Eastern Europe Itinerary (Budapest, Krakow, Prague) - Please Comment!
Feb 1st, 2006, 01:38 PM
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Eastern Europe Itinerary (Budapest, Krakow, Prague) - Please Comment!
We are going to Eastern Europe in late June and need help with our itinerary. We are very active travelers and don't mind being "on the go" while on vacation. Here is what we are thinking:
Arrive Budapest 6/26 early
6/26 and 6/27 = 2 full days in Budapest
6/27 night train to Krakow
6/28 and 6/29 = 2 full days in Krakow
6/29 night train to Prague
6/30, 7/1, and 7/2 = 3 full days in Prague
7/3 afternoon flight home
In addition to commenting on the itinerary, we would welcome hotel suggestions, "must see" things, etc. We don't typically spend too much time in museums but prefer seeing historical sights, cathedrals, etc. by day and pub hopping in the evening.
Thanks,
Dave
Arrive Budapest 6/26 early
6/26 and 6/27 = 2 full days in Budapest
6/27 night train to Krakow
6/28 and 6/29 = 2 full days in Krakow
6/29 night train to Prague
6/30, 7/1, and 7/2 = 3 full days in Prague
7/3 afternoon flight home
In addition to commenting on the itinerary, we would welcome hotel suggestions, "must see" things, etc. We don't typically spend too much time in museums but prefer seeing historical sights, cathedrals, etc. by day and pub hopping in the evening.
Thanks,
Dave
Feb 1st, 2006, 01:55 PM
#2
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 22,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For Budapest, you might want to read the last part of my trip report:
http://www.fodors.com/forums/pgMessa...p;tid=34659808
http://www.fodors.com/forums/pgMessa...p;tid=34659808
Feb 1st, 2006, 03:23 PM
#3
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nitpicking on my part... but see http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34643767 for my take on your use of the term <i><b>Eastern</b></i> Europe.
Best wishes,
Rex
Best wishes,
Rex
Feb 1st, 2006, 04:22 PM
#4
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Michael, thanks for the link to your post on Budapest. I also checked out your travel photos!
Rex, interesting view on the region. I think most Americans (don't know about others) refer to any country that was once part of the iron curtain as "Eastern Europe". Most tour books also use "Eastern Europe" to refer to anything from East Germany to Russia and from Poland to Bosnia. However, I have read that folks who live there think of themselves as "Central Europeans" as you mentioned. On the other hand, I wonder how many people would on this board would connect Krakow with Central Europe?
Thanks for pointing out a more politically correct reference for the area!
Still looking for ideas on my itinerary and any other helpful tips...
Thanks,
Dave
Rex, interesting view on the region. I think most Americans (don't know about others) refer to any country that was once part of the iron curtain as "Eastern Europe". Most tour books also use "Eastern Europe" to refer to anything from East Germany to Russia and from Poland to Bosnia. However, I have read that folks who live there think of themselves as "Central Europeans" as you mentioned. On the other hand, I wonder how many people would on this board would connect Krakow with Central Europe?
Thanks for pointing out a more politically correct reference for the area!
Still looking for ideas on my itinerary and any other helpful tips...
Thanks,
Dave
Feb 1st, 2006, 04:42 PM
#5
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 836
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rex,
You are of course quite correct in pointing out that those countries are not in the eastern half of Europe. However common terminology was to refer to the countries beyond the Iron Curtain as Eastern Europe and that has stuck for many of us.
Based on this allocating Germany to Western Europe has a political logic, but geographers of my generation always regarded it as being in Central Europe.
In the post you cite you say "(any more) than Missouri is in the Eastern part of the USA". Now nitpickers like you and I know that the USA extends across about 120° of the globe. This means that of the 50 states of the USA anything east of Reno is in the eastern half.
Of course you might have used the term USA inaccurately and ignored the two newest states. That moves the mid point to, say, Kansas City but even then Missouri would still be in the eastern half.
However your confusion is quite understandable. After all we are talking about a country whose mid-West isn't even in its western half.
Stay lucky.
Michael
You are of course quite correct in pointing out that those countries are not in the eastern half of Europe. However common terminology was to refer to the countries beyond the Iron Curtain as Eastern Europe and that has stuck for many of us.
Based on this allocating Germany to Western Europe has a political logic, but geographers of my generation always regarded it as being in Central Europe.
In the post you cite you say "(any more) than Missouri is in the Eastern part of the USA". Now nitpickers like you and I know that the USA extends across about 120° of the globe. This means that of the 50 states of the USA anything east of Reno is in the eastern half.
Of course you might have used the term USA inaccurately and ignored the two newest states. That moves the mid point to, say, Kansas City but even then Missouri would still be in the eastern half.
