Early thoughts on Spain itinerary
 

I'm planning to make a trip to Spain in the Fall of 2018 (probably last week of September or first week of October). The trip would be for two weeks/three weekends, leaving DFW on a Friday.

I'm thinking that I will bookend the trip with Madrid and Barcelona, flying open jaw. My thinking right now is to fly into Madrid (non-stop flights from DFW) and return from Barcelona (requires a stop). The travelling party will be myself (50 y.o. male), my sister (50 something female) and a friend (60 something female). Our friend has a brother that lives in Madrid, and this will be her first time to visit him in Europe, so that factors into the equation.

Right now, I'm thinking that we'll rent an apartment in Madrid for six nights (beginning on Saturday, departing on the following Friday), which we could use as a base for daytrips to Toledo and other places (Salamanca, Segovia, Avilla, and El Escorial would be possibilities), then traveling to Seville via Cordoba (stop to tour the mezquita in Cordoba before continuing to Seville) where we would spend two nights (Friday and Saturday).

The next part is a little up in the air, so I'll skip the next two nights for now, and say that my plan is to be in Granada for two nights (Tuesday and Wednesday), then to fly to Barcelona for the final three nights (Thursday through Saturday) before flying home on Sunday. None of that is written in stone, and I'm open to persuasion to change it up, but I feel pretty good about that part of the plan.

What I'm less sure about is the part between Seville and Granada. I would like to see some of the pueblos blancos, but the consensus seems to be that there isn't a whole lot to do in these towns--that they are interesting to see, but one need not linger. I would also like to see Gibraltar, but a day trip would seem to suffice for that. I'm not dying to stay on the Costa del Sol, as the beach is not a focus of the trip, but it wouldn't be out of the question. I would prefer not to do any one-night stays, if possible.

With all that in mind, I'm leaning towards spending a day driving through a few of the pueblos blancos (Arcos and Grazalema), maybe stopping for the traditional long Spanish lunch (they do that on Sunday's too, right?) in Ronda, then pushing on to somewhere like Marbella where I would spend two nights, with the next day used for a daytrip to Gibraltar. Google suggests that the Sunday drive would be about four hours without stops, and that Gibraltar is about an hour away from Marbella. Now, I've also contemplated using Ronda as my base for a day trip to Gibraltar (although it's a 2 hour drive over windy roads, which doesn't seem like a great idea) or possibly breaking my one night stand prohibition to stay one night in Ronda, and one somewhere else after doing Gibraltar. I suppose I could be talked into missing Gibraltar altogether, but seeing the pillars of Hercules is something I would really like to do.

Any thoughts?

<<I would also like to see Gibraltar>>

That should be really low on any priority list for Iberia.

I get that. I'm not proposing to spend the night in Gibraltar or spend any significant time there. I'm interested for few reasons. As a history buff, and a bit of an Anglophile, it appeals to me for historical reasons. So much time will be spent looking a mudejar buildings and the Muslim history in Spain that, to me, I'd sort of like a glimpse of where they come from. And then, there's the unique geographic situation of the place--it's like crossing the Channel and seeing the white cliffs of Dover (which I did when I was young). I wouldn't plan my trip around it, but, if I'm going to connect Seville and Granada by going through the Sierra des Grazalema region, it's not much of a detour.

So, point taken on the priority for Gibraltar. What I'm really interested in is what would you do if you had two days to get from Seville to Granada, with the parameters stated?

One more note: planning to pick up a rental car leaving Seville and drop it upon arrival at Granada.

which we could use as a base for daytrips to Toledo and other places (Salamanca, Segovia, Avilla, and El Escorial would be possibilities), then traveling to Seville via Cordoba (stop to tour the mezquita in Cordoba before continuing to Seville) where we would spend two nights (Friday and Saturday).>

Suggest considering doing those wonderful day trips by train -easily cheaply done and no driving in and out of Madrid each day and even take train to Cordoba (at about 200 mph rather than a tedious drive thru boring terrain) and stop at Cordoba and train on to Seville, another town you do not need or want a vehicle.

