florence and Venice, which could work well.

With 5 people I would definitely recommend renting apartments both for economy and the increased space you get.

And if you do go to Paris the Fat Tire Bike Tour is really good fun for teens. My teens loved it.

Hopefully you will get more responses later.

ben_haines

Six years ago I started a collection of notes from this forum of what parents had aid about Paris and London. I have pared out notes relevant to infants, and here are the results

PARIS

1. ACTIVITIES

You can rent bicycles in the Bois de Boulogne (there's a sort of amusement park there, too),

he “Pariscope” site is in French

http://www.timeout.com/paris/kids/


Ballet. http://www.pariscope.fr/cgi-o2/MusiqueGenre?ballet

Opera. http://www.pariscope.fr/cgi-o2/MusiqueGenre?opera
Opera de Paris Bastille, 33K18 Metro Bastille
Opera Comique, 19F13 Metro Richelieu Drouot
Opera Garnier, 18F12 Metro Opera

Roller-blading on Friday nights. http://www.pariscope.fr/patinoires.shtml

5.2 ACCOMODATION: APARTMENTS

Find one with a washer/dryer (usually one piece of equipment). Soooo nice to toss a load in before bed and awake to clean stuff. It's washed and dried in the same unit, through water-sucking, not hot air). Being able to store a supply of juice boxes, milk, water...wine...is so helpful with a group, no matter what the ages. If the kids like cereal for breakfast, you can buy almost any of their favourite brands in the grocery stores such as Franprix. Unless the place has an elevator, try to book one on the ground or first floor - those winding stairs in most apartment buildings are no fun with a stroller.

Lessors:

Nancy is an American who represents private owners. She has a wide range of prices and locations: http://www.albany.net/~nracnyfr/parisapt.html

Has apartments in the Bastille area: [email protected]

We rented a delightful apartment 4 years ago: my kids were 11 and 15. It was Orion Hotel de Louvre, walking distance to all the great sights across from the Louvre. The weekly rate was very reasonable and you could have breakfast in their "breakfast room"


9. EATING ON THE STREET

"Hot-dogs": long French rolls (about a foot long) with a weiner or sausage and cheese baked in the middle. He loved them...and the adults had one once for a quick meal and thought they were good.

A baguette with ham & cheese.

Crepes and sandwiches bought on street corners. Sweet: chocolate crepes, banana crepes, cinnamon & sugar crepes, and nutella crepes (hazelnut spread). Savoury: cheese, ham, eggs or a combination
There's a creperie, or at least a booth selling them, freshly made, at nearly every corner whether in Saint Germain and Quartier Latin. Crepes au Chocolat, au jambon, ao fromage, whatever filling your kids choose. And it's quite cheap and much better than hamburgers.

Fondant au chocolate

Warm goat cheese pannini

Ice cream stands

Frites

Sandwiches

grilled sandwiches

Barbecued chickens

Bakeries

Picnics

Going to the American movies for sugared popcorn
At the movies popcorn and candy were not up to US standards!

Rue de Buci, on the Left Bank, a street of food. You go from shop to shop, one for bread, one for cheese, oysters shucked right there on the street, pastries and tarts

From a correspondence of 21 March on Fodor’s forum. Rue Mouffetard street market in the Latin Quarter- it is the most 'international' of the outdoor markets, with some foods that may be too spicy for some children. Indian curries, African and Moroccan spiced meats and lemons, Italian cured olives, and Merguez, a spicy Algerian sausage that's eaten like a hot dog. It's pronounced "mair-ghez",



13. CAFES AND RESTAURANTS: FOOD

French restaurants, even fancy ones, serve simple things like omelette, jambon-frites, steak-frites and poulet roti-frites

There's lots of chicken and steaks, and parents can ask for no sauce for their children. Steak (beef) tastes really different - gamier than American beef. Meat is usually served much rarer than in American restaurants. Ask for bien cuit to have it well-done. Plain steak and fries might not taste like what they are used to. My kids found out that rather than eating what look like what they are used to but taste different, they rather eat what looked different but tasted good. The chicken is chickenier - I don't know how else to describe it. It does not taste like McNuggets or KFC. Coq is really gamy.

There is no such a thing as a children’s menu.. Most restaurants will be glad to prepare a "demie-portion" (half serving) of just about anything on the menu.

The quiches, au jambon, au fromage, Lorraine, des croissants, so many options

Chevre chaud, or warm goat cheese salad, is likely to please your kids, too. It's delicious, just green salad with tiny toasts with goat cheese on the top. It tastes great, not an exquisite flavour, though, that your kids would reject. Another correspondent: they were not much of a salad fan in the US but they fell in love with French goat cheese salad.

