Europe 1st Timers - help needed with itinerary please
 

Hello Fodors friends,
First time user & first time question. We are hoping that someone can help us with our itinerary :)

My husband and I are flying from Perth (Australia) into Dubai and then into London arriving on the 18th of June 2011 at 12:15 and flying out of Rome on the 13th of July 2011 at 15:25.

We are staying in London for 5 nights, then travelling by Eurostar to Paris on the 23rd of June. We are staying in Paris from the 23rd for 4 nights.

Can we please have your opinion/advice/criticisms on the following? We plan on travelling from Paris to Strasbourg (3 night stay), travelling from Strasbourg to Zurich (3 night stay), travelling from Zurich to Milan via the Gotthard Pass (staying in Milan for 3 nights), travel from Milan via Bologna to Florence (3 night stay) and then onto Rome for 4 nights before flying home.

Are we trying to do too much during our stay? We plan on using trains for our travel (probably only point to point tickets, I think the passes are a little bit expensive).

Any further assistance would be greatly appreciated. (At this stage we only have accommodation booked in London and Paris so we are quite flexible.)

Thanks so much for taking the time to read our topic :)

Hi, I'm also from Australia and I know how tempting it is to do as much as possible when you've travelled so far to get to Europe.

What you have planned is possible, but keep in mind that you will lose at least 1/2 day each time you move locations. On the other hand you can regard the train travel as enforce rests which you will need. I guess the really important thing is not to try to do too much in the time that you have in each place. Choose the things you really want to do and focus on those rather than tearing from one gallery to another like lunatics!

2nd class travel is fine on the trains although I must admit we had a 'rule' that if a trip was more than 4 hours long we paid for 1st class for the extra room and generally it was a bit quieter.

We spent 4 weeks in Europe a few years ago, and had a similar itinerary country wise. What worked really well for us is that we had a nice mix of country and city. It comes down to personal taste, but Wengen in Switzerland was a stand out place to visit (I hadn't heard of it prior to putting up a post on this forum). Similarly I'd encourage you to visit Cinque Terra at the expense of Milan. Florence and Rome should't be missed. We only spent two nights in London as I had been there before and have a preference for the Continent as London is almost a little too close to home (we're also aussies). 4 nights in Paris will give you adequate time to see most of the draw cards. It is difficult to balance the desire to see as much as possible vs time travelling. Good luck!

Hi M,

>Paris to Strasbourg (3 night sta),
Good. Are you planning on a car?

>Strasbourg to Zurich (3 night stay),
I think that that is 1 too many nights in Zurich

>Zurich to Milan (3 nights),
Is there a reason for staying in Milan instead of Venice?

Milan via Bologna to Florence (3 night stay)
OK

Rome for 4 nights before flying home.
OK

Enjoy your visit.

((I))

I'd decrease the time in Zurich and skip Milan entirely in favour of more time in Florence or I'd add Venice instead. IMO, Milan has never impressed (except for the cool Sforza palace) and has a very industrial feel - see suggestion below for an alternate. Like a poster above, I wonder if you have considered that you have chosen all big cities, and could stand to break it up a bit.

I suggest you stay in Lombardy (that's the name of the region in Italy - Milan is the capital). I loved Mantua, and went there specifically to see Palazzo Te, which stands out as one of the top experiences for me after 7 trips to Italy. Mantua is also not really on the tourist circuit - which is good - and 2 hrs from Milan so you could still daytrip the city if you wanted. Mantua is also 40 min from Verona, which I found touristy but still very beautiful and worthwhile. You could also stay in Lake Como or Garda and take the train into Milan just for the day.

I'm wondering what the appeal of Strasbourg is? Given what you're skipping.

Zurich is the least interesting of Swiss cities (though still not bad). Lucerne would make a better introduction to Switzerland.

And Milan may be the least interesting of Italian cities. And I do feel the omission of Venice, though I understand it's a bit of an outlier. My personal choice would be to skip Milan and Florence and go to Venice.

But you're traveling in July, along with the crowds. Some time away from a city away from the crowds might be refreshing. Perhaps Strasbourg would be that.

Rather than limit yourselves to only big cities, I like some of the suggestions offered -- and echo the idea of skipping Milan, although it is a good place to change trains. You may want to head to Lake Como or the Cinque Terre region in order to kick back and enjoy the setting. Then you can head to Florence and Rome from there.

Thank you all so much for your responses. Like I said, we are first timers and all of this information is greatly appreciated.

ira: we only plan on travelling using trains, not hire vehicles.