Then when leaving Seville drive thru the white villages to Ronda -neat town bisected by a deep gorge and on to the rest.

For lots on Spanish trains check www.seat61.com (adroit even esoteric advice on discounted train tickets for high-speed AVE trains); www.ricksteves.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com.

Yes, Pal, I'm planing to use the train for everything but the trip from Seville to Granada, and the flight from Granada to Barcelona (looked at the train, but flying seems better for that leg, at least from my early research).

(looked at the train, but flying seems better for that leg, at least from my early research).>

Yes indeed - I took an overnight Hotel Train and that was nice but it was scrubbed a few years ago I think.

Forget Gibraltar. Guess you don't follow current events so don't know that Spain and the UK are practically at war over it. You'll spend many hours on the border trying to get in and then many more trying to get out. Any extra days you have should be put to Cordoba and Seville. I'd also forget the "pueblos blancos". Go from Seville to Ronda to Granada.

IMO, you are being overly ambitious. SERIOUSLY overly ambitious.

FWIW, I thought Madrid worth at least 4 full days (not counting jet lag), Toledo worth 2 full days, and Salamance worth at least 2 full days. And yes, I’m talking <b>full</b> days, and BTW, I travel HARD -- up early and out and about until there is literally nothing else I can do on any giving day!

I was glad to spend close to a full day in Segovia and, separately, in Avila, (so 2 nights), but can understand that many people manage these 2 locations in a single day trip from Madrid. I took a ½ day day-trip from Madrid to El Escorial; that worked for me. So, it REALLY depends on what YOU and your traveling companions what to see and do, but 6 nights for Madrid strikes me as VERY little.

For Granada, I think timing depends on (a) how you want to visit the Alhambra and (b) what else you want to see there. I wanted the full day – and I mean FULL day – for the Alhambra itself, and I found more than enough to keep me happily busy in that delightful city for another 1.5 days. So 2 nights would not have been enough for me; YMMV.

I’m glad I saw Ronda, but would not consider it a priority. I didn’t find the pueblos blancos, Gibraltar, or Costa del Sol of sufficient interest to include them in my time in Spain.

Sevilla, on the other hand, is, IMO, a delight. I wish I’d given it more than 3 full days. And Cordoba’s Mezquita is a true gem – not just one of the highlights of Spain, but IMO, one of the highlights of the world. I gave Cordoba 2 full days, but am aware that many people visit the Mezquita as a day trip from Sevilla.

And IMO, 3 nights is exceedingly little for Barcelona. I felt rushed with 5 full days there, not counting any day trips.

IMO, reasonable itineraries could include –
- 10+ days in Madrid, Toledo, and nearby areas (Segovia, Avila, Salamanca, Cuenca, etc.)
- 10+ in Andalusia (Sevilla, Cordoba, Granada, +)
- 10+ days in Barcelona and surrounds.
- 10+ days for the north of Spain (San Sebastian, Bilbao, etc.)
So, IMO, you will need to be extremely selective, and NONE of us can tell you what to prioritize!

Here's what I recommend: Get some good guidebooks (or spend some time with a few in your local library) and plot your wish list on a calendar. Each time you propose to change locations, pencil in your transportation, add some time on either side (for getting to/from your lodging, checking in/out, packing/unpacking, getting lost/oriented, etc.). Remember that each change of location can be "costly" as it is time that you will not have to see or do anything.

BTW, note that many things in Spain are closed on Monday, and often for all or part of Sundays too; and many things in Spain will also be closed daily for a very long mid-day break.

Also remember that Madrid and Barcelona are the two cities in Spain that are easiest to reach from most international destinations. Given that you will likely have to shortchage something you want to see, shortchanging one / both of them might make sense, as you can more easily include them on a future trip than some of the other places your are considering. Just a thought…..

In addition to guidebooks, consider consulting some of the MANY trip planning threads on this board – you are NOT the only person to suggest an ambitious plan, and you should be able to learn A LOT from the responses given to those others.

Good luck!

I for one enjoyed staying overnight in Gibraltar and found it for reasons OP says interesting from a historical context but also a beautiful place if you climb (or bus) to top of the Rock. A unique place -Spanish and British.