However your confusion is quite understandable. After all we are talking about a country whose mid-West isn't even in its western half.
Stay lucky.
Michael
Feb 3rd, 2006, 03:49 AM
#6
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to add to the pedantry... I said that Missouri should not be thought of as being in the eastern <i>part</i> - - I didn't say <u>half</u>.
Using the word "part" implies "thirds" (and yes, I was referring to the "lower 48"
- - eastern, central and western.
Using the word "part" implies "thirds" (and yes, I was referring to the "lower 48"
- - eastern, central and western.
Feb 3rd, 2006, 08:50 AM
#7
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 836
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
rex,
I know you didn't say half, but it helped to make the point.
Part doesn't imply third any more than it implies half, quarter, fifth or any other division. You can't make words mean what you want them to mean, as any pedant worth his or her salt will tell you.
However, just to keep a Limey happy please set my mind at rest and tell me which part of the western third of the 'lower 48' the 'mid-West' is in.
Or do we pedants have to admit that the names given to areas often fail to follow cold logic and, like Eastern Europe, prove to be not where pedantry places them?
Michael
I know you didn't say half, but it helped to make the point.
Part doesn't imply third any more than it implies half, quarter, fifth or any other division. You can't make words mean what you want them to mean, as any pedant worth his or her salt will tell you.
However, just to keep a Limey happy please set my mind at rest and tell me which part of the western third of the 'lower 48' the 'mid-West' is in.
Or do we pedants have to admit that the names given to areas often fail to follow cold logic and, like Eastern Europe, prove to be not where pedantry places them?
Michael
Feb 3rd, 2006, 09:34 AM
#9
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clearly, the "midwest" of the US is a term that has ben "geographically (pedantically?) wrong" for over a century. I don't think that there is even any good agreement as to where the midwest <i><u>is</u><i>!
I am fond of the term "the Big Ten states" - - since the states that (<i>used to</i
contain those state universities of the Big Ten athletic conference - - OH, IN, MI, IL, WI, IA and MN vaguely fit one culturally/geographically definable area - - and it is pretty close to the "midwest". Even this is all messed up for the past decade, since the "Big Ten" is now <i>eleven</i> universities with the addition of Penn State. Is western Pennsylvania now in the "midwest"? I don't think so... er, well, kinda...
I personally live at one fringe of this area, and I think few Kentuckians (my neighbors, just eight miles across the Ohio River) would say that their state is precisely in the "midwest". Indeed, in Indiana we can't even figure out if we are in the eastern or central time zones of the United States (no matter what the ultimate decision, my hometown will stay in the eastern time zone with Louisville, "central" and eastern Kentucky).
No one calls Alabama or Mississippi part of the "midwest", even they share the same longitude as the "heart" of the Big Ten states (IL, IN, MI and WI for example).
And across the Big Ten states there are real differences in how residents of the seven states view themselves. In Cleveland (where many people hang on to the notion of the "Western Reserve" - - a one-time "colony" of Connecticut!), they feel quite akin to Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and even the rest of the Atlantic seaboard metropolis cities.
They're part of a very different world from MN and IA - - which will often lump themselves into the "Prairie States" (along with NE, KS and the Dakotas).
Missouri, like Kentucky (and maybe Arkansas) can lay claim to being part of a whole bunch of different places (maybe "the Ozarks" fits for MO and AR, and the heck with the rest of the other pigeonholes!)
Last of all, ask any Californian where "back east" is - - and they'll say it's pretty much everything east of Utah!
But I'll refrain from using the term "the eastern <i>part</i>" of the United States... all the while offering the suggestion - - to (relatively) novice travelers to Prague and Budapest... to look a map of <i>all</i> of Europe before calling them cities in "Eastern Europe"!
</i></i>
I am fond of the term "the Big Ten states" - - since the states that (<i>used to</i
contain those state universities of the Big Ten athletic conference - - OH, IN, MI, IL, WI, IA and MN vaguely fit one culturally/geographically definable area - - and it is pretty close to the "midwest". Even this is all messed up for the past decade, since the "Big Ten" is now <i>eleven</i> universities with the addition of Penn State. Is western Pennsylvania now in the "midwest"? I don't think so... er, well, kinda...I personally live at one fringe of this area, and I think few Kentuckians (my neighbors, just eight miles across the Ohio River) would say that their state is precisely in the "midwest". Indeed, in Indiana we can't even figure out if we are in the eastern or central time zones of the United States (no matter what the ultimate decision, my hometown will stay in the eastern time zone with Louisville, "central" and eastern Kentucky).
No one calls Alabama or Mississippi part of the "midwest", even they share the same longitude as the "heart" of the Big Ten states (IL, IN, MI and WI for example).
