Dutch football hooligans trash Rome
 

Over 6000 drunken Dutch Feyennoord "fans" rampaged through Rome for two days, trashing the Campo de'Fiori and the Piazza di Spagna, in the process knocking over parked motorcycles, throwing bottles, injuring 13 police officers, and urinating everywhere.

The worst damage was to Bernini's Fontana della Barcaccia, which had just been through an 11-month restoration. A 10-centimeter piece was broken from the rim, and there were other chips and scratches from thrown bottles.

The word "barbarians" is being used a lot in Rome newspapers today, and apologies are demanded, but there are also people calling for the heads of politicians who didn't manage to prevent this, especially since the rampage in Campo de'Fiori happened Wednesday night, and the destruction in Piazza di Spagna the following afternoon.

Historically "barbarians" was the generic name given during the Empire to all peoples outside the Latin speaking world. In this context, barbarian is a suitable designation, in more than one sense of the word.

Why is this always such a surprise to local authorities?

They know it is going to happen - why not simply contain it with riot police (shields and rubber bullets and tear gas - not real guns). Then convict them of riot and give them 30 days in jail - perhaps then they won't do it again in some other hapless country.

well at least it wasn't brits this time. The dutch are always being held up as examples to our fans, which in this case would not be a good idea.

NYT - they may know that it's going to happen, [or may have been hoping like hell that the Campo dei Fiori incident was an isolated one] but possibly not where - and you can't cordon off the whole of the centre of Rome.

bvl - Barbarians indeed. Did they catch any of them?

Disgusting! I hope Italy can prosecute some of them!

Football/soccer is so wholesome in the US, this and the Paris metro incident perplexes.

I suppose it is all about binge drinking, which the UK and the Netherlands do particularly well, at least the youth.

http://www.ias.org.uk/uploads/images...pad2003-f5.jpg

I am deeply saddened that this happened anywhere, and particularly Rome, but it is not unexpected. To quote the Daily Mail (not known for its love of football hooligans)

"Rome is notorious for its footballing violence, and has been the scene of bloodshed for Tottenham Hotspur, Manchester United and England fans in recent years."

I'm not going to pretend that all football fans are saints, but Feyenoord fans do have a bit of a reputation, and my experience of Italian police when faced with "hard" fans, is that they get their retaliation in early.

I've been a football fan nearly all my life. I've followed the same club through all four English divisions, watched domestic and european club games, been to International matches and even a World cup. The majority of fans are out to enjoy the game and possibly a little banter. I've attended games with among others, a Nasa scientist, university professors, an award winning screenwriter and with numerous civilised, educated people. It is such a shame that the game also attracts more than it's fair share of yobos, morons, yahoos and simply criminals.

I've certainly known screenwriters who were capable of being drunken football louts or all around louts even when they were sober. Ditto university professors. Only NASA scientist I ever knew destroyed both his children with sadistic parenting, but might have been the pinnacle of civility at soccer matches.

Football hooliganism is tacitly supported by nearly everybody who thinks it adds some sass and fun to the game. Little element of danger and gladitorial masculine fun.

In fact, now that I think of it, the only soccer match I ever attended in England, at Arsenal, was in the company of several Oxford dons. One of them giggled uncontrollably everytime the "yobs" screamed obscenities at the opposing team. A lot of educated civilized people get off vicariously watching behavior they don't dare indugle in directly.

Anyway, hope the Roman police are better prepared next time or games are moved well out of reach of the historic city.

The match was at the Olympic stadium, which is well away from the center. These louts came to Rome at least a day early in order to rampage. The game itself had no problems, and even the fans going to the game were well behaved, although there was a heavy police presence.

The city was expecting something of the sort, and had 1200 officers assigned to containing the damage, but according to news estimates, there were 6000 drunken hooligans, in large packs, roaming the center of Rome yesterday.

If I remember correctly, 25 were arrested.

And in Spain they just riot and kill one of the opponents supporters.
http://deportes.elpais.com/deportes/...98_257196.html
football who needs it?

Here's a photo of some of the worst damage to the Fontana della Barcaccia, a masterpiece by Bernini:

http://media.internazionale.it/image.../106016-md.jpg

It's worse than I had imagined. Some experts are saying it can't be repaired.

Maybe they'll have to put all of Rome's artistic treasures behind transparent panels, as they've had to do with the Pietà.

American college campuses often experience the effects of binge drinking - especially after big wins - like at The Ohio State University on High Street every so often.

