at12am

I don't know what the offense is so I have to wait for it to come, if any. I just like to plan ahead and find out the avenue or channel to dispute the charges if i don't recognize it. If I have violated any, I am willing to remit the fine. This is also one of the reason why I hesitate to drive in a foreign country, where I don't speak the language at all and don't know the roads and rules. Since so many people drive in Europe, I felt sorely inadequate not to take the plunge. Hey, it is Tuscany and it is not easy to tour it without driving.
After much memory searching, I might have violated the limited zone when I return the car, crossing the Ponte Vespucci and driving thru the square where the Grand Hotel is(Piazza D'Ognissanti) to get to Eurocar on Via Borgo Ognissanti. I never drove in Florence; I only used the car to tour outside of Florence. When I returned it, I used the same route as the Taxi that I took to pick up the car. I guess the Taxi has the permit to enter that small square.

Will see how it turns out.

Texastrips

For everyone's future reference, here's a very clear discussion of two key issues to look out for driving in Italy, the speed cameras and the ZTL
zones (restricted entry for cars)

http://www.slowtrav.com/italy/drivin...s_speeding.htm

bettyk

A couple of years ago, we got a letter from Avis whom we had rented a car from through Autoeurope. Basically, the letter said the same thing -- that we would be getting a ticket from somewhere in Germany (my memory is a little faulty about this point) from our trip several months before. They charged our credit card 11 Euros for the admin fee.

Well, we never got any ticket from Germany, not even a letter. We were concerned that when we went back to Germany last September that something would come up about this since we rented again from Avis but nothing was ever said.

I don't know what happened.

LoriS

We received a ticket in the mail from Avis (I think) from a violation in Italy. The time of the "violation" was on the ticket. We happened to be at the hotel and we were checking out at the time of the violation (time stamp on hotel bill), so clearly the hotel's valet was in possession of the car and not us -- I think the charge was going the wrong way down a one-way street. We sent copy of hotel bill with time stamp along with explanation and all charges were reversed.

If you have proper documentation and can prove your case, by all means fight the ticket.

Dukey

First time renting in Europe probably means first time DRIVING in Europe.

The ticket a mistake..unlikely and you know it as well as we do.

Pay the thing and be done with it.

"Big Brother"...nobody EVER complains about him when he sends you money do they?

traveller1959

>>>I will eventually get a ticket from the authority. <<<
>>>Well, we never got any ticket from Germany, not even a letter.<<<

If it is just a minor violation, usually the authorities do not bother sending a ticket of, say, 30 Euros overseas. Then just forget it.

However, the rental car company already had some administrative effort and it is completely legal, rightful and fair if they charge a nominal fee.

Jake1

When Big Brother sends me money, it's just getting some of my own money back. I don't complain about getting it back, but just wish "He" wouldn't take so much in the first place, especially considering how much is wasted and spent on non-essentials.

DickPatterson

I just received a notice of TWO fines for driving in a limited traffic zone (ZTL) in Florence last May. Each is 94 Euro. They're for the same date, less than a half hour apart. I only drove to the hotel. I don't know if I exited the ZTL and drove back in because I was still trying to find the hotel, or if both fines are for the same period in the zone. The people at the hotel didn't tell me anything about having to register the car. The information on the website LJ cites is very instructive:

"A designated collection agency called EMO ("European Municipal Outsourcing" - don'tcha love it? www.emo.nivi.it) is following up many of these fines. If you were staying at a hotel within a ZTL on the day of your infringement and EMO is handling collection, you could ask your hotel to contact EMO confirming that. You yourself should also provide EMO with the relevant details. If the information provided is complete, your fine can be cancelled, but you yourself should follow this up - don't just assume it will happen. EMO seems not to be a true debt collecting agency in the aggressive sense but more an outsourced administrative mechanism. We have no information on whether or not they can give you a bad credit rating if you do not pay."

There is a phone number on the notices, which I will call on Monday. But I gotta tell ya, I am really annoyed. I knew the hotel was in a ZTL, but I thought it was always permissible to drive to your hotel to load or unload, so I figured I would explain that to the police if I were stopped by them. But this sending you a ticket seven months later, with all this threatening language, is like a slap in the face while saying, "Welcome to Italy." And I wonder how all you unsympathetic posters would feel if this happened to you. Oh, I forgot. You never do anything wrong.

