Europe trip advice
 

Hi
We are a family if 3 planning to visit europe this november.
Please check the itinerary below and advice any changes. Am interested mainly in photography. My wife wants to relax and taste all the food she can get. My daughter is a mix of both.

Days 1-2 (Nov 14-15): Milan, Italy
Explore the Duomo, Galleria Vittorio Emanuele II, and Navigli canals.
Days 3-5 (Nov 16-18): Rome, Italy
Train from Milan to Rome (~3 hours). Visit the Colosseum, Vatican City, Trevi Fountain, and Pantheon.
Days 6-7 (Nov 19-20): Venice, Italy
Train from Rome to Venice (~3.5 hours). Explore St. Mark’s Square, Rialto Bridge, and Grand Canal.
Day 8 (Nov 21): Ljubljana, Slovenia
Train from Venice to Ljubljana (~2.5 hours). Explore Triple Bridge, Ljubljana Castle, and Tivoli Park.
Day 9 (Nov 22): Lake Bled, Slovenia
Bus from Ljubljana to Lake Bled (~1 hour). Photograph Bled Castle, Island Church, and Pletna boats.
Day 10 (Nov 23): Salzburg, Austria
Train from Lake Bled to Salzburg (~4 hours). Visit Hohensalzburg Fortress and Mirabell Gardens.
Days 11-12 (Nov 24-25): Vienna, Austria
Train from Salzburg to Vienna (~3 hours). Explore Schönbrunn Palace, St. Stephen’s Cathedral, and Christmas markets.
Days 13-14 (Nov 26-27): Prague, Czechia
Train from Vienna to Prague (~4 hours). Visit Charles Bridge, Prague Castle, and Old Town Square. Enjoy the Christmas market (opens Nov 25).
Days 15-16 (Nov 28-29): Munich, Germany
Train from Prague to Munich (~4 hours). Explore Marienplatz, English Garden, and Neuschwanstein Castle. Visit Munich’s Christmas market (opens Nov 27).
Days 17-18 (Nov 30-Dec 1): Zermatt, Switzerland
Train from Munich to Zermatt (~5 hours via Brig). Photograph the Matterhorn and explore car-free streets.
Days 19-20 (Dec 2-3): Bruges, Belgium
Train from Zermatt to Bruges (~10 hours via Basel or Frankfurt). Explore Market Square, Belfry Tower, and canals. Visit Bruges’ Christmas market.
Days 21-23 (Dec 4-6): Milan, Italy
Train from Bruges to Milan (~8 hours via Paris or Frankfurt). Final days in Milan for sightseeing. Depart on Dec 6.
Thank
Sano

Welcome to Fodors. We removed the Trip Report flag, added country tags, and deleted the two duplicate threads.

Your day in Munich includes Neuschwanstein. It's a couple of hours away from the city; double the time for the round trip and you have spent half a day of very short late Fall days just traveling between the two venues. In general I think that you have not taken into account time spent getting local tickets and orienting yourself to the sight.

Welcome to the forums. OK -- reality check time :( You plan on visiting parts of seven countries/12 destinations in 21 days (days 1 and 23 are transatlantic travel days). During the short days and iffy weather of Nov/early Dec. This is worse that "If this is Tuesday, this must be Belgium" territory.

"My wife wants to relax" . . . she won't get that on this itinerary, that's for sure. For much of the route you would be spending more time checking in/packing/unpacking/checking out/in train stations and sitting on trains than seeing or doing anything. I really don't want to pile on but this plan is almost impossible.

Since apparently you are flying in/out of Milan you should think about doing JUST Italy and maybe a couple of other stops in Germany - or- Austria - or - Switzerland.

yikes, I don't think this is achievable, nor do I think this is a holiday

This itinerary, if followed, will NOT be relaxing IMO.

I don’t think you have allowed sufficient time for transportation. You mention the train times, but you also need time to get to / from train stations, check into and out of hotels, pack and unpack, got oriented, get to / from the places you wish to see, etc. That means that a 3-hour train ride generally requires at least 5 hours (if your hotels are exceptionally close to train stations) and perhaps much longer. And trains don’t always leave when you might want them to leave – have you checked the times? Marked them on a calendar to see how realistic they are?

If photography is an interest, have you considered sunrise and sunset times? Those are, I believe the “golden” times, but days are very short in much of this area at that time of year. You will have precious little time to see these places in daylight, especially if you take time for a mid-day meal. And good weather, of course, is not guaranteed – you might, for example, end up in the middle of a drenching rainstorm. Even in summer, the Matterhorn is not always visible. That’s a LONG way to go for something that might not be possible – time that you could be spending seeing a bit more of the places you are visiting.

And there is a lot to see and experience in each of these locations! I can easily understand why you would want to see them. I have greater difficulty understanding why you want to see so little of any of them. Perhaps that's just me.

And I don’t understand why you are planning to fly into and out of Milan. Fly into it or out of it, but why backtrack to it? If you’re ending up in Bruges, consider flying out of Brussels or someplace nearer to Bruges than Milan.

