Jeff

I guess I wonder: Is some of the appeal of Europe a response to the fact that US communities keep spreading and sprawling, and our society keeps stressing the value of objects (ever-larger/nicer cars and houses)? Or is it just that the economy (stupid) that allows us to travel to Europe on a nice exchange rate? Any thoughts on whether the average US citizen would really enjoy living in Europe?

frank

I'm European, just posting to remind those considering this interesting post that your earnings will half (or worse) in Europe.

Rex

I'm guessing that the "average" US citizen does not want to live more than 10 miles from where he/she lives right now, let alone an ocean away. <BR> <BR>US citizens who travel outside the country are probably a minority of less than 10% of the population (i.e., 25-30 million, and if I had to guess, fewer than 30% of those travel to Europe in any given year (Canada/Mexico/Caribbean = 50-60%; rest of the world, excluding Europe 20%?) - - thus, about 5 million people in a given year, perhaps, 20 million in a given decade (counting repeaters only once). <BR> <BR>Even in this select population, I doubt that more than 1% (50,000 to 200,000)would want to live in Europe PERMANENTLY. And of those, most likely, it would be because they have extensive family there, not for the reasons typically cited for travelers to VISIT there. <BR> <BR>I don't consider myself a "representative" US citizen (that sounds more appropriate than denying that I am "average"). I am the far, far end of a spectrum. I am absolutely Europe obsessed. <BR> <BR>I would LOVE to live in Europe - - about 5 months out of the year - - IF AND WHEN: <BR> <BR>1. I have an income source that is independent of where I live, preferably unrelated to doing any actual work. <BR> <BR>2. I have cheap (or better yet, free) access to private, trans-atlantic travel, available just about whenever and wherever I want it. <BR> <BR>3. I have a home in America to come "hang out" in - - near family for holdays, weddings, graduations and the like. <BR> <BR>4. I can afford to offer friends and family the opportunity to come see me in Europe with few, if any limitations. <BR> <BR>In short, I absolutely LOVE Europe, and I nominate it as the SECOND best place to maintain a residence in the world.

jo ann

Answering for myself, I would say that it certainly doesn't have anything to do with society's demands of more material goods -- and judging by the recent post along lines of "Are all you people rich or what?", I would say most of us "trade off" with economies at home to get to Europe. <BR>And I wouldn't blame it on urban sprawl either: it's a real spiritual/mental thing, at least for me. <BR>I travel about 60 days/year for business, and I maintain what I pray is a healthy home life, and I work hard when in my office. Now that my daughter is old enough to fall in love with European travel too, and my husband and I can get back to indulging ourselves with our beloved trips there, I just find such eye-opening awe -- how in the world can I worry about my petty everyday emergencies, real or embellished, when standing in a building that's been around for 800 plus/minus years, since I immediately seem to be struck by the various "real" problems of life over the centuries. Then of course there's frequently the wonderful food, wine, etc , the natural beauty of so many of the spots (and yes we have those in the US too, but there's always room to enjoy and compare and contrast, at least in my mind), the interaction with people who are sometimes so similar to us, sometimes have diametrically different views (how wise they are on conserving electricity for instance -- a girlfriend and I were once asked, when I was much younger!, not to have the place looking like Versailles, with a light on in every room -- I still cringe with embarrassment.) <BR>But would I want to live there? Only for 2 to 5 months at a time, much as Rex has outlined, once I am "retired" with hopefully adequate funds, (actually, I could retire a lot sooner if I didn't crave crossing oceans for a certain % of my vacation time!), and in particular cities/areas of my choosing. (I should mention that I feel the same way about some US cities too). For now, I can't wait to live vicariously during Elvira's fall sabbatical -- already looking forward to her postings!! <BR>

Ed

The attraction? <BR> <BR>Probably as varied as the travelers. For many a trip back to the 'homeland', however many generations removed from emigration. For some, culture ... art, history, music. For many, 'exotic' destinations that are outside the experience of most Americans. A vacation &gt;should&lt; be a 'change', and much of Europe is certainly a change from routine life/scenes in the States. <BR> <BR>Much dependent on the destination as well as the person. We're in love with Rome's architecture and history ... and food. We find the Swiss mountains superbly lovely. There's a certain charm and serenity in Franconia's medieval villages off the path normally beaten by the tourists. <BR> <BR>There are a few more travelers than Rex suggests, though. The paper this morning reported the European Travel Commission expects 12,000,000 US residents to visit Europe this year, encouraged surely by the favorable dollar exchange rate in so many countries. <BR> <BR>We'd live there in a minute, certainly in Switzerland, possibly Italy (the hills of Tuscany), possibly Germany. Like most, though, we have ties back here, and since the lottery is about the only way we'd be able to afford to live in Europe there'd be enough money left over for several trips a year back to the US!