Challiman

We were in Barcelona and southern France in March, and I did half the driving. I knew in advance that I would be driving, so I got the guidebooks that included road rules and signs and restrictions and studied them diligently. I even made flash cards, since I don't speak much Spanish, Catalan, or French. Still, I made numerous mistakes, but since I haven't received a ticket by now I think I'm safe.
I feel bad for those who did get tickets, though, as in the stress of the moment it is easy to do the wrong things.
I hope you won't be charged too much, but I'd say for sure to pay the fine.

Cowboy1968

First of all, I would give it a thought why strict regulations like the ZTLs are in place.

I would say that one of the major benefits is that you as a tourist can enjoy to walk in historic town centers without a zillion cars jamming the narrow streets -- which were not be able to take all the traffic if access was unrestricted.

And to keep motorized traffic in those parts of town to a minimum, and to enforce the regulations, it needs cameras and an automated ticketing system - or otherwise people would simply ignore it.

And how can you expect a camera to discriminate between a poorly-informed tourist who accidentely drives into a ZTL and someone simply ignoring the restrictions to find a place to park closer to the inner city?

ira

>I wonder how all you unsympathetic posters would feel if this happened to you....<

Much as you did, DP.

However, I wouldn't have bothered to broadcast it to the world, along with an unpleasant comment.

DickPatterson

Re: And how can you expect a camera to discriminate between a poorly-informed tourist who accidentely drives into a ZTL and someone simply ignoring the restrictions to find a place to park closer to the inner city?

They knew it was a rental car, rented by a tourist from the U.S. -- they sent me the ticket at my home address. Perhaps they could assume that such a person did this accidentally, or was driving to his hotel, and, in the interest of goodwill, summarily forgive such offenses.

Re: However, I wouldn't have bothered to broadcast it to the world, along with an unpleasant comment.

Well, I'm a little ticked off and offended. And isn't the purpose of this forum to enlighten others so they will benefit from our experiences? Everyone assumed that the original poster was at fault and should pay the ticket. But he still doesn't know what he did wrong. Yet he's presumed guilty and advised to pay the ticket and not complain about it.

The website LJ cited also says, "Before the introduction of Autovelox machines, traffic police had a certain amount of discretion and rarely if ever fined a tourist for driving in a restricted zone to his hotel. In certain neighbouring countries that depend heavily on tourism - I won't name them on this web site - the police are SPECIFICALLY INSTRUCTED not to fine tourists for trifling infractions when the tourists' intentions are good. Unfortunately, to date, the local authorities in major tourist destinations in Italy have not seen the wisdom of this approach or at least have not thought of a way to implement it in a practical manner. Indeed, the apparition of EMO (see below) suggests that they regard fining tourists for driving to their hotels as a legitimate method to augment their coffers. Personally, I think they have not correctly assessed the costs and benefits, but I have never yet heard of a local authority anywhere in the world that gave up a good source of revenue except under intense public pressure."

So maybe if the Florentine police get enough angry tourists complaining, they will change their policy. BTW, I already paid over a hundred dollars to the car rental company for their fee for furnishing the information to the police -- TWICE, since there are two infractions involved, both of which occurred within a half hour. (As I said, I don't know whether I exited the ZTL and reentered or if I'm being charged twice for the same period in the zone.) Now they want another three hundred dollars. So, yes, I'm pretty annoyed, and I even have some pretty negative feelings toward Italy and Florence, in particular, at this moment. You may think I'm overreacting, but I do feel like I've been slapped in the face and told we're glad you came here and spent your money, but we really don't care how you feel and we're going to take as much from you as we can.

Cowboy1968

I don't get your logic.

Should the Italian authorities give anyone from outside of Italy the benefit of doubt that tourists are not able to comprehend the traffic signs at the beginning of a ZTL?

No one advised the OP that he should pay the ticket. He does not even have a ticket yet! So it can be anything-- parking, speeding, ZTL... Maybe it is for something he did not do, maybe not. Who knows now?