I can see where folks diss it as most do here - no ancient cathedrals or museums but at least I really liked it - at night I went to a British-like pub.

Pal - No one is "dissing" Gib. It was fun to visit way back then. But, today, because of the political situation, it's very hard to enter and exit.

Not everyone has more than two weeks. That is what it is and you make the best of it.
I suggest you decide day to day whether to stay in Madrid or do day trips. Be flexible, train tickets can be purchased that day or the night before.
I feel 2 nights in Seville is too short, but I can understand wanting to do something else. I don't think your plan is too ambitious, just busier than some people prefer. It is doable (except the Gibraltar part). You could give an extra day to Seville, and if you find after 2 days you can do a day trip from there. Drive the white towns and on to Granada. There is more to Granada than Alhambra, but your choice is not uncommon. Fly or train to Barcelona. Your choice, but with train you will have less risk of lost luggage, cancelled flights, or flight delays and you arrive 'in' Barcelona. Sure plenty fly with no issues, but that route has issues. For a similar length of time, train is on time....just saying.
If you still have an extra day, you can add it to Seville, Granada or Barcelona. If Barcelona, consider a day trip if the city itself doesn't offer enough.

quiltingmama: That's basically what I do when I stay somewhere a week or close to it--I'll have options, but you can't get to everything. Toledo is the only certain daytrip from Madrid, and I probably would only take one more.

As far as Gibraltar and time goes, I wouldn't try to cross the border in my vehicle--I park on the Spanish side, cross the border and catch a bus. I know that there is a lot of talk about Gibraltar right now in Spain as it relates to Brexit, but the UK will still be part of the EU in 2018, and I don't expect the situation to change a whole lot so long as that is the case (legally, it can't). I'm not hell bent on going to Gibraltar--that's why I'm asking questions.

kja: appreciate the feedback on the pueblos blancos. I am looking for opinions on the subject. So, if you were going from Seville to Granada, how would you do it? Drive? If so, would it be worth just driving through a few pueblos blancos? Or would you take the train (everything I've read indicates Granada's train connections aren't great).

As far as Gibraltar and time goes, I wouldn't try to cross the border in my vehicle--I park on the Spanish side, cross the border and catch a bus>

Border snafus always can pop up as Spain claims the Rock was stolen from them - several years ago when I went Spanish buses could not go into Gibralter and we had to cross the airport runway on foot to get in - very unusual.

And, we can remember the border being totally closed from 1969 to 1985. If you had to go there, you went via Tangier which was fun if a trifle dear. With things heating up, Spain may just do that again. Good luck to the OP !

I would take the bus from Sevilla to Granada. If Ronda is a priority, you can get there by public transportation; no need for a car.

kja: Thanks for the suggestion. I will say that I'm not trying to avoid renting a car on this trip--in fact, a short rental has always sort of been something I assumed I would do, but certainly not in Madrid or Barcelona. I like train travel, and do use buses, but I haven't done a bus trip with luggage (other than a package tour 30 years ago). Certainly, I expect to do the majority of this trip by public transportation.

On Barcelona, I know 3 nights is really short, but, like you said, it's a place that I could very well return to. I've thought about someday doing a trip that start in Barcelona then goes north along the Costa Brava, perhaps into southwest France, or over into the Pyrenees.

It's really hard for me to get away for more than 2 weeks. I'm a self employed attorney (mostly do litigation), so not only do I not make any money while I'm traveling, when you are out for a significant period of time, cases tend to get sidetracked, and it's hard to get them moving again, so the hit to revenue lingers on even after I return to the office.

I found the buses in Spain quite comfortable. Luggage is stored in an under-carriage compartment, so you don't need to struggle with it. Or at least, that was my experience.

I fully appreciate that vacation time is often limited, and I was not trying to criticize you for the length of your trip. My point was instead to offer some ideas of the kinds of time frames that make sense to me, acknowledging that your goals or preferences might be different, but in the hope that it might help you plan your trip in a way that makes the most of whatever time you have.