Rex

Ed, <BR> <BR>Thanks for the newsclip. I'm suspicious that 12 million does not reflect 12 million UNIQUE US passport holders.I wouldn't be surprised if out of 12 million ENTRIES into Europe from the US, there are 50 to 100,000 business travelers making 10 or more trips per year. <BR> <BR>But not to squabble. I agree that the favorable dollar is going to make this a banner year. And I wonder how many UNIQUE individual US citizens will travel to Europe in any given decade (upcoming, just past or 1995-2005). I feel like I have easily 100 friends and family members who are in the top 10% of the American socio-economic ladder, and 70-80% of them have not been to Europe in the past 10 years (or ever). <BR> <BR>Whatever the number, it will surely be more in 2000-2010 than it was 1990-2000. <BR> <BR>But I don't think that even 1% of them will choose to move their residence to Europe with NO intention of returning. <BR> <BR>Ultimately, I'm not even sure what Jeff is asking - - if the question is: <BR> <BR>"Does the appeal of Europe as a TRAVEL destination relate to some kind of rejection of the _American_ lifestyle?", <BR> <BR>- - then I think that the answer is a resounding NO.

Ed

I agree Rex. <BR> <BR>I think travel to Europe has nothing to do with 'rejection' of US society, geography, mores, etc. <BR> <BR>Over many trips to Europe on business and pleasure I've come to know a fair number of Europeans passably well. I find little or no difference in their attitudes toward improving their standard of living, including cars, homes, etc. Where such items are attainable, there's an urge ot attain them. Germany and to a lesser extent the UK are prime examples. <BR> <BR>"Sprawl" is largely a function of the size of this country, who developed it (in many cases, European peasants wanting their own land) and the time at which it developed. <BR> <BR>Another factor is the automobile, which became popular because: <BR>1) Cheap, domestic petroleum was available, in contrast to anywhere in Western Europe; <BR>2) The vast distances between settlements in the US; <BR>3) An economic system which made it possible for far more 'average' Americans to buy cars than possible in Europe, either 80 years ago, or even today. <BR> <BR>I strongly suspect a huge majority of Americans would be quite unhappy living in Europe for many reasons. Conversely, I strongly suspect a great many Europeans would be delighted to live here. <BR> <BR>Equally strongly, I find virtually all severe critics of US society and mores totally blind to Europe's problems. We have much to do to improve this country. It takes but a bit of perception on even a relatively short visit to Europe to find at least as much improvement possible there. <BR> <BR>Many of the problems are, in fact, the same. Many are different. Their grass needs watered, fertilized and weeded at least as much as ours. <BR> <BR>Ed

Sjoerd

I believe that 99% of inhabitants of any developed nation (North America, Northern/Western/Southern Europe, Australia/NZ, Japan and a few others) want to stay (close to) where they were born. Part of that is wanting to be close to family, part is the feeling of belonging to a culture, language group. <BR>My uncle and aunt emigrated from the Netherlands to Canada in the early 1950's (when NL was still very poor) and they are still very Dutch and although they won't admit it, I think with hindsight they have regretted their emigration, as they can see now that my parents who stayed here are doing just as well economically. <BR>The only large emigration/immigration flows in history have been out of a region which was very poor to a welcoming country that was richer. <BR>The Americans I know who live here in Amsterdam came here for love, or work, and yes, a few came because they don't like materialism/conservatism back home in the USA. However, this is a small minority. <BR>

Jeff

I don't think I could pick up and move, either. There are too many ties in the US for families, etc. Obviously, Europe as a travel destination could be boiled down to its highlights. But that may be superficial. People talk on this board about there being something more to Europe than the Eiffel and castles. Maybe it is just the fact that Europe is different. I think that is a large part of it. But could it have something to do with a perceived simplicity (and I mean that as a compliment). I get the feeling that there is an emphasis in Europe, perhaps, on life rather than wealth. Whereas, in the US I feel (even for those of us with different priorities) that there is an emphasis on wealth/material things. It is my perception of Europe's emphasis, I think that rounds out the appeal. However, my perception may only be a stereotype or a misconception. My question was not really a good one, or at least not very specific, but it may be interesting to see where it goes.