Saumon Fume, smoked salmon, close to Nova for a Jewish kid.

A ham (avec jambon) sandwich. Devout eaters of French's yellow mustard should bring their own. Those fabulous jambon sandwiches will come with some fabulous spicy Dijon mustard unless you ask for it plain.

There are ham sandwiches; there are cheese sandwiches: it's hard to find a ham and cheese sandwich (with the exception of toasted ham and cheese [croque monsieur]). We usually resort to ordering one of each and combining ingredients.

Tuna sandwich - it is not tuna salad; it is chunks of tuna (like out of the can before you mush it up with mayo) usually with tomato and lettuce

Egg sandwich - it is not egg salad; it is slices of hard-boiled egg, sometimes with tomato and lettuce.

Most sandwiches are made with butter as the only condiment.

A croque monsieur (grilled ham and cheese sandwich -- usually it's gruyere or similar) at a cafe or bistro

Salade verte, green salad, meaning lettuce.

A brasserie or Cafe may have very good hamburgers.

Cheese, fruit and bread were smilingly assembled as an entree in cafes and some restaurants.

A lot of French cheeses are very stinky and strong - Emmenthal is what we know as Swiss Cheese; Gruyere is pretty mild. If you go into a cheese store, or to a stand at an outdoor market, you can ask for a sample - and advice.

Beautifully prepared desserts look much more appetizing than institutionally made globs found in ordinary US family restaurants. There are two French desserts that I especially enjoy, "Tarte Tartin " (apple pie, served warm, with vanilla ice cream) and Poire Helene (boiled pear, with hot chocolate sauce and vanilla ice cream). I bet your kids will love both, and you will, too.



Stores along the Champs-Elysees http://www.magicparis.com/champselys...FrameResto.htm

the 9th floor of the Samarataine department store for the view.

In residential neighborhoods, there are charming 'toy shops' stocked full of gorgeous handmade childrens' toys and clothing. The 4th and 5th arrondissements have many such shops. http://www.timeout.com/paris/kids/to...bookshops.html

Galleries Lafayette Toy Department. Also, a fashion shoiw there. 40 Boulevard Haussman, Metro Chausse d’Antin. http:// www.galerieslafayette.com.

Flea market - Marche aux Puces de St. Ouen.

6. ENTERTAINMENTS. The “Pariscope” site is in French

http://www.timeout.com/paris/kids/

Go to the tourist office on the Champs Elysees just down from the Arc de
Triomple -- they have a sheet which tells what's on for different ages and
tastes all over Paris for the month of June.


17. LOCATIONS. Places lie thus.

West and North near the former outer walls: Bois de Boulogne, Musical Museum, Montmatre, Natural History Museum, Parc de la Villette

Right Bank, from west to east.
Bateaux mouches
Galleries Lafayette
Opera Garnier
Opera Comique
Louvre
Jardin des Enfants aux Halles
Centre Pompidou
Picasso Museum
Opera de Paris Bastille

Left Bank, from west to east
Aquaboulevard
Eiffel Tower
Champ de Mars
Jardin du Luxembourg
Church of Notre Dame
The Catacombs
Musee des Arts D'Afrique et d'Oceanie
Bois de Vincennes