I’m sorry to be so critical, but I’m trying to help by pointing to the problems I see with your plan. If you really only want to glimpse a few stunning vistas and don’t mind spending a huge proportion of your time in trains, well, maybe this plan will work for you. It would NOT work for me and, as already noted, I can't imagine that anyone would find it relaxing.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I should re think about my plans then . Cut short to Italy , Germany , Austria and Switzerland. Do you guys have any good itinerary to cover all these places.
Thanks

The itinerary is crazy, you spend way too much time on trains and checking in and out of hotels.
To comment just on Belgium;
Days 19-20 (Dec 2-3): Bruges, Belgium
Train from Zermatt to Bruges (~10 hours via Basel or Frankfurt). Explore Market Square, Belfry Tower, and canals. Visit Bruges’ Christmas market.
Days 21-23 (Dec 4-6): Milan, Italy
Train from Bruges to Milan (~8 hours via Paris or Frankfurt). Final days in Milan for sightseeing. Depart on Dec 6.
means:

• December 2 all day on the train to arrive in Brugge in the evening. Check in to hotel. Maybe time for dinner in the evening.
• December 3 one day for Brugge - Belgium is not known for it's Christmas markets which are mostly the same stalls selling crappy stuff and fried foods.
• December 4 check out of hotel, make your way to train station for another full day on the train to get back to Milan

That is just crazy. If your wife wants a relaxing holiday with good food, I am pretty sure she will hate this trip.

Holy smokes, nothing relaxing about that itinerary. It's a death march.

Suggest you head back to the drawing board and take a good long look at transit times, hours of daylight, etc.

I don't want to pile on but ya too much in too little time. I'd think about dropping any single day stops.

From a photographic view point the shorter daylight hours actually can work for you. What you'll lose is the harsh mid day light. The bigger issue will be gray overcast skies. Gray skies act like a big softbox but it is something to consider. Possibly rain. You need to plan for weather. Either weather proof gear or protection. If I'm reading the charts right you might get lucky and have a mildly flooded St. Mark's square in Venice on your dates.

OTOH your family might not appreciate the short days.

Does your wife intend to follow you around? Or will you be free to visit the cities early morning or even nights while she sleeps? Venice at night /evening has its's own photogenic spots. But so does Rome. One advantage of the shorter days is you can sleep in to 6am or something outrageous. Unlike summer when you might be getting up at 3am to hopefully catch the sunrise only to find the view blocked by a rogue cloud

Note: The OP's post # 7 was caught up in the spam filter and just released. Posts 8, 9 and 10 did not see the OP's new message.

I was afraid my post was not clear enough. Not Italy AND Germany AND Austria AND Switzerland. You don't have time for all that. What I meant was just Italy but IF you just had to visit another country you could do Itialy and a bit of Germany OR Austria OR Switzerland. in other words one additional country -- not three.

This is based on flying in/out of Milan - I assumed you have already booked the flights.

Maybe cut down to just three countries. Prioritize.

Ask your family members what their top 3 locations are. Locations, not countries.

Plan a trip around those.

To piggyback on this suggestion, that is if those locations work together logically and logistically. It would hardly be worth it if the top 3 are Lake Bled. Bruges, and Milan, for instance.

One tip to also consider is think of itinerary in terms of nights. 4 nights allows for 3 full (albeit short) days for sightseeing and photography. And, what are your plans in each location if weather too dreary to photograph? Some areas have a lot of options indoors. Others (like Lake Bled) do not. Those are things to consider as well as all of the scaling back you need to do.

Certainly not at all relaxing!
But, your wife will have abandoned you after the first few says to a week, so maybe she can relax then!

Actually bad weather is better for photography. What's bad is mid day full sun beach weather.

Thanks for all the replies. As you would've noticed am a terrible planner. We have been to Switzerland before , that was in 2019 , without any planning. Booked tickets 3 days ago and after reaching Zurich hotel only we started planning what's next. Those 10 days was mostly on Train since we took Swiss rail pass. Lauterbrennen was my favourite. It was amazing. This time I want it to be more enjoyable and relaxing.
I would appreciate if you guys can share some itinerary from nov14th to nov30( cut short one week from previous).
We just need to go somewhere we have never been to, preferably by car.
Rome and Venice is in our wish list.
Not interested in beaches anymore (as am from Perth Australia).
Thanks
Sano

If Rome and Venice are your priorities, then that's easy to figure out for 2 weeks. There's enough in and around both cities for an extensive visit that could fill all your time. That can combine photography and relaxation.

However, it is true I normally recommend at least 3 days of car rental for a 2 week trip to Europe in order to experience the landscapes of village Europe. For photography purposes, what I like to do is search for a place on Flickr and you can filter for the exact time of year you will be there. That way you can see what other photographers have experienced. No sense in going to a place that is stunning in July but depressing in November if that's when you are traveling.

Oh yes, I can't count how many times I've been on vacation with gorgeous weather and wished it started raining...... Damn this beautiful weather, I say to myself, my vacation photos are ruined!

Venice and Rome absolutely 100% do not require driving. As shelemm mentioned, renting a car for a few days for touring around Tuscany or some other more rural area makes sense. But for places like Milan, Venice, Florence and Rome -- you do not need nor want a car.