elvira

Europe was and is a strong influence on America (democracy, religion, food, etc.), so a trip to the source is always enlightening. <BR> <BR>If you are of European descent, visiting the homeland is a pilgrimage of sorts. <BR> <BR>The picture of the Last Supper in Aunt Eileen's dining room can be ignored; the fresco in Milan cannot. <BR> <BR>A visit to Versailles explains how p**sed off the French got. <BR> <BR>Saving Private Ryan puts tears in your eyes; the D-Day Beaches put your heart in your throat; the row of crosses and Stars of David leave you awestruck. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>You can't begin to understand 'dungeon' until you've walked through one. <BR> <BR>You can read about how advanced Roman civilization was; when you see an aquaduct up close and personal, the bulb lights up. <BR> <BR>Then, there's the food.... <BR> <BR>

John

I think it’s all about joy: the joy of discovering a living history instead of a remote and intellectual one; the joy of getting out of one’s own rut and seeing new sights, smelling new smells, hearing new voices…(a trip to Alabama can do this as much as a trip to Albania, of course). There’s the joy of putting yourself just a little at risk, even if it’s only in dealing with strange menus or road signs, and then overcoming it; the joy of human contact – in the markets, on the trains, and the realization that people in Portugal put their trousers on the same way. There’s joy in the scenery, in the food, in the shops, in the kids’ faces and in the opera halls. Do North Americans go to Europe because we’re tired of sprawl or because the US dollar is strong? Poor reasons IMO. (Try Madrid and tell me about sprawl, or Stockholm and bargains.) Live there? Sure, why not, if you contribute more than you consume. (Better yet, do a house exchange so some Europeans can live in your world and contribute their bit to your culture and your community.) <BR> <BR>These discoveries are not limited just to Europe, you know. <BR>

Marsha

Dear Jeff: What an interesting post! I agree with the majority of the other posters that the appeal of Europe depends upon the individual American's personality, rather a rejection of our materiality or the great exchange rate. I suspect that the majority of Americans travel to Europe, say that sure was interesting, and have no interest in going back, let alone living there (I bet they go on guided tours and never really "live" in Europe.) It is just too "different." They don't appreciate that Europeans have a few very nice things, while we Americans must have many, many "things." The few of us that keep going back to Europe tend to go because of family, insatiable curiosity, or our education (I started French lessons as a child and then attended a liberal arts college - travel was part of my training.) Let's instill the love of travel and different cultures in our children - maybe we can convince them to find jobs in Europe, so we can have excuses to live there when we retire! <BR>

russ

Jeff, <BR> <BR>This question really hits close to home. I have recently returned from living in Italy for 2 ½ years, and it was a life changing experience. In fact, I am still having a difficult time readjusting to American culture. <BR> <BR>Having grown up second generation American from four Italian grandparents, the draw for me was the food, the language, the art and architecture, the history, and the search for my “roots”, as it were. While I will credit this for giving me the initial push, the experience of living in Italy far exceeded my expectations. I traveled far more that I had expected to – not only in Italy, but also throughout Europe and North Africa; I made friends of all nationalities, many with whom I still continue to correspond; I met my family - great uncles, my second and third cousins - what stories they had to tell; and I had my eyes opened to viewing life through the eyes of another culture, and learning that there is not a right way and a wrong way, but just your way and my way. <BR> <BR>Sadly, circumstances have dictated my return “home”. Will I move back to Europe some day? Absolutely. My American “things” will never come close to equaling the experiences I had there. <BR>

Al

When I retired, a family member asked if we were going to live in Europe because "you seem to have such a good time traveling there." I was genuinely surprised at this statement. That "having a good time" and "living there" were somehow one and the same. And so I began a quest to find out what makes Americans different, why we long to come home after a trip or an extended time abroad, and how we relate differently one to another. This last point needs expansion. <BR> <BR>A few years ago, old friends from Denmark visited us for a prolonged stay. When we took them to our local supermarket they were surprised that we called the employees there by name, exchanged information about our families, and that those employees knew about our family, too. Our friends said that they had shopped in the same stores for years, knew none of the names of the employees, knew nothing about them personally, and really did not care. Hmmm. <BR> <BR>Later, visiting friends in Mexico, we asked the man of the house what was the last name of his chauffeur, a man who had driven the family cars for 25 years. "I have no idea," was the reply. Hmmm. <BR> <BR>Today we had lunch at one of our favorite restaurants. We know the waitress by name. She has lived in America four years. She spoke no English when she arrived from Taiwan. This week she will bring some of her favorite home-made dessert to our house. <BR>Why? "You speak to me, you know my name, I want to be your friend," she says in her accented English. Hmmm. <BR> <BR>I think what I am trying to say in a rather clumsy way is that there is a struggling spirit of equality, an erosion of class lines that we Americans find comfortable and take for granted. In other cultures these barriers exist and are sustained, generation after generation. And that is why I can visit but never feel at home anywhere else. <BR> <BR>

