Michael

China has gone through enormous changes, but any close reading of news reports and viewing the recent NPR series indicates that the changes are often limited to industrial production areas. In fact, having abandoned the barefoot doctor system, the health system in the Chinese countryside has deteriorated. I would not use the economic changes in China as an indication of a rising tide, and if anything, pollution is worse than ever, and worse than what Julies reports.

huckleberryFinn

Dukey: "Relax...nobody who has actually BEEN to some of these places like you have and has seen a lot of the same stuff you have is going to get on your case."

I beg to differ. The OP is blind as are many of the follow ups. I don't dispute her eyes, she sees THINGS fine; it's her interpretive vision that's lacking. Oddly enough, vision does not always require first-hand experience in the physical sense to which you allude. Nevertheless, these eyes have been, and seen.

tripgirl

Sheesh...

I think some of you are therapist wanna bees....

All julies did was report her experience, done, finished, what more do you want out of her....

Julies, we visited Asia two years ago, Japan, China and Thialand and I loved it, but I did have many moments of yearning for Europe. Perhaps its because we've been to Europe so much, we are comfortable ther; anything outside your comfort zone is hard to take.

You had an adventure and I am sure as you step back from it with time, you'll realize even more things about it to put into your travel memory whether they are pleasant or shocking memories.

Thanks for your report!!!

taitai

Julies:

Thanks for the follow up. I read, and THINK I posted a reply on your first posting many months ago on your Europe vs. Asia dilemma.

I think one thing that is getting lost in this whole discussion is the reason WHY we all travel. Some people travel to relax and getaway from the stresses of their everyday lives. Others for warmth. Still others to pursue a passion they cannot in their own backyard (birding, skiing, seeing the Flemish Great Masters, eating kimchi, whatever). For others, it is to experience a culture or lifestyle different from one's own. For others still it might be to spend time with one's family and friends without the distractions of daily life. To escape. To celebrate. There are a million reasons.

It sounds like for the reasons that you like to travel, maybe Europe is the best destination. That is terrific and it appears as if you have found your sweet spot, so to speak. You are lucky to have the resources to enjoy it and so don't get discouraged by any negative comments. Enjoy planning your next European adventure.

Taitai

fishee

This past Dec I stepped onto the metro in Paris and headed towards an empty space at the end of one car where it looked like I could sit down

Travel tip: don't head for empty spaces on the metro when the rest of the train looks full.

There was a huge pile of human feces on a seat and smeared at the edge, as if this is how someone tried to wipe themselves. The sheer volume of fecal matter made it clear this was a very large human being. This pile of crap (on the accesible seats that face outwards) had been on the train for a quite a while since there was now just the dull stench of poo. People were actually standing and sitting in the same car, just trying to avoid the end so those back 6 rows of seats were empty. I tried to get off but the train started moving.

When I was trying to get off at the next station (my scarf wrapped around my nose and mouth) I saw a few young Asian women getting on the train at the other door -- and heading towards that "empty" space. I think one of the girls might have started to vomit as she dropped and had her hand on her mouth but the train pulled away.

I was so grossed out that I skipped lunch, and I felt naive that I wouldn't have ever expected to encounter this in Paris, our fine city of light -- the apex of civilization. It was so disturbing that I didn't repeat it to anyone (until now) as I was trying to erase the image from my mind. But it sort of complements the original post in an odd way. sorry, but felt compelled to share.

Cimbrone

If certain posters don't have anything nice to say, why say anything at all? julies didn't post so that she could receive a catalogue of her perceived character flaws. She is sharing her perspective. A couple of you would be all it would take to run me off of this board. Why don't you go pat yourselves on the back somewhere else?

Femi

Thanks for your post Julies. I understand the culture shock (and that's all it was) that you encountered.

I've often found that no matter how well I think I prepare for a trip, I'm never really, fully prepared for the encounter. More often than not I get a liberal dose of the unexpected.

Part of the reason I continue to travel.

I have no doubt that after the shock has worn off, you'll see other Asian destinations rise slowly to the top of your list

111op

Well, this forum would be terribly boring if a chorus of praise accompanies each initial post. Also I'd like to think that an adult who has lived for many years can take constructive criticisms -- both in real life and on the internet.

Anyway, I can't speak for the others, but I don't think that I said anything that was terribly rude or not nice. I'm interested in hearing more from the original poster as to why she chose Vietnam and how she went about planning this trip. Needless to say, I also hope that she'd visit another (perhaps more developed and "advanced"?) Asian country and get a different perspective.

WillTravel

I appreciate this trip report, and the honest evaluation. With such a multi-faceted experience, it's hard to write it all down accurately and capture the essence of it. I know there are few people who would have the nerve to do a biking and trekking trip of rural Vietnam. I think I lack the bravery for it myself.

Personally, I am nervous about traveling to "third-world" countries, because I know people who've gotten serious illnesses that affected their ability to work, and I don't know if I could justify taking that sort of risk to my family's financial well-being. I know this could happen if traveling to a first-world destination too, but I've just seen worse examples otherwise.

fishee

therapist wannabe's and character flaws?