From most of your suggestions it sounds like Milan is a no go, which is fine. However, we were looking at travelling from Zurich to Milan via the Gotthard pass as we were interested in travelling through the Alps. Does anyone have suggestions as to a better or more scenic train ride to see the beautiful scenery?

Note taken in regards to Zurich, either decrease the amount of time there or omit and go for Lucerne instead.

Mimar: Strasbourg was a suggestion from a friend.

Cinque Terre does look beautiful and many people have also suggested that to us, so it looks like we will be adding this to the itinerary.

We would be more than happy to break it up a bit and not travel from big city to big city. As first timers we are a little bit weary about how to get from point A to point B. The train systems look great, could it be a little bit overwhelming?

I have looked at a few other blogs & forums, many people have said that only a day trip is required in Venice - we were planning on a day trip when we are in Milan. If we aren't going to visit Milan, we could add it as a day trip from another point?

Thanks to everyone that has replied so far, the information you are providing is fantastic! Please feel free to add any further comments! I appreciate your time :)

Train schedules here--experiment with options other than what they give you; pay attention to connection times:

http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en

Check on overnight trains from Paris.

Consult whitchbudget.com for flights, sometimes a better option.

I would NEVER daytrip Venice - I've got a strong opinion about that such that I rather leave it out entirely rather than have to daytrip it. Bold statement, I know :) It is very easy to get to Venice from pretty much anywhere, and if you are coming down from Lucerne in Switzerland (I agree with previous posters - a much better choice IMO than Zurich or Strasbourg) you are going to have one of the greatest scenic train rides in Europe, all through the Alps.

I randomly put in a date on trenitalia and they run a direct Eurostar train to Venice from Lucerne leaving 8:18 am and arriving 15:10. What a great ride that would be! (Note that this eurostar train isn't cheap, but maybe you have a railpass? Remember to reserve). http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/npp...n&channel=tcom

From Venice you can get direct (express) trains to Florence, which is where I see you want to go next, as well as Rome.

Note that if you do opt for Lucerne, you don't need to then also go to Lake Garda or Lake Como in Italy because Lucerne is also on a lake (and you have v limited time). So choose one or the other.

There's a train

Lucerne has easy access to the places in Lombardy we've been talking about, although if you stay at Lake Lucerne (Switzerland) you don't then need to stay at Lake Como or Garda (Italy) on your limited time.

Aargh, ignore the last 3 paragraphs - I was editing my response and didn't erase the last part.

You won't find a lot of Fodorites saying Venice is only a daytrip. On the contrary, there are posters who spend weeks and more there. And we always urge people to stay at least one night there in Venice proper. It's a unique (and uniquely beautiful) place. But very crowded in July. Maybe save it for when you could give it more time in the off-season.

Florence and the Cinque Terre will be very crowded also. The Italian lakes and rural Tuscany or Umbria would be less crowded, good for a city break.

A daytrip to Venice is absolutely the worst way to see one of the most unique, beautiful, and interesting cities on earth! Skip it entirely if your only option is a daytrip.

1) There is just so much to see and experience in Venice--we spent 4-1/2 days there on our first trip together, and didn't have time for sights like the Accademia and Guggenheim museums or any of the smaller lagoon islands.

2) On a daytrip, you are most likely jsut to become part of the disoriented, littering, plastic gondola purchasing daytripper herd stampeding from the train station to P. San Marco and back.

3) You'll experience the most expensive shops and worst restaurants in the city along "daytrippers' alley."

The more I think about it, the more I think you should skip Strasbourg and Zurich entirely. It's a little ruthless, I know, but think about it ... it's your first trip to Europe, and you've only got 3 1/2 weeks. You are going to spend nearly 1 of those weeks in S & Z -- at the expense of only 4 in Paris, 3 in Florence and 4 in Rome.

I'd dump Milan too (but I've already said so) in favor of some of the other suggestions above.

Hello Melly,

Maybe you could consider something like this. It doesn't appear you have a problem or issue with hotel hopping-I know from reading on here many do, and many don't. I'm one who doesn't mind it.

Depart Paris---->
Lucern 3 nights
Strasbourg 2 nights (or take this out, add 1 night to Venice & 1 night to Florence/Rome-I put a note below)
Venice 4 nights (day trip to Dolomites)
Florence 3 nights (day trip to Milan. Check train schedules but I saw some that run 1 hour 31 minutes up to 3+ hours each way)
Rome 4 nights

IMO, I'd skip Milano too (I didn't enjoy it). If your heart is set on it, i'd take a day trip from Florence.

