Dutch Emigration Fair
 

I know The Netherlands is experiencing alot of changes in its society, but I was somewhat taken aback by hearing of the record number of ethnic Dutch who are fleeing their country. I think last year 100,000. These are well-educated, middle-class people holding jobs, but nonetheless, they are leaving for greener pastures. In March, an Emigration Fair was held in Utrecht that drew record numbers of people. Is this a trend in other European countries as well? I was surprised to hear as well of the large French ex-pat numbers in England, as the new French leader even went to London to campaign. Anyone have any light to shed on this?

Author: janisj
Date: 07/19/2007, 11:54 am
sorry - but stick to the lounge. Silly thread for this forum . . . . .

>nonetheless, they are leaving for greener pastures. In March, an Emigration Fair was held in Utrecht that drew record numbers of people

Most of these people are moving to neighbouring countries - often retirees who go to Spain and Portugal.

British "emigrate" to France, the French "emigrate" to England, the Dutch move around Europe...

It´s not like people are fleeing overseas.

I didn't think it was silly at all. I've been to alot of countries in Europe and never heard about nor seen this phenonema before. Maybe others with first hand knowlege, those that have recently been to the Nethelands, have better info than I; thats why I posted here.

I agree with you as i post many topics like this and often janis berates me for 'take it to the lounge'

but to me the Europe site is not just to answer questions about Oyster Cards and whether white tennis shoes are Verboten but just such topics as i like to understand current topics to be a better informed traveler.

And in the lounge, where most topics are not Europe related at all and there are loonies who would visciouly attack you for this the discussion never develops as it will in this forum where folks from Europe and not will thoughtfully discuss the issue.

I think, like the French moving not only to England but also Altamiro to Silicon Valley because of opportunities at home are so stilted (my French son now studying in US thinks this is very so) - French upward mobility often impossible unless you went to some fancy grand ecole, etc. But esepcially in high-tech industry moving to US and UK because of much better opportunities to succeed.

Holland may be different a bit but because it's so small there obviously are more lucartive job opportunities abroad for the many very educated folk the country produces.

And one must consider that high taxes in Europe are a factor - UK even has lot less than France or probably Holland.

Thus i don't think folks are emigrating because they don't like their country but just for economical reasons

There are similar fairs in London (and elsewhere in the UK), but they are focused on single countries, mostly France and Spain, perhaps Italy and Cyprus too. We attended the France one...as altamiro noted, a good chunk of those were retirees cashing in on the inflated values of their UK houses and looking for bigger or more luxurious or carefree digs in sunnier, warmer climes. Or people looking to set up hospitality businesses in another country (BnBs, wine tours, whatever).
However, I am surprised to hear them called Emigration Fairs.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I too, don't believe that they don't like their country; but seem more economically motivated.

> I think, like the French moving not only to England but also Altamiro to Silicon Valley

PalenQ, these are a relatively little segment of the emigrants. The Dutch, as well as Germans, do cultivate moaning about the own country and find the grass greener on the other side of the fence - and they move there. Most of these "emigrants" (70-80%) "emigrate" to Spain or Greece.
It is mostly comparable with Americans "emigrating" to Florida.

Then emigration is not the word to be used if that's the case. As assumedly these southern retirees would perhaps return to their home countries in summer, like many Floridians.

It's simply relocation within in the EU

Having been in UK a lot i know that many younger folk have told me they would like to emigrate to America - for better economic chances as they are in professions like nursing, etc. in demand in US and much higher pay and lower taxes.

>It's simply relocation within in the EU

Yes, but it is often thrown in the same pot. I recently watched a TV program (German) about emigration from Germany and "emigration" to Spain and to New Zealand was covered in the same way. NL/Germany and Spain ARE different countries so for legal/statisitical purposes it is emigration.

>for better economic chances as they are in professions like nursing, etc. in demand in US

UK - maybe. There is no language barrier, so it is probably easier to just plop into the labor market.
Emigration (in the classical sense of the word) to USA is not that big on the continent; some people either take up jobs over there (after applying from here) or start a new company, since there is much less red tape for this in the USA.

So ofte cited "much lower taxes" are an example of missed "mixed calculation" - these expenses just turn up somewhere else in your budget.
(btw. I asked a friend with USA experience what I would pay in USA in terms of incoem taxes with the same income as I have now in Germany - and he came up with a pretty much similar number). It´s the indirect taxes (VAT, gasoline, etc.) that are lower.

