Eagle's Nest = Tourist trap
Jun 21st, 2010, 07:49 PM
#21
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No one said anything about "celebrating" Nazis for god's sake. We visited the damned Eagle's Nest because of it's historical aspect. And we saw "Band of Brothers" just like millions of other Americans!!
If the Germans feel so strongly about the damned thing, then tear it down.
If the Germans feel so strongly about the damned thing, then tear it down.
Jun 22nd, 2010, 11:53 AM
#23
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I am appalled and frankly disgusted that anyone who truly wants to be helpful on these forums resorts to such lowly tactics as suggesting that other posters are 'ignorant' or 'sick and insane', cannot spell correctly, are misinformed, etc. This thread has deteriorated into a good example of destruction wrought by arrogance, sarcasm, skewed or misinformation. It appears that there may be those who, because they reside in a country, believe that they should be looked at as the ultimate and unquestioned expert for 'information' on that country, region or venue.
The article in Tagesspiegel would appear to have been written by an opinionated journalist desparate to leave a mark rather than an historian, tour guide or Chamber of Commerce representative.
As a student of history, researcher of truth and facts surrounding WWII and frequent visitor to the Obersalzburg, it appears to me that the op did no pre-trip research prior to making his/her visit to the Kehlstein and perhaps went there with distorted expectations. Indeed there are those who visit such places as the Kehlstein for the Disneyland effect or as a shrine to that aspect of evil. However, to suggest that such places as the Kehlsteinhaus be destroyed or that it's history be 'swept under the rug' would be counterproductive to trying to understand what truly happened there and then doing what one is able to prevent such things from ever happening again. There may still be pain and embarrassment associated with such places as the Kehlstein but if one is going to comment on it far better to present accurate teaching facts rather than skewed, biased, negative, destructive or wrong information and sarcastic posts.
For us in the USA to advocate that any sites, memorials, etc. connected with our Civil War be destroyed, denied, supressed or regarded as 'tourist traps' would be similiar to some of the posts within this thread. Yes, there are even some of these places that you could say are tourists traps if you view them from that perspective. A visit to Gettysburg in Pennsylvania comes to mind. For every 'trap' there there are dozens of accurate learning opportunities. Look at the forest not selected trees.
On the constructive side of this thread I might suggest a few unbiased, informative and accurate web sites:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us
http://www.kehlsteinhaus.de/en/index.php
http://www.obersalzberg.de/cms_d/con...ome/index.html
http://www.thirdreichruins.com/
http://www.h-net.org/~german/
http://www.obersalzberg.de/cms_d/con...ome/index.html
The article in Tagesspiegel would appear to have been written by an opinionated journalist desparate to leave a mark rather than an historian, tour guide or Chamber of Commerce representative.
As a student of history, researcher of truth and facts surrounding WWII and frequent visitor to the Obersalzburg, it appears to me that the op did no pre-trip research prior to making his/her visit to the Kehlstein and perhaps went there with distorted expectations. Indeed there are those who visit such places as the Kehlstein for the Disneyland effect or as a shrine to that aspect of evil. However, to suggest that such places as the Kehlsteinhaus be destroyed or that it's history be 'swept under the rug' would be counterproductive to trying to understand what truly happened there and then doing what one is able to prevent such things from ever happening again. There may still be pain and embarrassment associated with such places as the Kehlstein but if one is going to comment on it far better to present accurate teaching facts rather than skewed, biased, negative, destructive or wrong information and sarcastic posts.
For us in the USA to advocate that any sites, memorials, etc. connected with our Civil War be destroyed, denied, supressed or regarded as 'tourist traps' would be similiar to some of the posts within this thread. Yes, there are even some of these places that you could say are tourists traps if you view them from that perspective. A visit to Gettysburg in Pennsylvania comes to mind. For every 'trap' there there are dozens of accurate learning opportunities. Look at the forest not selected trees.
On the constructive side of this thread I might suggest a few unbiased, informative and accurate web sites:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us
http://www.kehlsteinhaus.de/en/index.php
http://www.obersalzberg.de/cms_d/con...ome/index.html
http://www.thirdreichruins.com/
http://www.h-net.org/~german/
http://www.obersalzberg.de/cms_d/con...ome/index.html
Jun 22nd, 2010, 12:32 PM
#24
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We did the "private" tour several years ago in high summer and it included the underground bunkers. We never waited in ANY lines, the guide was very well-versed in the history of the place and we would do it again in a heartbeat. I am sorry your own experience wasn't as good.
Jun 22nd, 2010, 12:56 PM
#25
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>opinionated journalist
And you actually think your kind of propaganda is better and "true"? Maybe come visit the real world and learn about politics today. This http://www.thirdreichruins.com/ is one of the ugly sites. Peolpe don't want to learn. It's a "horror version of Disneyland" or worship that takes them there. And they DO know it themselevs.
Another "Gutmensch" here.
And you actually think your kind of propaganda is better and "true"? Maybe come visit the real world and learn about politics today. This http://www.thirdreichruins.com/ is one of the ugly sites. Peolpe don't want to learn. It's a "horror version of Disneyland" or worship that takes them there. And they DO know it themselevs.