My preference to this particular itinerary would be to take out Strasbourg as well and add a night to each Venice & Rome. If you add a night to Venice-that would balance out the time for the day trip to the Dolomites (Bus tours available from Venice). If you day trip from Florence to Milano-don't add a night to Rome, but add it to Florence.

Have a wonderful vacation and it will be nice to read about your journey in a trip report!

I was able to spend two full days in Venice (including all the attractions I wanted to see and a lot of extra wandering) and found that amount of time worked fine for me. It likely would make sense to explore other islands here, though, which would add a couple more days. And I can sympathize with those who might want to spend more than two days here even without leaving the main island -- depends how much you want to luxuriate in the city's unique atmosphere.

Definitely agree that a day trip to Venice short changes this lovely city, though. But I think two days provides a good quality experience.

Hi Melly

Yes it is exciting your first trip to Europe, and planning is like a jigsaw puzzle and sometimes the pieces don't fit where you would like them to.

I have been planning a return trip to Europe this year (did a month in France in 09). I am spending some time in Alsace and Strasbourg and then Paris, but mostly in Italy.

For your first time I would add an extra day to Paris,there is never enough time to enjoy Paris! It also gives you time to have a day trip somewhere like Versaille or Monet's garden. I also looked at a train to Italy but in the end I am flying Easyjet to Pisa because a) it is a lot quicker and
b) a lot cheaper.

However these were my train options
- overnight train from Paris to Milan....I would second not staying in Milan we were moving on to Cinque Terre ( if you get a sleeper it is more expensive but then you save on 1 night hotel acc. But not everyone can sleep on a train.
- day train Paris I have listed a couple of train site links I use that may be helpful

http://www.tgv-europe.com/en/?rfrr=r...%20-%20Welcome
http://www.bahn.de/i/view/overseas/en/index.shtml
http://www.ferroviedellostato.it/homepage_en.html

I had friends that did the Gotthard Pass and said it was beautiful (we just could not fit it into this trip). They then stayed in the Italian lakes district.
If you do go via Switzerland I agree with other comments not to stay in Zurich
You could also add another day to Florence and use it for a day trip to Lucca & Pisa or a bus to Siena.
I don't want to ramble on too much but if I can help just ask. I am not an expert but am a fellow Aussie who has done a lot of research and reading for my upcoming trip to France & Italy

Happy planning its exciting but overwhelming sometimes.

Hi all,

Thanks so much for your suggestions.

Here's our itinerary so far (as you have seen we have made a couple of changes).

London - 5 nights
Paris - 4 nights
Paris to Strasbourg day train (poss Eurostar)
Strasbourg - 2 nights (hubby is keen on visiting Strasbourg)
Strasbourg to Lucerne day train
Lucerne - 3 nights

Travel by day train from Lucerne to Lugano (thru Alps)
Not sure where to go from here? We would like to stay somewhere between Lugano and Parma. Any suggestions?
Next stop Cinque Terre (possibly Levanto), then to Florence 3 nights, then to Rome 4 nights.

Are we really trying to do too much on this holiday?

I agree Aussie_10, I am really looking forward to this holiday (as you can imagine) but it is really hard knowing where to go and what to see in the short amount of time we have. It is a big jig-saw with lots of pieces (and a lot of the pieces really dont fit!) Also we would prefer to use day trains for travelling from point to point. Thanks for the train site links these will come in handy.

It looks like Venice is going to be a no go, I just don't think there's enought time to visit. Maybe next time :)

Please feel free to comment on the changes we have made! Once again thanks to each of you.

If it were me I would travel from Lucerne to Lugano to Venice (I did this many years ago) and not go to the Cinque Terre this trip. I would hate to go to Italy and miss Venice; I would even choose it over Florence. It is always a difficult decision what to include and what to leave for another trip.

Hi,
I may be in the minority but I agree with you to keep off Venice and reserve it for another trip. To be honest, July and August are not the best times to visit Venice because a) Too many visitors during that time and b) It stinks (literally).Cinque Terre is a good alternative option.

On the Swiss part of you tour, if possible do take one of the scenic train routes. I would suggest you to take the Glacier Express which starts from Chur or Davos and goes all the way to Zermatt. The views you get throughout are breathtaking.

Alternatively, when you are in Luzerne(Lucerne), plan a day to hire a car and drive through the Furka and Grimsel passes. I can assure you that you will enjoy the drive through those Alpine passes and through the beautiful swiss countryside.