There have been several newspaper articles I have read about Dutch people deciding they would leave for Canada. And I've met a few who have come lately (as opposed to the 1950s or 1960s).

Altamiro: doesn't Germany have a steeply graduated income tax? The more you make the more you pay?

Used to be like that in U.S. but Bushies have reduced 'burden' on the wealthy.

I'd stay a high income person may pay far less taxes in U.S. than in Germany. I admit i don't really know and am wondering if so.

As a middle class type i'd pay a lot in taxes to have the social net system that many European countries do. I have to pay $3,000 a year in health insurance for example so that would come off income and in Germany the health care costs should be much lower.

So hard to compare but i think very rich would benefit more by being in U.S.

>Altamiro: doesn't Germany have a steeply graduated income tax? The more you make the more you pay?

Yes - but the top income class is not that easily reached (let´s say the top earning 10%).

>Used to be like that in U.S. but Bushies have reduced 'burden' on the wealthy.

The wealthy can avoid tax burden anywhere on this planet anyway.

>I'd stay a high income person may pay far less taxes in U.S. than in Germany. I admit i don't really know and am wondering if so.

Surely - if your monthly income tops 10-15 kEuro and you are single you will be massively hit up here. But we are talking about average earner, right?

>As a middle class type i'd pay a lot in taxes to have the social net system that many European countries do. I have to pay $3,000 a year in health insurance for example so that would come off income and in Germany the health care costs should be much lower.

In Germany you pay percentages (like, 6,5% of your gross income) but it is fully tax deductible. The major difference is - you are a member/contributor to a health fund, not a business risk to be eliminated.

So hard to compare but i think very rich would benefit more by being in U.S.

Agree.

I have once read about a funny poll: Americans and Germans were asked whether they think they are among top 10% earners, middle 80%, or lower 10%. well over 30% of all Americans saw themselves in the top 10% and almost none in the lowest 10%, while the relation was inverted with Germans.

<Surely - if your monthly income tops 10-15 kEuro and you are single you will be massively hit up here. But we are talking about average earner, right?>

no not really - at least the literally thousands of French in Kent or Silicon Valley - they are in a field that they at least think they may reach that level - highly skilled high-tech folk. They may not reach it but they probably suffer perhaps from the delusion in many Americans that you point out - they think they will be high rollers and better chance for this in States and then lower taxes.

I don't know if it's a canard or not but the cap practically on big salaries due to escalating taxes does cause some young to emigrate - their numbers may not be big in the big picture but their effect as an economic drain cannot perhaps be underestimated. Again i think France to be a better example of this than Germany.

Dutch farmers are moving to Canada. Other Dutch folk "emigrate" a few kilometres over the border into Germany because the houses are cheaper/bigger or to Belgium for the same reason and the tax benefits. Others retire to warmer climes - who can blame them, and a good proportion are remigrants -people returning to their counry of origin, even though they have Dutch nationality (turks, Maroccans, Surnamers, Antillians amongst them). There are always more non ethnic Dutch leaving than ethnic Dutch. The young Dutch who leave find it too crowded and too expensive. And moving to jobs within Europe is what the EU is all about. I wouldn't be lving in Holland otherwise.
The Dutch, like the British, dream of moving some where warm, and like the British have formed ghettos in Spain. But equally the Dutch who stay in Holland are amongst the happiest (most contented) people in Europe.
I think the article you read translated the name of the fair too literally - it is also aimed at second homers and retirees.

There are quite a few Dutch farmers buying up dairy farms in MidWest - often creating mega farms unlike which is possible back home - again grandeur ambitions than afforded by congested old world. And they also traffic in cow sperm they export from here.

Perhaps Europeans are more used to the idea of migration than Americans are. I am always suprised that Americans hardly seem to know the word "emigration", as a converse to "immigration".

From Britain, a lot of people emigrate to other European countries and to the "Old Commonwealth" of Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Places like Thailand are also popular. In addition, there are older people who maybe came here in the 1950s and 1960s who decide to return to the Caribbean, or India or Pakistan, in retirement. Some people go because they see greater opportunities, or want a better climate.

It depends on your point of view whether you see this as people "fleeing" the country, or just another aspect of globalisation.

&quot;<i>often janis berates me for 'take it to the lounge'</i>&quot;

Uh - once = &quot;often&quot;????

several times and i understand your point - but read my comments about the lounge and also i feel these type of threads are pertinent to travel.

Lounge threads are not travel-related at all.

This is the only time I've said anything like that - so &quot;several&quot; still doesn't fly.