World Series titles or Super Bowl triumphs can also end in a drunk rampage - cars burned, etc.

Every year the Spring Something at Michigan State University ends in thousands of under age students binge drinking and setting fires to cars and trying to tip over even cop cars - a general mayhem.

It ain't a European thing - now in South America they do take it to new levels however.

I've seen Dutch soccer hooligans in action before - once after a big match at The Amsterdam Olympic Staidum I witnessed a group of younger folks board a tram and then try to rock it over - nearly succeeding bfore cops on horses arrive the shew them of and away.

It's not soccer that causes it it's beer - we have the same but since soccer is not our only big sport it just happens in many venues on college campuses - spring flings gone wild - a rite of spring almost.

Manchester United victims of football violence in Rome? Don't make me laugh!

A lot of the football violence in Italy doesn't involve drunkenness. It's more often extreme right-wing or extreme left-wing political excuses; I wouldn't deign to call it motivation.

The University of Michigan is one of the top top handful of public universities in the U.S. and attracts a fairly wealthy student for undergrads - but just a few weeks ago several frats and sororities rented out some ski lodges up in northern Michigan and partied down, causing well over $100,000 in damages - probably due to binge drinking.

Young males are young males anywhere and with enough booze can turn into crazed animals.

"Manchester United victims of football violence in Rome? Don't make me laugh!"

Are you really so pitiably ignorant of how racist louts in your adopted country behave?

Or are the repulsive chants, and near-psychotic violence, of Lazio supporters presented by Burlesque-oni's pathetic media as just what boys do?

I'm sorry to say it, bvl, but italian fans are as capable as any others of mindless violence:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/italian-ultras-stabbing-tottenham-fans-1450423>>

i'm very sorry to see the damage to the Bernini fountain.

Soccer brings out the worst in crowds and fans - what about when some England team lost in Turkey and blamed foul play for the defeat and then during matches in England the whole staidum or many started shouting:

"I'd rather be a Paki than a Turk" - wow - low blow and double damnation of two ethnic groups in merry old England - no wonder that England is a hotbed of Muslim alientation and can't assimilation the many Muslims they have into mainstream culture - resulting in reported (Murdoch) no go zones in Manchester and on Coronation Street even!

To me it seems all soccer-crazed nations have this problem - yes even the Dutch- the goody two shoes Dutch!

I know there are violent louts in Italy. However, Manchester United is notorious and the idea of their being innocent victims of violence is risible.


Italy's football hooliganism is mostly domestic, and motivated by political extremism. They go after each other, sometimes in murderous ways, and some of them are crudely racist. I'm certainly not defending any of them.

Here is the image of stickers that Feyennord plastered on the walls of Rome:

http://www.repstatic.it/content/loca...e79ca24251.jpg

It shows the Capitoline wolf decapitated, by what I assume is supposed to be a brave Feyyenoord knight in armor. Since they obviously brought these stickers with them, it looks as though the whole thing were planned.

actually, bvl, the ManU fans are by no means as notorious as they once were; Chelsea are presently at the top of the tree of infamy.

and it goes without saying that the vast majority of fans, even travelling ones, are going to want to avoid trouble not encounter it. Except perhaps in the case of Feyenoord - as you say, it looks as if it was planned.

Hopefully the club will be heavily fined.

Barbarians Sack Rome! - i love seeing the wholesome goody-two-shoes Dutch being called Barbarians! Tsk tsk!

I don't see any purpose in opining that other teams' fans are just as bad or worse. This is sickening behavior no matter where it occurs and who is involved.

When this sort of cr@p happens in Los Angeles, it often involves people/instigators with an anarchist bent who have no interest in the particular sport.

There is a big different between offensive chants from the crowd (as anyone at a Yankee/Red Sox game can testify) and active violence (which is typically limited to the teams on the field in baseball).

There should be some way to 1) either control drinking during games (one can;t bring alcohol into many stadiums - have to buy it there at very high prices) or track violent crowds.
We're talking about large cities which presumably have significant police forces they can put on alert and rush to any area with rioting drunken louts. Why not just put a thousand or so cops on OT for the time after the game? I understand some small university towns, which many have tiny police forces can;t do it but a major city force should be able to.

nytrveler - there is also a BIG difference in chants we commonly hear here - like "ref you suck" and ethnic slur chants as has been the case too many times in various European soccer venues, including the U.K.