And across the Big Ten states there are real differences in how residents of the seven states view themselves. In Cleveland (where many people hang on to the notion of the "Western Reserve" - - a one-time "colony" of Connecticut!), they feel quite akin to Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and even the rest of the Atlantic seaboard metropolis cities.
They're part of a very different world from MN and IA - - which will often lump themselves into the "Prairie States" (along with NE, KS and the Dakotas).
Missouri, like Kentucky (and maybe Arkansas) can lay claim to being part of a whole bunch of different places (maybe "the Ozarks" fits for MO and AR, and the heck with the rest of the other pigeonholes!)
Last of all, ask any Californian where "back east" is - - and they'll say it's pretty much everything east of Utah!
But I'll refrain from using the term "the eastern <i>part</i>" of the United States... all the while offering the suggestion - - to (relatively) novice travelers to Prague and Budapest... to look a map of <i>all</i> of Europe before calling them cities in "Eastern Europe"!
</i></i>
Feb 3rd, 2006, 09:48 AM
#10
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 34,857
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with you Michael, part doesn't by definition mean a third. It can mean any part, even half. In any case, I don't think a lot of people in that area get as bent out of shape about this as Rex does. I have relatives and friends in that area (W Germany, E Germany, Poland), and they aren't particularly bothered by Poland & CR being called Eastern Europe, and I think they do that themselves sometimes, but I'm not sure. Some of these terms aren't just from Communism, but also history and culture (or religion -- Christianity vs. Orthodoxy/Islam). Poland is Eastern Europe in reference to Spain/France, UK being western Europe, and Germany/Austria being Central. Also, I think Poland is in the eastern part of Europe certainly if you talk halves. Europe doesn't extend as far east up there as it does near the Black Sea, does it?
IN any case, I had to laugh at your remark about the midWest, because I am from the midWest. That is an odd term now that I think of it, and I am not sure what it means. I'm from the midwest (Ohio), and that State is in the eastern half of the US, and probably even eastern third. Maybe the term is really a combination of middle states and states just to the west of them (not far west, of course -- I guess Nebraska is the farthest west of the states called the Midwest). I suspect that term came about when the US didn't have a lot of the western states yet as part of the union, and has just remained. (Wikipedia says archaic and had something to do with Northwest Territory).
I just read the Wikipedia article on Eastern Europe definitions, which was very interesting and talked about the different concepts (political, economic, cultural) of this term.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe
What I found most interesting in that article was that it said the UN statistics division still considers Hungary, Poland and CR to be Eastern Europe, although many others now use the term of EU boundaries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe
IN any case, I had to laugh at your remark about the midWest, because I am from the midWest. That is an odd term now that I think of it, and I am not sure what it means. I'm from the midwest (Ohio), and that State is in the eastern half of the US, and probably even eastern third. Maybe the term is really a combination of middle states and states just to the west of them (not far west, of course -- I guess Nebraska is the farthest west of the states called the Midwest). I suspect that term came about when the US didn't have a lot of the western states yet as part of the union, and has just remained. (Wikipedia says archaic and had something to do with Northwest Territory).
I just read the Wikipedia article on Eastern Europe definitions, which was very interesting and talked about the different concepts (political, economic, cultural) of this term.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe
What I found most interesting in that article was that it said the UN statistics division still considers Hungary, Poland and CR to be Eastern Europe, although many others now use the term of EU boundaries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe
Feb 3rd, 2006, 10:00 AM
#11
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While my "shape" is not very "in shape", I don't get "bent out of it" by the use of the term <i>Eastern Europe</i> to refer to Prague and nearby regions.
I choose to share information with (relatively) novice travelers who may not be familiar with Czech pride about being in the very "heart" (center) of Europe. I get/got the sense that they feel that the world "knew this" in the 13th, 14th and 15th centuries when Prague was one of the great learning <i><b>centers</b></i> of Europe, and they strive to regain/re-promote that notion again today.
I choose to share information with (relatively) novice travelers who may not be familiar with Czech pride about being in the very "heart" (center) of Europe. I get/got the sense that they feel that the world "knew this" in the 13th, 14th and 15th centuries when Prague was one of the great learning <i><b>centers</b></i> of Europe, and they strive to regain/re-promote that notion again today.
Feb 3rd, 2006, 10:26 AM
#12
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,472
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If possible, stay within walking distance of the old town and Charles Bridge. We have stayed on both sides of the river with good results. When we stayed in Mala Strana (on the castle side of the river) we ended up on the bridge more than when we stayed in Stare Mesto (the old city). My teenagers like staying in Mala Strana better because they like the bridge so much. Also, there are not as many tourists thronging the streets and souvenir shops, so they felt it was more authentic. We have visited only in winter, but the highlights would still be the same.