Another "Gutmensch" here.
Jun 22nd, 2010, 01:25 PM
#26
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Dukey: Yes, I think to get much out of this experience, you need to take the "private tour" by which I assume you mean Eagle's Nest Tours. How did you avoid all lines, though? Only the site operator's buses are allowed to go to the top. Also, did you get to jump the line for the elevator? That was a very long line since only a small number of people can fit at one time.
Jun 22nd, 2010, 03:05 PM
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We took the jennerbahn up Mt. Jenner and hiked back down from the midway point. Beautiful views! If you are just looking for a view, I too would recommend this.
As for the Eagle's Nest, it's a part of history. I did not visit the Eagle's Nest on my two trips to the area, but this was only because we were there in off-season before it opened. But we did visit the underground bunkers and documentation museum, which I found quite fascinating. Yes, the holocaust was a terrible part of history, but it should not be ignored nor forgotten. It's not unlike visiting a civil rights museum or plantation with slave villages still intact here in the US. It's an unpleasant reminder of a dark piece of American history but I doubt many would advocate for their destruction. You can't get rid of sites and pretend that it did not happen. Just about every country has history that they aren't proud of and to insinuate that those who choose to visit and learn are shameful is ridiculous.
Tracy
As for the Eagle's Nest, it's a part of history. I did not visit the Eagle's Nest on my two trips to the area, but this was only because we were there in off-season before it opened. But we did visit the underground bunkers and documentation museum, which I found quite fascinating. Yes, the holocaust was a terrible part of history, but it should not be ignored nor forgotten. It's not unlike visiting a civil rights museum or plantation with slave villages still intact here in the US. It's an unpleasant reminder of a dark piece of American history but I doubt many would advocate for their destruction. You can't get rid of sites and pretend that it did not happen. Just about every country has history that they aren't proud of and to insinuate that those who choose to visit and learn are shameful is ridiculous.
Tracy
Jun 22nd, 2010, 03:36 PM
#29
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tracy, this is not about the holocaust. It is about why people today chose to go there. It's not about vicitims it about the people responsable. If you'd be talking to a german, the first question would be why you go there? And of course the first thing that comes to mind would be you're an extremist (or totally ignorant). You'd really want to leave that impression. You wouldn't want that, right, but still you do.
I'm not someone that is politically left wing, but I'm quite sure the majority of the "Germans and others" living around the area would be very suspicous about your motivation.
Is this so hard to understand. I mean you really want that Braunau-Salzburg-Obersalzberg tour??
This is not the "The sound of music" nonsense, this is for real.
I'm not someone that is politically left wing, but I'm quite sure the majority of the "Germans and others" living around the area would be very suspicous about your motivation.
Is this so hard to understand. I mean you really want that Braunau-Salzburg-Obersalzberg tour??
This is not the "The sound of music" nonsense, this is for real.
Jun 22nd, 2010, 03:51 PM
#31
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Actually I did go to the documentation museum for learning. I don't know why else I would? It's a museum full of documents and information. Same thing with a concentration camp. I think it's important not to forget. Plus, lets be honest, the views from the Eagle's Nest are what probably drive most people to visit.
I visited a plantation in South Carolina with an old slave village still intact. I doubt any African Americans would accuse me of being racist or a KKK member because of it. It's part of history.
We've visited Dachau and there were so many people there. I hardly doubt every German would think that all visitors to a concentration camp were there because they were nazi worshipers. That just seems a little absurd.
I visited a plantation in South Carolina with an old slave village still intact. I doubt any African Americans would accuse me of being racist or a KKK member because of it. It's part of history.
We've visited Dachau and there were so many people there. I hardly doubt every German would think that all visitors to a concentration camp were there because they were nazi worshipers. That just seems a little absurd.
Jun 22nd, 2010, 04:04 PM
#33
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Tracy, the meuseum was built by the Bavarian gov to shy away the Nazis, that have increased considerably in numbers in the recenty years! They come from all over Europe. This isn't a concentration camp. It's like the tomb of Mussolini, it's about the killers, not the victims. And it has nothing to do with slaves. It's a place where people worship the killers. And even if they don't worship them, it's a place to get a kick out, for those people.
You'd find I'm with the majority. People don't usually tell, because tourists bring money and frankly many people think American tourists are quite naive anyway.
You'd find I'm with the majority. People don't usually tell, because tourists bring money and frankly many people think American tourists are quite naive anyway.
Jun 22nd, 2010, 04:08 PM
#34
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Logos, I understand your point about the Eagle's Nest. As I said above, I think *most* people visit the Eagle's Nest for the views. I could be wrong, of course, but in my guidebooks it's touted for it's views more than it's history. I personally didn't really have much of an interest in visiting as I got similar views from hiking Mt. Jenner.