We always drive in Spain. Beyond the freedom it gives, for three people it's cheaper. Some Americans are entranced by public transport because there's so little of it here, but having lived in Spain for many years, for us a car is essential. You just have to make sure all luggage will fit in the trunk, not be visible to the hooligans.

I've done ten maybe train trips to Spain and always loved them - but I am a solo traveler so train was cheaper and I find cars isolating - on trains you see and meet Spaniards. And for cities which I like better than countryside cars are useless once there.

Trains go up to nearly 200 mph on AVE and high-speed lines - about 3 x as fast as cars.

If going to large cities as many only do trains are great - nothing against cars especially if you are traveling there a long time and going to places trains or buses don't.

my problem with your plan is not the number of places that you are planning to visit in your two weeks but the time it takes to get between them which will take a big chunk out of your holiday. It's not just the travel itself, which is often the easiest part, [and if done by train can be part of the journey itself] but the packing up, checking out, getting to the station/airport, hanging about for your flight [worse with planes than trains as the latter tend to be more frequent and easier to fit into the rest of your itinerary] getting from the station/airport to your destination at the other end, checking in, unpacking, orienting yourself to your new place, etc. etc.

That all takes energy and time which would, IMHO, better be devoted to your actual holiday. and BTW I know exactly what you mean about not earning when you're not working as I'm a self-employed lawyer too.

So hard as it may seem I would drop Barcelona [as well as Gib, which is really nothing special] You should find plenty to do in 2 weeks splitting yourselves between Madrid and Andalusia; I suspect that you will get very frustrated just for example having one day for Seville and wish you'd stayed longer. Seville, Granada, Cordoba and Malaga are all great places to visit and are relatively close together making travelling between them quite quick and easy.

You could plan another great trip to the north of Spain based around Barcelona for your next visit.

Having a car can offer a freedom not otherwise available and a chance to see places that are not readily visited via public transportation, and certainly, there are times when I choose to rent a car! But there are disadvantages to having a car, too. For example:

- For one thing, driving can be stressful – and I say that as someone who loves driving! But some roads are challenging, unexpected detours or GPS failures can be a bit daunting, and driving into cities (and finding parking) can make the last part of a long trip less than pleasant.

- Driving – or at least responsible driving – can also pose constraints on the driver. For example, the driver may be unable to truly enjoy spectacular scenery, as s/he needs to pay attention to the road -- sometimes, very careful attention! And depending on how much one eats and one’s size and and how long one relaxes over a meal, even a glass of wine with lunch may carry risks.

- Driving is generally not a particularly green choice – and for some of us, that is a worthy consideration.

- Some of those “oh, doesn’t that look charming!” places aren’t actually that charming, and by the time you get back on the road, you can end up with less time than might be ideal for visiting the places that were your priorities.

- And one of the best things about taking public transportation: It can sometimes provide wonderful opportunities to interact with people from the area, or gain insights into local norms and traditions.

I have no evidence on the matter, but suspect that Bedar has it backwards: My guess is that it is the people from the U.S. who have experience with public transportation who recognize its merits, while those who have never had access to reasonable public transportation mistakenly think of trains and buses as cramped, crowded, inconvenient options that would require struggling with luggage. I could be wrong!

annhig: I've thought about dropping Barcelona, but one of the reasons I had it on my itinerary is my assumption (which could well be wrong, as I haven't researched this issue extensively, yet) that it will be much easier (or perhaps even necessary) to spend the final night of the trip in either Madrid or Barcelona, in order to catch a flight back to the US. Part of that is premised upon using American Airlines to fly (not an absolute requirement, but the logical choice at DFW). So, if that assumption is valid, I'd prefer to do an open jaw itinerary with Madrid and Barcelona rather than simply backtracking to Madrid. But, some Spain experts may have a different view on that and be able to share some insight on this issue.

Open jaw is a great idea – but needn’t constrain you to Madrid and Barcelona unless you are adamant about having a direct flight to / from Spain. There are many regional airports into which, or out of which, you could fly and even book through with American Airlines, taking advantage of its code-shares. You might want to think about where you would like to spend your time and then explore your flight options, rather than assuming that you MUST plan around these two international airports.