mary

Russ, my dream is to move to Italy. Was it difficult to do? How did you find work? Please advise.

gb

I love the feeling of having been changed in someway. I've had that feeling backpacking in the mountains near my home, and I've had that feeling when I've visited overseas. Something about travel leaves you feeling a little different from how you felt before travel. Stronger, smarter, wiser, and more introspective

Louise

Jeff, why presume we are all from the U.S.? I am a South African! Or are all you other posters out there Americans?

Mary Ann

I agree most with Elvira and John. Going to Europe is: <BR>1. Seeing History almost first hand at a safe distance. Visiting Normandy, Dachau, Hitlers Hideout, touring 16th century Rothenburg and its criminal museum, etc. <BR>2. Seeing the beauty of places you've read about or in the movies such as the canals of Venice, the Alps, the Riviera, Paris. <BR>3. Absorbing and understanding other people and their problems and triumphs such as the jewish quarter and glorious new freedoms in Prague, the caves of Budapest, the Arch de Triomphe, Notre Dame, sometimes with personal history. <BR>4. To see how others now live with the barges floating down the Grand Canal, hiking through villages in the Alps, wine tasting in Beaune, observing in almost any city/village life passing by from a sidewalk cafe. <BR>5. An adventure, planning driving tours, sometimes getting lost with the generosity of those who sometimes do not speak our language but go out of their way to help. <BR>6. An escape across an ocean, usually for at least 2 + weeks where the biggest challenges are finding your hotel via one way streets or deciding what to order off the menus and which wine or beer to try. <BR>7. Lastly, Europe is accessible and a smorgasbord (spelling). It is for us a 6/7 hour flight, 14 max round trip, rental of a car and drive at most maybe 5 hours, generally only 2 or 3 to a new location. We are now planning a trip to OZ/NZ. By the time we are finished we will have spent I figure 48 hours in planes, the history is only about 300 years, the biggest challenge may be the side of the road they drive on. <BR>8. Sure we have problems in the US, magnified by our size and our freedoms. But Europe has them too. One concern in traveling is theft (same too in US), muggings can be a problem in both places. Perhaps one reasons our problems are so publicized is that we speak out so openly. Is anything perfect? <BR>We have made 3 driving tours, including purchasing a car. Would we like to live there? Maybe for a short time, but as others posted, families and friends are here not there. Certain simple pleasures would be missed others would be enjoyed. It is really alot of trade offs. Vacationing in Europe is terrific, but America is home, even <BR>

Anne

Jeff: What's the appeal for me? It has nothing to do with the strength of the dollar, but the strength of my imagination, curiosity and wondering how civilization came to be the way it is. The planning of a trip to Europe has taken on dimensions of such personal depth that it has me looking forward eagerly to each day that I get closer to actualizing what I have envisioned. It is merely timely that we have miles accumulated that allows us to take a family of 4 to Europe paying $84 for tax on the tickets. The real attraction is to be able to live 2 weeks in France and 2 weeks in Italy and absorb the culture, customs, food, art, music, atmosphere, geography, history, nature of the country and people. To take a family out of its routine, day to day existence and plop down in the middle of Europe, surpasses any expectations of a worthy experience.

Art

I also agree with Elvira and John. More than that I have also visited 47 states. (We have our own history albiet somewhat brief compared to Most of the World). There is beauty anywhere you go, Have you been to Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine in the fall to see the colors. Almost every place that I've been has it's on beauty, its just that Europe has so much thats different and loaded with History. Hungary has been occupied through most of its ten centuries but still has a hunger(no pun intended) for FREEDOM. I just love to travel and see new places whenever I can affort to. I envy the travelers living on the east coast, it takes me twice as long to cross the pond from California(another beautiful place) Have you ever stood in a groove of giant redwood trees. It's truly a relegious experiance. Parden the spelling. <BR> <BR>Good travels <BR>Art <BR>