The only other time I've said anything remotely similar was posting &quot;how did I know this was a PQ thread?&quot;

I tend to avoid posting to your trivia threads.

&gt;It depends on your point of view whether you see this as people &quot;fleeing&quot; the country, or just another aspect of globalisation.

And it can be, when certain aspects are omitted, perfectly abused for political goals. Like the European nationalist right blaming &quot;too many foreigners&quot; on the emigration, or the American conservatives by making it look like the people flee the European social system.

OK it was a silly thing for me to post here - i regret it and a lapse of judgment though when folks do that - also uncalled for satire like on your part and about take it to the lounge i feel they should just not click on the post but not try to prevent discussion.

The trivia threads often lead to great discussions that make me a more informed traveler.

Sorry - apologeticPal

There is an excellent reason for not posting this on the lounge: avoiding BM.

well i was going to say exactly that - how one rotten apple can destroy the whole barrel, or lounge in this case.

Land has always been very valuable to the Dutch. There is a long history of them buying land in Canada and they have always been welcomed.
When we were in Holland there was a lot of talk about the government buying back land and having it remain as a trust. This is a switch from the effort to reclaim land from the sea. It also has far-reaching effects on farmers and their families. I would suspect that this has something to do with this emigration.

&gt; I would suspect that this has something to do with this emigration.

I would assume rather the reverse. It is still very expensive to claim new land from the sea, and expensive to keep it dry. The farmers who own the land have to pay these costs, which don´t occur in Canada or Midwest USA. Going where agricultural land is cheap or changing the occupation is often the only choice for the farmers.

brennyp - in fairness to janisj, whose quote i copied from one of my posts that were not travel related - i don't think she would think your OP to be silly - just not in the right forum. To be honest the post she added that on of mine probably was a silly post. But yours is not so i errored in putting that word in her mouth here. These type of posts are what many Fodorites enjoy it seems as much as posts which i consider silly - like where is the best gelato in Italy.

agreed Palenq. Just trying to educate myself and find out more info. I just though it was interesting. Plus, I am very interesting in European news/current events and I find it hard to come by sometimes.

&gt;&gt;And they also traffic in cow sperm they export from here.&lt;&lt;

Sounds like there have been some interesting and unexpected developments in animal husbandry in the States! Is this something to do with all the hormones that are supposedly pumped into cattle over there, PalenQ?

I have a farming uncle who lives near a dairy farm that was bought by a dike jumper - and turned into a mega farm with over a 1,000 milking herd.

This farmer traffics in sperm but i think it was developed in Holland and he brought it over and started his own herd with the genetic trait that produces such huge cows and udders.

Me i find it udderly interesting - i think hormones are more pumped into steers to fatten and lesser into dairy cows, who however may be fed antibiotics - don't really know but the debate about cow doping, like the Tour de France doping, continues.

Hi A,

&gt;...what I would pay in USA in terms of incoem taxes with the same income as I have now in Germany - and he came up with a pretty much similar number..

He actually filled out a form 1040 for you, or he checked the tax rate schedule and gave you a percentage?

You can do it yourself, if you wish. Download Form 1040 at www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/forms_pubs/index.html

If you are still working, add 8% of your gross for FICA and Medicare.

Unless you live in a State that doesn't have income tax, you will have to also download a form for that State.

Sales tax is about 6%.

Property taxes vary by location.

I'd be quite surprised to find that your tax burden in the US would be as high as it is in Germany.

((I))

A quick update on Dutch emigration, based on new figures out today - the numbers emigrating is falling - 46,000 in the first 6 months of 2007 compared to 57,000 in the same period last year. Most popular destinations are Germany, Belgium, UK, Dutch Antilles and Spain. Less than 50% of those emigrating were born in The Netherlands. So it really is not so bad. Especially as those going to Germany/Belgium are still working in the Netherlands usually, just living over the border so officially they have emigrated.

&gt;He actually filled out a form 1040 for you, or he checked the tax rate schedule and gave you a percentage?

No, he just estimated it based on what he gets and pays. Btw. he is based in NY (upstate).

&gt;You can do it yourself, if you wish. Download Form 1040 at www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/forms_pubs/index.html

Sorry, the link doesn´t work...

&gt;If you are still working, add 8% of your gross for FICA and Medicare.

&quot;Still&quot;!! I have a few decades before me.
If FICA is something like pension fund -it is fully tax deductible here in Germany. The problem is only that you pay high taxes throughout the year, then spend days filling out numerous forms (do you know that over half of the world´s taxation-related literature is in German?), then wait another few months for the tax credit.