LONDON

Southern Band

A phone call or e-mail to the Science Museum at South Kensington in London (phone 020 7938 8111: web site http://www.nmsi.ac.uk/welcome.html: address [email protected] ) would get you a list of their activities for bright children, or they may be listed in "Kid's out in London"
The Natural History Museum, South Kensington. Museum with dinosaurs. http://www.nhm.ac.uk/,
Visiting London with teens, make sure you go to the Victoria & Albert, one of the most beautiful museums I've ever seen in the world. Head for the British History section, where they have "discovery areas" where children can learn by doing, and study areas to learn in depth about artifacts and way of life in the past.
food hall.
Our children enjoyed shopping on Carnaby St., and in Covent Garden, as already mentioned
National Army Museum, Chelsea, Sloane Square and a bus: rather a way to go, so perhaps you should sadly miss it.
The Imperial War Museum. WWI & II exhibits: you can clamber on tanks and in warplanes, Lambeth North. http://www.iwm.org.uk/
The Royal Mews, Buckingham Palace, to see the Queen’s state coaches. Victoria
St James Park, Westminster
Boats on the Thames
The Cabinet War Rooms (and hearing Churchill's speeches), Westminster
Art galleries in London have great skill and experience in letting teenagers enjoy themselves. Web sites well worth a visit are http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/pl...familyfun.htm: the National Gallery on Trafalgar square
http://www.npg.org.uk/live/lecindex.asp: the National Portrait Gallery, just north east of the National Gallery
http://www.tate.org.uk/britain/programmes/families.htm: Tate Britain, south of Victoria and west of Westminster
The London Eye (big wheel), Westminster. http://www.british-airways.com/londoneye/ There is a good photo guide for 2 pounds, with labelled photos of the views in each direction. A tiny playground at the base of the wheel was great for my 5-year-old to let off steam after the ride on the wheel.
River boat rides. Open top, double-decker hop-on-hop-off tour buses.
The Sherlock Holmes Museum, Charing Cross
Shopping and watching the buskers in Covent Garden
Thames boat tours from Embankment to Tower. http://www.cockney.co.uk/river.htm#boats
St Bartholomew the Great, Barbican
The Museum of London, St Paul's. A phone call or e-mail would bring you their programme of Family Events, which are varied and active, with any amount of simple talks, role-playing and dressing up. http://www.museumoflondo.org.uk, and 020 7600 3699. Parents have specially mentioned their Blitz display.

The top of St Paul's Cathedral
Southwark Cathedral. http://max.roehampton.ac.uk/link/dswark/cath/index.htm
A good lunch is upstairs at the Market Porter pub in Borough Market. They welcome children. Since pub portions are large you might order for the boys one main dish and two plates - the pub has no objection, and this leaves space for pudding. http://alt.venus.co.uk/vpub/se1area.htm
Below the south side of London Bridge main line station is the Old
Operating Theatre, reasonably alarming. And from there it is five minutes under the station to H M S Belfast, a whole ship to explore. http://www.iwm.org.uk/belfast.htm
To go right up to see London. By lift, free, Guys Tower in Guys Hospital, London Bridge tube. By stairs, and you pay to enter, the Monument or the Dome of St Paul's.
Over the river is the Tower. I think you can buy tickets for it the day before in any tube station. It gets crowded, so you want to arrive at opening time, nine Tuesday to Saturday and ten Sunday and Monday. If there is a queue (line) for the Crown Jewels you can miss them. The time you get to view them is usually short, and there are older and finer crown jewels in Edinburgh, Budapest and Vienna. People on Fodors forum mention the good humour of the well-informed beefeaters. These lead tours but are not "tourist guides". If the Queen were to sleep in her palace of the Tower they would be responsible for her safety. http://www.tower-of-london.com/index2.html
Tower Bridge. http://www.towerbridge.org.uk/
The Tower Hill Pageant
The Ragged School Museum. You can phone: from time to time they do a re-enactment of a Victorian schoolroom using visiting children as Victorian pupils. The children's reactions are hilarious. It will show them how lucky they are. http://www.raggedschoolmuseum.org.uk/.

Greenwich, by train from Charing Cross or London Bridge. Or by Docklands Light Railway, “which is very convenient from central London. My children like riding in the front car of the driverless Docklands Light Railway to get there”. In winter the boat trip from Embankment or the Tower is cold and long, and it's not too warm in April. In fact, better go on a hot day in summer. At Greenwich: the Cutty Sark, http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search/uk...Bridge&y=y, the National Maritime Museum with hands-on rooms (captain your own sub) http://www.nmm.ac.uk/, the Meridian, and the Observatory, http://www.rog.nmm.ac.uk/

With a bag of nuts bought beforehand feed the squirrels beside the flower gardens in the top end of Greenwich Park. Nearest station is Blackheath, reached from Victoria and from London Bridge.