The OP was simply informed that most tickets are issued automatically or through an automated procedure, and that there is no (or hardly ever a) cop anymore to pull you over to issue a speeding ticket or similar.

By the way.. I do not know if it is common practice in California or Florida to let tourists from abroad off the hook for parking violations, using HOV lanes (please explain THAT signage to someone from overseas), or running a red light.

I had to pay a pretty nice fine for parking during street cleaning hours in San Francisco, AFTER I had seen the cleaning vehicle doing the job and I decided it was safe to park. Well, I was wrong.
I think I still need to write a letter of protest to Arnie! Should I start to hate California now?

wasleys

<i>I wonder how all you unsympathetic posters would feel if this happened to you</i>

Perhaps they would be too responsible/sensible to book a hotel in the centre of a congested and ancient town when they had a car. Perhaps they would blame themselves for not having established exactly what the local rules were. Perhaps they would be adult enough to put it down to experience and get on with their lives.

DickPatterson

Cowboy, several people DID advise the OP to pay the ticket. And the Bella Toscana website says that before the Autovelox machines, the police had discretion and rarely ticketed tourists for infractions of this type. It also says that, in certain areas that appreciate their tourists, &quot;the police are SPECIFICALLY INSTRUCTED not to fine tourists for trifling infractions when the tourists' intentions are good.&quot; So apparently my logic was understandable in the past, and is still understood by certain municipalities and by the Bella Toscana website author. And I suspect that you may also understand it when you get a bill for $400 for driving to your hotel.

longboatkey

Another tourist pleads &quot;ignorance&quot;.....Just pay it and learn to be a informed driver in the country of your tourism!

DickPatterson

It's FOUR HUNDRED DOLLARS, people! What I was doing is actually permissible if the hotel registers your car, so I guess I'm responsible for the hotel's ignorance as well. We picked up the car in Rome and drove to Florence. Apparently Wasleys thinks I should have taken everybody to the car rental agency, taken all our luggage out, and taken a taxi to the hotel. I do intend to get on with my life, but I also intend to fight this ticket. My life does not have space in it for paying exorbitant fines, and it also does not have space for researching every aspect of every city I plan to visit, every time I plan to go there. I've been to Florence several times, and I've also driven into the historic districts of Orvieto, San Gimignano, etc., to drop my passengers at the hotel. Italy used to allow for this, and I think they need to go back to that policy, as does Bella Toscana. Yes, they were half way through the procedure when they found out I was from the U.S., but they could have stopped at that point, and I would have had to pay only the hundred dollars to the rental company. Those of you who have actually driven in Italy know how easy it is to make a mistake (I'm willing to bet that I speak Italian better than 90% of you, that I've read more about Italy than 90% of you, and that I have more experience driving in Italy than 90% of you), and a policy that has them following me home and demanding three hundred dollars in such an impersonal way is not appropriate for a country (or maybe it's just this city) that cares about its tourists.

chartley

&quot;They knew it was a rental car&quot;. What they saw was a car registered in Italy. They had no way of knowing the probable nationality of the driver until they were half way through the procedure.

If it was a car registered in, say, Denmark, then they would have definitely known it was not driven by a local.

Otzi

DickPatterson - I for one do empathize with you. I'd be reallllll ticked-off if that happened to me. It seems like they are screwing you BECAUSE you are a tourist and they know you won't/can't dispute it. I've always been too cowed to drive into Italy. From what I've seen of Italian drivers in the Austrian and Swiss Alps I have no desire to fight it out with those maniacs.

While I do enjoy visiting Italy, it and Greece are perhaps the only countries in Europe where I'll stick with organized tours or train travel.

wasleys

DP,

Yup. You can read, speak and talk Italian better than I can.

Pity you can't read English, though. My post referred to booking a &quot;hotel in the centre of a congested and ancient town&quot; when you had a car, not dropping off a car and engaging in all sort of logistical gymnastics which could have been avoided by a more sensible choice of accommodation.

But seeing as you are intent on fighting this incredible injustice why not devote your energies and skills in Italian to that and stop making yourself a laughing stock here?