I know you are hearing our voices in your sleep but let me add one more plea to include Venice in your trip. After countless trips to Europe, we have seen everything on your itinerary at least once. I would visit Venice before Strasbourg, Lucerne, Lugano, Parma, Bologna, Milano or Cinque Terre. Everyone has favorites but Venice is unique and you should try to include it for 2-3 nights.

ARGH!! My head hurts! You are def correct mamcalice, there are lots of little voices :) Ok I have spoken with hubby and we have taken Cinque Terre out of our itinerary(again) and added Venice.

Adjustments as below:

London - 5 nights
Paris - 4 nights
Paris to Strasbourg day train (poss Eurostar)
Strasbourg - 2 nights (hubby is keen on visiting Strasbourg)
Strasbourg to Lucerne day train
Lucerne - 3 nights (do we need 3 nights here?)

From Lucerne we would like to go to Lugano thru the Alps, if we go to Venice from here on the same day it will be at least a 7 hour train ride with 2 stops (and we would have to leave Lucerne at 7am). It sounds like what could be a very long day.

Not sure what to do here? Should we stay somewhere in between Lugano and Venice? Or should we do the big train 7 hour train ride and go all the way to Venice?

Next we were going to try and stay in Venice for 2 nights.

Next onto Florence for 3 nights (or is 2 nights enough here?)

Then onto Rome for 4 nights before we come home. It does feel as if we are doing too much, but I think it may be the only way we want to see as much as we can whilst we are there.

Please feel free to make comments, we are open to suggestions!
Thank you all :)

Melly

Its shaping up well. And sounds exciting.

I'm sure you will like Strasbourg, especially hubby, its important that everyone sees the things or places on "their" list. The TGV train trip from Paris to Strasbourg is only 2h 20m and Strasbourg is very easy to get around.

Lucerne is only another 2h 20m trip with a change in Basel.

I would do the train trip from Lucerne to Venice in one go, as breaking it up 1 night along the way will only be wasting the time getting on and off trains and checking into a hotel. Just use the travel day as a rest day and enjoy the scenery. I am not a fan of 1 night stopovers if possible.

You could perhaps do a late afternoon train from Venice to Florence to give you part of the next day in Venice.

Oh course it is always good to have more days in each place but we all need to be rich and have endless holidays.

I think your trip sounds great and you will have a very memorable time. Enjoy!

Thanks so much Aussie_10 and to everyone else for your help.

Looks like we are going to do the trip from Lucerne to Venice in one go.. its approx 7 hours by train.

Itinerary
London - 5 nights
Paris - 4 nights
Paris to Strasbourg day train (TGV)
Strasbourg - 2 nights (hubby is keen on visiting Strasbourg)
Strasbourg to Lucerne day train
Lucerne - 3 nights (do we need 3 nights here?)

From Lucerne we will go to Venice. We leave Lucerne around 8am and get to Venice around 3pm. (Stay in Venice for 3 nights)

Next stop Florence for 3 nights

Then onto Rome for 5 nights before we come home.

We arent too sure if a railpass or point to point tickets would be the way to go. That is the next thing we have to try and get our heads around! (It's really difficult trying to understand all of the passes available!)

melly I'm go glad you are going to stay in Venice for a few nights. I've known a few people who have treated Venice as a day trip and then reported that they hated Venice! Public transport, the vaporetto in Venice is expensive compared to other cities. We bought a 24 hour pass as soon as we arrived and then used it as much as possible, after that we walked. During the 1st 24 hours we caught the ferry to Burano (an outlying island) which we loved. It cut into our day a little, but we really enjoyed it and I would recommend it. You'll need to get moving with hotel bookings though as Venice is popular.

Thanks cathies :)
We are so excited about our trip.. I know we need to get a wriggle on with hotel bookings!

Thanks for the tip about the 24hour pass :)

What is ur opinion about rail passes vs point to point?

Melly

If you don't have your Eurostar reservations, get them immediately. No pass will help you there.

For the rest of your travel and if you act promptly, you may be able to get discounted tickets for France and Italy -- at www.voyages-sncf.com and www.trenitalia.it, respectively. The French e-tickets can be printed at home. Don't know about the Italian ones; they're new.

If you find cheap tickets, that will definitely contra-indicate a pass.

I think 3 nights in Lucerne is great. It's the best place to get a snapshot view of Switzerland with daytrips on the lake and into the mountains.