Jun 22nd, 2010, 04:31 PM
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I totally disagree with you being a tourist trap, first, if research is done before, you know exactly what you will see up there. I went last year booking it with a small tour company from Salzburg. The day I went, it was overcast and the tour guide did strongly advise me that the view would be overcast, however, I chose to go anyway for a historical standpoint. I was able to go all over the dining room without eating anything at all. Yes, you are asked to pick a time to return, but again, if research is done in advance, you would know apx how long would be needed. As the tour guide had advised, the view was totally overcast, however, the drama of the view with the fog was very interesting. 3 years ago my parents went and their view was amazing! If you saw any of the postcards sold at the little souvenir stand, you would have seen the view, and if you don't think that's impressive, then, I don't know what you would think is impressive.
I'm not sure if you expected a little re-actement of Hitler being there? Just the sense of history is what that place is all about and to think of the harsh condition required for the construction is astounding. Also, if you had done your research, you would also know that Hitler didn't spend that much time at Eagle's Nest anyway.
I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy the location but to call it a tourist trap is a disservice to others who might be interested in visiting.
I'm not sure if you expected a little re-actement of Hitler being there? Just the sense of history is what that place is all about and to think of the harsh condition required for the construction is astounding. Also, if you had done your research, you would also know that Hitler didn't spend that much time at Eagle's Nest anyway.
I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy the location but to call it a tourist trap is a disservice to others who might be interested in visiting.
Jun 22nd, 2010, 04:39 PM
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If you want nice views in the area I'd suggest going to the Koenigssee take the boat to St. Bartholmae and walk up to Kaerlinger Haus(at about 2000 m) near the Austria border. Spend the night there and walk back down the next day to saletalm (have a glass of fresh buttermilk there). Before heading back on the boat make sure to take the 15 minute walk from the saletalm to the obersee where there's a nice waterfall.
Jun 22nd, 2010, 05:59 PM
#39
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logos999: Such a sad commentary you continue to perpetuate regarding >extremist (or totally ignorant)< visitors, historians, etc. to such places as the Kehlstein.
You said < You'd find I'm with the majority. People don't usually tell, because tourists bring money and frankly many people think American tourists are quite naive anyway.>
logos999, I struggle to believe that the majority of German people would agree with your position or assume that most 'American tourists are quite naive'. If that were the case I'm afraid that I've been duped by the majority of the wonderful, helpful, gracious and well informed German peoples (including relatives)whom I've encountered there over many years of visiting your wonderful country. True, there are indeed a few 'ugly Americans' among the visitors but to generalize and lump us all into the same category using such adjectives as 'totally ignorant', 'quite naive', 'extremist', etc. is a gross misrepresentation of the fact.
logos999, I used to regard your many posts with a reasonable degree of credibility albiet with a generous dose of arrogance. However, after this thread I will no longer place any credibility in your posts because I detect a deep undercurrent of negativity bouyed by insults, innuendo and innaccurate information. You may be able to redeem yourself with others on these forums by offering constructive and accurate informations and resourceful web sites but I'm affraid that you've lost me. How sad . . . I'll not give up my own search for truth, accuracy, etc. regarding WWII in my quest to do my part in trying to prevent a reoccurance of that ugly time in history. Can your heart be softened?
You referred to me as >"Another "Gutmensch"<. My German is not good but I assume that you meant 'another do-gooder'. I offer no apology for being 'another do-gooder' but I am am offended by your many unwarranted attacks on so many other good, helpful posters on these forums.
You said < You'd find I'm with the majority. People don't usually tell, because tourists bring money and frankly many people think American tourists are quite naive anyway.>
logos999, I struggle to believe that the majority of German people would agree with your position or assume that most 'American tourists are quite naive'. If that were the case I'm afraid that I've been duped by the majority of the wonderful, helpful, gracious and well informed German peoples (including relatives)whom I've encountered there over many years of visiting your wonderful country. True, there are indeed a few 'ugly Americans' among the visitors but to generalize and lump us all into the same category using such adjectives as 'totally ignorant', 'quite naive', 'extremist', etc. is a gross misrepresentation of the fact.
logos999, I used to regard your many posts with a reasonable degree of credibility albiet with a generous dose of arrogance. However, after this thread I will no longer place any credibility in your posts because I detect a deep undercurrent of negativity bouyed by insults, innuendo and innaccurate information. You may be able to redeem yourself with others on these forums by offering constructive and accurate informations and resourceful web sites but I'm affraid that you've lost me. How sad . . . I'll not give up my own search for truth, accuracy, etc. regarding WWII in my quest to do my part in trying to prevent a reoccurance of that ugly time in history. Can your heart be softened?
You referred to me as >"Another "Gutmensch"<. My German is not good but I assume that you meant 'another do-gooder'. I offer no apology for being 'another do-gooder' but I am am offended by your many unwarranted attacks on so many other good, helpful posters on these forums.
Jun 22nd, 2010, 06:11 PM
#40
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>How sad . . . I'll not give up my own search for truth
Yes, that what you should do, research! Maybe there are indeed a few interesting new findings, post and discuss them. That would be good imho. A good start, the search for truth. I'm trying to convey that thing, "truth" within my limited possibilities. No explanation for "Gutmensch" given here.
Yes, that what you should do, research! Maybe there are indeed a few interesting new findings, post and discuss them. That would be good imho. A good start, the search for truth. I'm trying to convey that thing, "truth" within my limited possibilities. No explanation for "Gutmensch" given here.
