Jerome

Now Anon don't get me wrong, I have been living a couple of years in America and I LOVE your country. The criticism I am making here could applie as well in many ways to my country France. I think "real" freedom is an utopia, some countries have more freedom than others, and America certainly does but I think it is far less free than what it claims.<BR>Stereotipes and misconceptions exists on any country, one of the misconception for instance that french have on americans is to think they are often quite superficials. I found that to be not true at all (actually it is the opposite, americans sometime do take things too seriously ). I think Italians (don't be offended Italians out there! I love your country) to be much more superficials. However, I found the stereotipe of americans being a little bit naive to be true (of course I realise I am generalising) and I found the medias (the way they almost never couvered anything happening outside of the US), the educational system (geography and history...quite poor...), and hollywood doing EVERYTHING to help the government to keep this "naiveness" or "innocence" very high among the US population.<BR>I am courious to know your opinions and arguments

what?

Jerome, thanks for the tired cliches.<BR><BR>"Propaganda"? So this prosperity and political freedom isn't real? It's just an "illusion"? (And it all seems so real).<BR><BR>Companies "always sacrifice quantity for quality"? U.S. consumers are "victims." (And they don't even know it. They all seem generally satisfied.)<BR><BR>What you say might sound good in leftist forum or a university discussion (only a slight difference). But it doesn't wash in the real world.<BR><BR>Political freedom to you is an illusion, and "America is no exception"? Perhaps you should go sample the political and economic freedoms of North Korea. That might help you figure out what's real and what's "illusion."

antibigot

Pete is a bored, lonely, insecure bigot who goes around the various Fodors forum under different guises trying to stir up racist debate. He did it in Asia. Read it and you'll notice the similar style of writing.

terrier

Life is cheap because of overpopulation?? My my, going by your reasoning, it's like saying you don't mourn the deaths of 3000 because NY is overpopulated anyway.Get lost you racist b******!

Jill

I knew it would be a matter of time before people started accusing Pete of all kinds of things. Being a number of people, now that is a real interesting idea! Or that he is lonley because he has these ideas.<BR><BR>I view him as a sincere person who is troubled by his feelings and wants the travel board to discuss their thoughts. Well with over 50 responses, he has accomplished that!

Sue

Steve, the point you made about the Index of Economic Freedom versus GNP is interesting, but can one really see the Index as an independent variable? It seems there could be considerable subjectivity expressed in designating any particular activity as being a positive attribute towards economic freedom. We can't really assume that there are no conflicting economic interests, even in those societies deemed most 'democratic.' Thus, 'filling out forms' might compromise the economic freedom of, say, management, but it might guarantee more economic freedom for, say, labour. Not to make a pitch for either side, just to say that management and labour alike both could claim that what they seek is in the best interest of economic freedom, for example. <BR><BR>Meanwhile, Pete, I still think it's not so much that you are becoming more closed minded, but more that you have realized just how complex the world really is. One can no more singlemindedly embrace a culture that one encounters than one can singlemindedly reject it. It is, as Yul Brynner was apt to say, a puzzlement.

miranti

I live in a third world country, and see how foreigners may view us with contempt.
We live in squalor, our governments are hopeless, and we are simply a mass of dispensable faceless people.
Maybe it's time for people to stop and think why large chunks of the world live in poverty which tends to breed squalor, corruption, ugliness.
I read in an earlier post about how the poor deserve to be poor because their countries do not create the conditions to create wealth - ie it is not about fair wealth distribution.
The situation is more complex than that. Think of the many corrupt dictators that survive because they are supported by powerful foreign nations for their interests. Or should we blame the victims for not rising up in a revolution?
Think of the unfair way world trade is structured where poor countries have no access to rich markets.
These are not the only reasons but I point these out in reply to those who think that the world is fair, and those who are poor deserve to be poor.

I understand how easy it is to feel superior but think whether your superior position is due to your hard work/innate ability/sheer intelligence, or just pure luck in the place of birth. Did you do anything to deserve being wealthy?

No, I don't think travel changes anyone. It tends to reinforce prejudices.
I, too, have travelled widely in Europe, spending some years living there. Yes, I, too, have had my prejudices reinforced but I don't let that rule my emotions I think hard to find the source of my prejudice, and think hard whether there's justification. Often, prejudice rests in a flaw in your own thinking, and insecurity in your ownself.

Neil_Oz

Well said, miranti. We in the West don't have clean hands. A while back we Australians led the UN mission to free the East Timorese people from Indonesian oppression; now we're trying to bilk them out of their offshore oil revenues.

The only Asian countries I've visited (apart from Singapore) are Vietnam and China and yes, there are some confronting aspects of life there, not the least being the treatment of the weak in countries whose ruling parties still have the gall to label themselves &quot;communist&quot;.

But who can point the finger? Not so long ago many people in now-wealthy countries like mine were living in similar conditions, and we had a head start with the industrial revolution.

Yes, by and large political, legal and social institutions here are fairer and stronger, but hopefully this too is just a question of time.

On the plus side, everywhere in Vietnam and China I found friendly, gregarious and cheerful people whose energy and talent will certainly ensure future prosperity. Watching the community life in the back streets of Hanoi and Beijing made me think how cold and isolated the suburban streets of my city would seem to these people.

OK, the residents of the Beijing hutong are being kicked out to live in high-rise apartment blocks by unscrupulous property developers with politicians and bureaucrats in the pockets, and they're being fed crap by their government's propaganda machine. Well, in an admittedly milder and more opposable form I could say the same about some events in Australia.

Having said that, I've met many people here who returned from their travels with all their prejudices intact. All I can say is that I've returned with an increased appreciation of other cultures - and my own.

mousireid

Its not WRONG its just DIFFERENT. Humanity good and bad, countries and towns and people all different colors, religions, ethics and values with over or under active government, programs and traditins. Its not for everybody but perhaps you incorporate what you learn into your own life and realize how 'lucky' you are to have your own beliefs be what you want them to be? Mayube you are just one of those folks who realize being closer to home is the place for you? Living somewhere and visiting are never the same thing, often growing up in these areas and REALLY experiencing them may give you a different view point...oh wait you did! Perhaps others around the world may think differently of Wyoming/USA? Bloody Americans? No...
DIFFERENT not WRONG in their eyes too.