Northern Band

Portebello Road weekend market, including army equipment and antique guns. Notting Hill Gate tube
The London Zoo, Camden Town. http://www.londonzoo.co.uk/
Canal trips that go past the London Zoo to Camden Lock and back. You need good weather (a parent: “wait 5 minutes and it will come”).
The Camden Market, Camden Town. http://www.camdenlock.net/markets.html
Madame Tussaud's, Baker Street. http://www.madame-tussauds.com/ Popular with many children: I find it expensive and pointless.
The Virgin Records Megastore (open until midnight or thereabout), Oxford Circus. http://virginmega.com/
Shopping in Carnaby Street
Hamley's Toy Shop, Regent Street, Oxford Circus. Five floors of toys: bring your credit card.
British Museum, Holborn. This has an audiotour tape with colour guide book which my son loved following like a scavenger hunt - we stayed in the Museum for over two hours (a record for him) and he still remembers it as great fun. The best rooms for children this age are not the boring old Greek and Roman rooms, but downstairs the Egyptian mummies and Rosetta Stone and upstairs the Roman British Room and the next door Anglo Saxon room, with gold hordes and a ship burial. (If you read them the bit about Grendel's mother from a translation of "Beowulf" at breakfast the day you go you'll have them in the mood). Not far away are early twentieth century radio sets. http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/.
Another parent writes: The British Museum -- not too long a visit. Mine like the Egyptian rooms in particular.
Good lunches Mondays to Fridays are north of the museum, in the MacMillan Hall of the University's Senate House, and for spicy Asian and Mexican food (if they let you in) the students' refectory of the School of Oriental and African Studies on the north east corner of Russell Square. Or children liked The Spaghetti House, Russell Square. http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/jon/hipparch/hotel.txt




Things to Miss. For teenagers these are many.

Buckingham Palace: a large and dull building. Most of the year you can't
enter, and in high summer it's expensive. If you want a good palace, try St
James Palace, between Buckingham Palace and Piccadilly. But there's no
great point. What you can do is inspect the guardsman. Has he polished his
boots ? Cleveland Row. Tube Green Park
On the other hand: "My son loved Buckingham Palace. Someone was waving a handkerchief from one of the windows of the palace, and he was convinced it must be the Queen".
The changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace. The change at Horse Guards
Parade at eleven (Sundays at ten) is easier to see, less crowded, and more
fun. But again, not specially worth while. While we adults thought the Changing of the Guard at Buck Palace was boring, children aged 14, 13 and 10 really liked it.

St Paul's Cathedral. Looks like an overblown Duke's living room, and costs a lot. Even Westminster Abbey is a drag, crowded, hard to see things, and hard to understand unless you've read a lot of English history. If you want to see a church, the most atmospheric is the twelfth century St Barthomolew's the Great, St Paul's tube, and the most open and pleasant is the fourteenth century Southwark Cathedral, London Bridge tube.


To rest your feet and excercise your minds please, a week before you go, search at Victoria Research Web Haines Lectures. Here are a few events already published, but more are to come.

Tuesday 5 June. 5pm. Witchcraft, politics and religion in 17th century England: the case of Anne Bodenham. International Relations Room, Institute of Historical Research, Senate House. Russell Square tube

Tuesday 5 June. 5.15. Gardens, parks and conceptions of landscape in England at the end of the Middle Ages: Artificial compositions. Ecclesiastical History Room, Institute of Historical Research, Senate House, Russell Square tube
Thursday 7 June. 5pm. The Baby Ivies: preschools and privilege in the USA. Germany Room, Institute of Historical Research, Senate House, Russell Square tube

Friday 8 June. 4pm. Localisation. Room Mech Eng 311, Imperial College London, South Kensington tube

Tuesday 12 June. 6pm What Americans really mean by freedom. Old Theatre, London School of Economics. Holborn tube

Tuesday 12 June. 6pm. Chile and the Cold War. Low Countries Room, Institute of Historical Research, Senate House, Russell Square tube


These notes may be useful if you go to these two cities. If you can afford a night in Venice please do have one, mostly for strolling and for having coffee on back lanes. It is like living a dream. You can afford it if you eat take-away meals. Travel costs are high between Paris, Italy and Germany
but you can cut those, cut time, and cut your hotel bill if you share a couchette for six. This is a room with six simple beds. You will see pictures and fares if you search under Man in Seat 61 Italy, and book through a travel agent named on these pages.

Please write if I can help further.

Ben Haines, London
[email protected]

enzian

What a great guide Ben Haines has given you! Building on that, I would suggest you visit London for 3-4 days, then spend a few days touring by car (Stonehenge, Avebury, Salisbury, Bath), then take the train to Paris for the rest of the time. Fly into London and out of Paris.

London will be the most expensive. Apartments ar the best way to keep costs down in both cities. People here can suggest short-stay apartments for London. There are many webistes for Paris apartments; we used www.VacationInParis.com and were very pleased. It is an American company; you pay with a credit card in dollars, and they do book for stays as short as 3 or 4 nights.

Rick Steves guidebooks are very good for first-timers to these two places; the focus is on tips for using your time and money well. You might check your library.

twinmomfair

First, thanks for the weath of info. I've spent the morning cruising the internet and Fodor's. Ben, your research is incredible! I've barely scratched the surface with all the links. Thanks!