The Charles Bridge (Karlov Most) is like a street party. There are artists and musicians there and people just milling around. There is a statue that people line up to rub for good luck. The bridge has lovely views of both sides of the river.
The castle grounds are extensive and there are tons of things to see: lots of museums and exhibits in addition to the cathedral. You could spend the better part of a day there ( and there are other sights/museums near the castle complex). It's also cool to walk through at night. It is fun to see the changing of the guard at the main gate. Their uniforms were designed by the costume designer from the movie Amadeus, and we thought they looked great. The Golden Lane is well worth seeing. I would recommend walking up the road to the main entrance of the castle and leaving by the back entrance and taking the stairs down.
The Old Town Square has the famous astronomical clock which is pretty cool. It strikes every hour, so you will have no problem catching the parade of the 12 apostles and the skeletal figure of death ringing his bell. There are several churches right on the square, as well as street musicians. I'd imagine it would be quite lively in the summer.
Josefov, the old Jewish quarter, is on one end of the old city, and you can tour the old synagogues and the old Jewish cemetary with its crowded tombstones. I think you get a pass for most of the sites except the oldest synagogue which has separate entry fee. For the pass they accept cash only, I think, and it is a bit pricey.
Prague is a city of towers and spires and you can walk up many of them and get a good view.
There are several walking tour companies operating in the central city, and most leave from the astronomical clock.
I would repeat the warning about the taxi drivers. They WILL rip you off. Most hotels have a pickup service they will arrange from the train station. I would totally recommend this. They have certain taxis they work with and have prenegotiated rates. If you hail your own cab, I would suggest that you at least find out from your hotel what a reasonable fare would be and negotiate that with your taxi driver.
The Charles Bridge (Karlov Most) is like a street party. There are artists and musicians there and people just milling around. There is a statue that people line up to rub for good luck. The bridge has lovely views of both sides of the river.
The castle grounds are extensive and there are tons of things to see: lots of museums and exhibits in addition to the cathedral. You could spend the better part of a day there ( and there are other sights/museums near the castle complex). It's also cool to walk through at night. It is fun to see the changing of the guard at the main gate. Their uniforms were designed by the costume designer from the movie Amadeus, and we thought they looked great. The Golden Lane is well worth seeing. I would recommend walking up the road to the main entrance of the castle and leaving by the back entrance and taking the stairs down.
The Old Town Square has the famous astronomical clock which is pretty cool. It strikes every hour, so you will have no problem catching the parade of the 12 apostles and the skeletal figure of death ringing his bell. There are several churches right on the square, as well as street musicians. I'd imagine it would be quite lively in the summer.
Josefov, the old Jewish quarter, is on one end of the old city, and you can tour the old synagogues and the old Jewish cemetary with its crowded tombstones. I think you get a pass for most of the sites except the oldest synagogue which has separate entry fee. For the pass they accept cash only, I think, and it is a bit pricey.
Prague is a city of towers and spires and you can walk up many of them and get a good view.
There are several walking tour companies operating in the central city, and most leave from the astronomical clock.
I would repeat the warning about the taxi drivers. They WILL rip you off. Most hotels have a pickup service they will arrange from the train station. I would totally recommend this. They have certain taxis they work with and have prenegotiated rates. If you hail your own cab, I would suggest that you at least find out from your hotel what a reasonable fare would be and negotiate that with your taxi driver.
Feb 3rd, 2006, 10:32 AM
#13
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 431
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to prolong the West/Central/East discussion.
Canada has its own version of this debate. People from Ontario refer to Ontario and Quebec as "Central Canada". Anything east of that is Eastern Canada, and anything west of that is Western Canada. Both Ontario and Quebec are geographically in the eastern half of the country. This definition has more to do with politics and population than anything else.
People in western Canada divide the country in just two parts, East and West. West being everything west of Ontario, and east being Ontario and east. Hearing themselves as living in Eastern Canada makes Ontarians balk. If asked where "Central Canada" is, most kids in Vancouver would likely shrug, and guess Manitoba.
So, it really is a matter of perspective. I don't think any of these terms have universal rules!
Canada has its own version of this debate. People from Ontario refer to Ontario and Quebec as "Central Canada". Anything east of that is Eastern Canada, and anything west of that is Western Canada. Both Ontario and Quebec are geographically in the eastern half of the country. This definition has more to do with politics and population than anything else.
People in western Canada divide the country in just two parts, East and West. West being everything west of Ontario, and east being Ontario and east. Hearing themselves as living in Eastern Canada makes Ontarians balk. If asked where "Central Canada" is, most kids in Vancouver would likely shrug, and guess Manitoba.
So, it really is a matter of perspective. I don't think any of these terms have universal rules!
