mm
I'm all for breaking down cultural barriers but I'm sad to see many cultural differences being watered down. In Canada, we talk about a 'mosaic' rather than a 'melting pot'. I don't know if it actually works beyond a generation or two of immigration but I do love the various ethnic neighbourhoods in Toronto. I want everybody to bring the best of their homeland here.

We were in Korea not that long ago, as guests of the Korean government, and as I would travel by train every day from Suwon to Seoul it was amazing to me that all I saw were Koreans. It might seem logical but here in Toronto you would never just see caucasian Canadians on the subway here. We were also taken to several 'typical Korean' dinners so we got on the topic of where we might take a Korean guest for a 'typical Canadian' dinner and we decided we'd have to take him out for Italian. Or Chinese. Or Greek. Or Thai. Or Japanese. Or, or, or...

mm, if you read my posts above, you'd see that I believe that the differences are more in the nature of the people and our political choices than in the administrivia of daily life. I don't know if Americans would agree with you that (I assume you meant) American and Canadian are synonymous, but I'm pretty sure that most Canadians wouldn't agree.

I see no more difference in the London of today compared to 10, 20, or 30 years ago than I do in any other city.

New York is still recognizable, but there are superficial differences everywhere that make it "feel" different.

It isn't Americanization - it's late 20th/early 21st century commercialism.

(Alas, I <u>do</u> miss the taste of a Wimpey, though.)

Good grief.

I just looked at wimpyburgers.co.uk and found there are 21 restaurants in the London area. I've been in probably a dozen of the neighborhoods listed, and never noticed a shop. When the one at Victoria disappeared, I thought the McDonaldization of Blighty was complete.

I remember visiting London for the first time in 1971 and there are two memories I still have of that time and place..

1. The coins were humongeous. If I gave somebody a &pound;1 bank note (yes they existed then) to pay for something that cost 10p and got 90p back in change (9 10p or 2 shilling coins) I quickly discovered why the monetary unit was called the pound...

2. The foul taste of wimpy hamburgers; perhaps the most foul tasting hamburgers it has ever been my displeasure to eat.

Surprised they're still around.

Hi hdm,

It was my intention that calling someone an American is synomyous with being a U.S. citizen. Of course we all know that Canada and Mexico are part of North America but the term 'American' almost always applies to people from the USA. Not a good thing nor a bad thing, just a thing!

My father and my grandparents on both side were born in Nova Scotia and I was born in the US. I still have a lot of 'people' up there and know many of them. Legal and political systems aside, I think Americans and Canadians are like siblings seperated at birth.

On another note, I remember Bush's speech to the nation after 911. He had Tony Blair in the audience. He noted Blair's presence and said something like Britian being America's greatest friend and ally. I disagree. I think the US and Canada are as close as any two nations have ever been.

mm

&quot;Juat out of curiosity, politics and socialized medicine aside, how do you find every day life in the US to be so dramatically different than every day life in Canada.&quot;

First, Canada does not have socialized medicine. The government pays, but you choose your doc - if you can find one. The system is so underfunded that it is near impossible to find a family doc in places like Toronto. And the waiting time for procedures is insane. 2-3 years for a hip replacement, for excample is commob. More and more people just go to the US rather than to wait.

Anyway, for day to day life, the difference is zip - except when the Torono Star or CBS goes on one of its frequent anti-American rants. I moved to Toronto for 2 years, and the only thing that seemed different was the location of the traffic signs. My wife is Canadian and she grw up watch mostly the same TV and movies, reading the same books, etc. as I did. We are 99% the same, whether Canadians like it or not.

The difference between the US and Canada are smaller than difference between US regions. I'm from Pennsylvania, and Ontario was a lot more like home than Kentucky was. Same in Canada. Out west, they hate Ontario and often say that they wish the border ran north-south rather than east west.

Americans must understand this basic fact: Canadians have no real identity, other than not being American. They like to play it up as much as possible, but that doesn't change the facts

I think most people in the USA view Canadians like they view their next door neighbor. Usually quiet and not bothersome, but there in time of crises.

Who wouldn't want a neighbor like Canada? Good folks, don't have a bunch of run down cars in the front yard, keeps up with the lawn maintenance, etc.

Yes, we have differences, but you do with your neighbors in your subdivision too.

I absolutely doubled over laughing at David West’s posts regarding Starbucks patrons and sushi eaters; somehow tickled my funny-bone, and can’t explain why. I don’t even understand half of the words he used (from California here) to describe Starbuck’s regulars but I believe it would have made a great SNL sketch!