Julia, checked out Fat Tire Bikes - the kids loved that idea. I thought the trip to Monet's garden sounded beautiful.

It looks like there would be plenty to see and do in UK and France. However, my daughter really wants to see Italy.

I hope there is a way to see all three without over doing it. If we do go to Italy should we stay north in Milan or figure a way to get to Rome? I'm a little concerned about the cost of getting to Italy from Paris. And if we do that where should we fly home from, Italy? Home is Dallas, Texas.

The good news is I'm starting to get an idea of what will work for us. Just need to settle on whether we do 2 or 3 countries.

suze

If you do choose to include something in Italy at the end of the trip, what about Venice? You can go Paris to Venice by either overnight train or flight. If you were able to arrange flying home from Venice, that might fulfil your daughters desire for a peak at Italy.

I say Venice because it is smaller and truly unique. Magical. I think Rome because of its size, is more of a challenge to plan and tackle.

Russ

"Have noticed sites for apartments and monastaries to stay. Because there are 5 of us would this be more economical?"

You've bitten off some intimidating and expensive cities for a group of 5. If you'll be doing London and Paris, I'd suggest a break of two-three days in between in some smaller place as well.

The D-Day beaches of Normandy are educational as well as, well, beaches. Bayeux is a nice town to visit.

You mentioned biking. You might head up to Bruges, a must-see small city for many, and bike the canals and country roads.

If you're contemplating Germany, it's not that far over to one of the best destinations in the country, the Mosel/Rhine region - several medieval castles to tour, biking and hiking very popular, apartments much cheaper of course in this more rural region. If you're there on JUne 24, there's a huge biking event on the Rhine between about Koblenz and Ruedesheim - "Tal Total". The main roads are shut down to autos and thousands of bicyclists and rollerbladers take over. Roadside food stands, music, and the like. Bingen's on Jazz festival is on that same weekend. Reserve a place soon if you want a good selection.

http://www.taltotal.de/rheinlauf.php

Hostels might work for you too. Most market to families these days and have 4-6 bed rooms available with private bath. The one in Bingen is brand spanking new - very sharp - or try the castle-hostel in Bacharach, a medieval castle-turned-inn overlooking the Rhine.

Russ

Note on flights: Frankfurt Hahn airport offers cheap flights out of the Mosel/Rhine area on Ryanair to London, should you end up booking round trip to London.

Carolina

I would stick to a maximum of 2 countries - maybe stay in London and Paris and visit places on daytrips from there if you want to.

Carolena

jgg

I agree with recommendations of either London and Paris, or Italy doing Rome, Venice and Florence. You really don't have time to do much more than that and really enjoy yourself. Your kids are the perfect age, but I know mine have preferred to spend longer in a location than to keep moving around. They love feeling like they really know a place, and how to get around, and have time to go back to their favorite patisserie or gelateria!

Here are some links to my trip reports, I hope you find them helpful.

Italy 2005 trip report
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...&tid=34599

London/Paris 2006 Trip Report
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34786762

Italy 2006 (Piedmont, Ligurian Coast, Tuscany, Rome
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34830020

Christina

I think teens often like just walking around and hanging out, maybe going into stores that have a lot of teens (like music stores), eating street food, etc. As well as the bike tour, there are the Segway tours, also, if no one mentioned that, although they are more expensive.

That's a lot of useful information Mr Haines compiled, but FYI, Pariscope hasn't been online in quite a few years now so all those links and references won't work.

cmeyer54

We've taken our two teen boys to europe several times - 2 weeks/trip. We've done 2-3 major places. DH does not like London so that has never been an option. Our combinations have been: munich/rome; florence/tuscany/venice; paris/normandy; madrid/seville/barcelona. If possible, I would recommend that you take a good luck at the travel times between locations when in Europe - take an overnight train or even fly if you can find inexpensive flights as we did in spain. You'll lose a day on each end of your trip with travel and don't want to lose more days travelling between places in Europe. Our boys loved the segway tour in Paris, guided tour of D-Day beaches and area; Spain and all of italy were HUGE hits. With 5 people, definitely look for apartments - again, be aware they may have minimum rental times and that could limit how many cities you can see.

Michel_Paris

I agree with the 2 cities choice. Perhaps you might want to substitue Amsterdam for London? You could spend 3 days in Amsterdam and cover the city fairly quite well. Then take train to Paris, fly home from there.

cmeyer54

DH and I have done amsterdam/brugge, heidelburg, baden baden, strasbourg on our own as well.