If a stadium as a whole chanted "I'd rather be a Paki than a Turk" (Paki being derogatory in itself I think) there would be a huge hullabaloo about it - condemnation from every corner - but it would never ever happen here or at least has not in my long (but short) memory - something about soccer that brings out the worst in the worst and that stadium chant in the U.K. was not just a few folks but the majority chiming in.

Inteesting article from The Guardian on this chant being racist or not:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/apr/09/race.world

and another one from West Ham, usually sad sacks "I'd rather be a Paki than a Jew"

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t369703/

nyt - yes, they have thought of all that. in the UK violence at or going to or from the grounds has been greatly reduced as the fans are kept apart both in the grounds and along the routes to them, the pubs are restricted in what they can sell, there is no alcohol allowed to be brought into the ground, and lots of police are deployed.

The problem becomes worse when fans are abroad, and they are dispersed all over a city, popping up, as in Rome, at more or less random places.

For example, there was a problem this week in Paris when some so-called Chelsea fans decided to insult and assault a parisian chap who was simply trying to get onto the metro carriage that they were in. His offence - he wasn't white. They were filmed by another brit [who lives in Paris] and saw what was going on. Their faces are clearly visible and 5 "fans" have now apparently had their Chelsea season tickets suspended. It is not clear whether these were the same charmers who chanted racist slogans at St. Pancras when they got back. They weren't rioting or even noticeably drunk, and there don't appear to have been that many of them - certainly nothing to attract the interest of the police until the problems occurred.

I was just reading a news article about Italians who took to twitter make fun of the ISIS threat to to invade Rome and one of them tweeted at ISIS:

"You are coming to Rome? Ok, it's safe now. The Dutch soccer hooligans went home."

There was no alcohol on sale to take away in central Rome on the day of the game and no alcohol in the stadium. As I said before, the fans in the stadium were fairly well behaved. It's possible that most of the hooligans didn't have tickets, or maybe they had all passed out by then.

The Questore of Rome (police commissioner) made a very sorry showing in his post disaster account of what happened. He basically said that the police action was a success, because no one was killed.

oh dear, that's not encouraging, bvl.

there is a long history of organised violence amongst a minority of football fans - it's much more to do with the violence than the football.

I find the staidum-wide chants of ethic or racial slurs as upsetting as the usual violence - both are reprehensible - the slurs often involve a majority or most of the fans at a stadium as the herd mentality takes over.

and Pal, the racial/ethnic element is bizarre because the vast majority of teams have black players, so they are effectively insulting their own players.

In Italy, racist fans regularly insult their own side's non-white players.

I didn't read the police statement, nor much about the situation in Rome, but I would be quite heartened if the police in America took people not being killed as a primary measure of success. Sometimes you get the feeling it is just the opposite. I am sorry the fountain in Rome was damaged and that other laws and harm were done. But I am also glad no one was killed, and if the police did anything to help prevent that, good, even if there is more to be said.

oh well, bvl, that's something for us to be proud of then! our fans generally only insult the other side's black players, which must be progress of a sort.

Sandra, if you had seen the press conference, I think you'd realize that the man was totally out of his depth and dragged that out in desperation. I think the mayor also bears some blame. At the very least, after what happened on the evening before in Campo de'Fiori, he should have made sure that measures were being taken to prevent even worse the next day. Instead, he's shocked and appalled about what happened. There's a lot of finger-pointing going on.

oh well, bvl, that's something for us to be proud of then! our fans generally only insult the other side's black players, which must be progress of a sort.<<

Which would be more in my gnomic style ann?

Je Maintiendrai or If you aint Dutch, you aint much

Yes, but while racial slurs are reprehensible they are a different thing than actual violence.

And agree the Rome Police Chief must be a booby.

Talking of West Ham
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...-10062518.html

Yes, but while racial slurs are reprehensible they are a different thing than actual violence.>

Sure but OTOH violence is often a spur of the moment reaction that quickly spreads - racial or ethnic slurs are much more thought out and planned - being repeated at other matches, etc.

I think some of the violence may be by those not even going to the matches.

I think some of the violence may be by those not even going to the matches.>>

exactly. The violence becomes an aim in itself. In the 70s and 80s many of the teams in the UK had "fans" who formed racist gangs whose raison d'être was to set up fights with other gangs of so-called fans. The football was more-or less irrelevant.

Josser - love the Hammers clip. Football clubs have so much to gain from encouraging non-white fans to attend the games, given that in most UK cities, they make up a sizeable part of the population. Yet still there is an attitude that the racist chanting etc that we all know still goes on isn't really the responsibility of the clubs. They could easily identify and ban the culprits if they really wanted to.