I'm just urging that we have a more historially informed understanding of the relationship between the West and "the rest". There IS a relationship between the historical wealth of France and it's impoverished former colonies. It's not like "wealth" is part of the natural topography of a place. It's not some inherent geographic characteristic like "thank goodness I was born in California where it doesn't get too cold." It's not a "co-incidence" or just luck of the draw that some nations are wealthy and some aren't. One nation's wealth has a relationship to another nation's poverty -- there were/are very specific geopolitical policies and practices that produce and reproduce these inequities.

marginal_margiela

I am sorry you don't like my critcism, but I have been all over Asia (Cambodia, Thailand, India, Nepal, Sri Lanka, China, Hong Kong, Japan) and I can understand that there is terrible poverty in these countries. But, what about the positive?????????

You went all the way to Vietnam and all you have to tell us is that it was dirty???????

What food did you eat? What historic places did you see? What kind of people did you interact with?

What if I posted a report on India and I wrote:

Went to Taj Mahal. Interesting. But, more importantly, there were soda cans along the highway in Agra.


????????????????????????????????????????

Some people are travellers; some people are tourists.

Aleckii

This thread just gets more and more interesting... a good break from all the trip-planning I'm doing.

What everyone said here is spot on, ernest and true in their own way. It's just the way we phrase it in order to make it sound more... pleasurable.

This is after all, a travel forum, where people are free to express their opinions, thoughts, etc. Let's just do it in a way so as not to sound too condescending. Just sometimes words are misunderstood, then things start getting ugly.

missypie

Marginal, I don't think julies meant the post to be a full trip report. The post is specifically about thoughts and impressions.

If someone had taken a trip to Darfur and had posted about the terrible conditions there, would she be criticized for stressing those over the good things about the trip? Lots of famous people travel to troubled areas of the world, specifically to be able to draw some attention to the poor conditions.

You mentioned soda cans littering the highway, I assume to point out how silly it would be to post that. I don't know if I agree. I admit that the first time I saw a documentary about climbing Mt. Everest, I was shocked at all the litter/trash around. I had always imagined these pristine conditions ... It's not always a disservice, or whining, to point out the negatives.

fishee

There isn't genocidal warfare going on in Vietnam so I don't see how that comparison works.

Cimbrone

Calling someone's honest impressions "ignorant" and "naive" is, in my book, nasty. Perhaps some people have a lower standard for polite discourse.

And I would agree with the person who said this was not meant to be a thorough trip report, so there's no need to wonder why julies included the things she did and left out others.

When I was in Cairo, the squalor was one of the most striking things to me. Knowing that it exists is one thing and experiencing it is something else. And by the way, I loved experiencing Cairo but I have no desire to return.

julies was kind enough to share her thoughts honestly, and this is the thanks she gets?! Make excuses for yourselves if you want, but all you're doing, as I said before, is congratulating yourselves on how much more "enlightened" you are than someone else. Everyone has a different makeup. Stop expecting people to be you.

And "constructive criticisms" aren't necessary when someone is sharing their impressions.

kfusto

Julies, thanks for taking the time to post and share your thoughts.

I visited Asia once, in 1991, and have never returned nor do I desire to. I am happy to have had the experience but the conditions I witnessed were not something I care to repeat. I was totally uncomfortable with standards of hygiene, etc. in some areas of China and found it difficult to eat and drink because of the conditions there. The smells and sights alone in many areas made it impossible for me to feel comfortable there. The public market was an eye opener.

I have spent time in Europe 15 times since the mid 70s in a variety of countries. For me, this is a better choice as there are countries like Italy and Austria which draw me back again and again.

Leely

Why is this posted on the Europe board rather than the Asia board?

I think I'll go over to the US board now and post about how dirty Rome and Paris are.

marginal_margiela

fishee, thank Gucci you get it. Not everyone is as educated and intelligent as you are, however.

When someone asks me for restaurant advice in Manhattan, I will start a diatribe on all the homeless people in NYC, all the people who live in apartments without heat and hot water, the jobless rate for black women in Harlem.

Didn't like Vietnam? How about a trip to New Orleans, sweetie?

annabelle2

Julies,
I think your post is a great one for a travel forum and I am reading the responses with interest! Never a dull moment (well, maybe some) here.

I lived in Asia for 9 years (Japan & Taiwan), and have been fortunate enough to have traveled to most Asian countries, as well as 14-15 European ones, and other places in the world.

I love traveling in Europe and also in Asia (& in the US, Mexico & Canada for that matter) and I hope to travel more, to places I have never been (South America for ex) and hardly been (Africa). In a nuthshell, like many here, I am a travel nut, and I scrimp in major ways in order to travel.

But even though I have felt comfortable enough just about anywhere I've been, I do agree that different trips are for different reasons, and bring forth different emotions.

As said above, sometimes we travel for a challenge, which it sounds like you did on your trip to Vietnam. Sometimes we travel for 'joie de vivre' which you have found in, say, a cafe in Paris. All travel gets us out of our little boxes and into our world. All travel helps to make us citizens of the world.

From my experience, living/traveling in Asia, although "home" to me in many ways, can be more complicated for a non-local than in most European countries.

Japan is always the country I recommend to my first-time-to-Asia friends. But even a 'westernized' country like Japan can be bafflingly difficult to navigate. Signage can be intimidating, and many inns simply will say "full" rather than deal with a foreign guest (not out of rudeness, more from the complexities of language and customary behavior; nothing worse than a foreigner showing up at dinner with the "toilet slippers" on!).

I just don't think we need to 'rate' our travel experiences in comparison with others. Please try more Asian countries if you want to; but if you don't, enjoy that glass of wine in Paris for me!

missypie

Marginal, I think that if someone from another country had a very idealized view of NYC, they might be interested in hearing some of the negatives before they went.