&lt;&lt;However what they probably didn’t expect was that they would also be popular with poodlefakers, nathans, wrong ‘uns, student grants, cockmongers, speccy weeds, yummy mummies, MILFS and even GILFS and the other flotsam and jetsam of modern british life.&gt;&gt;

&lt;&lt;That’s cold sticky rice right? Will you people come to your senses? You are eating fish that you would send back as undercooked in a restaurant together with buggered-up cold rice. And you have the nerve to pass this off as something good? Zut alors!

Do you want to buy a bridge? I’ve got one I’ll let you have cheap. I’ll even throw in some magic beans. (well if you will eat RAW BLOODY FISH you’ll fall for anything)&gt;&gt;

Returning you to your more serious posts…..

Thanks, ncgirl. And you've made my point well. You can coexist with your next-door neighbour and live similar lives but you would, I hope, stop at saying that there were no differences between you just because you shared a similar lifestyle.

Imhornet bases his judgement of Canada on a whole two years of experience as a Canadian. I base my judgement on a lifetime. And while the medical system here isn't perfect, it's still excellent. Yes, some people wait for surgery that's not deemed 'emergency' but to the greatest extent money does not buy you better service so that the rich have healthcare and the poor don't. Two years ago I had to have major surgery. I was diagnosed in late September by a top doctor at one of our best hospitals and in surgery on October 26. I was in hospital in a private room for five days. Not a single dollar changed hands -- between our provincial health care plan and my employee benefit plan (which covered the private room), there was no cost to me at all. Surely, I'm not the only person benefiting by our healthcare system.

Out west they feel that Ontario gets the bigger share of the pie. They don't 'hate' Ontario anymore than Ohio 'hates' New York State.

Imhornet's knowledge of Canada and Toronto, in particular, are limited and his views sound like someone who has been forced to leave his home state and has been unhappy since that time. I understand that. I lived in NJ just outside of NYC for many years and while I loved the NYC part of it, I wouldn't have wanted to make my permanent home in the US. Nothing against the US, it's just that I'm not an American, I'm a Canadian and I prefer that nationality.

Oh, and mm? Sorry, I misunderstood what you were trying to say. Got it now.

i did not mean that starbucks will completely die in the UK. There are some positives for the future of starbucks here...like the fact that coffee is growing in popularity among people younger than about 35-40.

however, i don't see huge growth over here like in the US. it's also my opinion that the current UK growth has overextended the company in the UK and market penetration has peaked and will decline. here's why:

-starbucks is far from penetrating itself into the fabric of life as it has in the US. among &quot;middle britain&quot; it is unknown and not coveted as it was by middle america when the company was at this stage in its US growth.

-i don't see flavoured/specialty coffees growing in popularity here as they have in the US. In the US, part of how people define themselves is by their regular starbucks order (a marketer's dream). here there is no such phenomenon. as with tea, people stick to the basic, old standbys. specialty flavours/variations are key to starbucks growth and ability to charge what they do.

-teenagers/children-in the US, this group flocked to starbucks to imitate adults (a marketer's dream). in uk starbucks is not cool among the average teenager.

-trading hours-perhaps london is an exception but most starbucks are closed by even the pre-dinner hours. therefore they are not seen as a place to go socially.

-people are getting more aware of the problems of drinking, pub culture and smoking so alternatives are needed. however, pubs are filling this need by becoming more woman-friendly, cleaner, smoke free, etc.

from a walk around london where starbucks is on every corner, it is easy to think that it is part of the fabric of life like in the US. however, this is not the case in my opinion.

- oh and as pointed out here in a recent post, british young people have much less disposable money. it's not so easy to blow &pound;2-3 on a coffee or much more for a coffee and cake. this is still seen as a treat, not an every day habit...even among trendy people.

Walkinaround, I live in Berkshire, in the British 'burbs. Again, my experience is that you are off the mark. At the suburban (non London, non-tourist) towns, the Starbucks I've been to are ALWAYS busy and in fact, are busier than their competitors. They're filled with people of all ages. And FWIW, the suburban Starbucks stay open later than their competitors (one of the competitors is near me and it's supposed to be open til 6 pm but by 5 pm they have chairs perched on top of the tables, are mopping the floor and making it clear they really don't want you around...that does NOT happen at the suburban Starbucks).
Kids have plenty of money to blow on cigarettes (at &pound;4 a pack!), fast food and the silly ringtone du jour, &pound;2 for a SB coffee is not blowing their budget.
Appealing to teenagers is not the only way to survive. The UK's population is aging just like the much of Europe and the U.S. and the over 30 crowd seem to be satisfied relaxing with a cappuccino and chatting with their friends at the suburban SBs that I've been to.
But hey, what do I know? I just live here ;-) Anyway, I admit to bias as a long time SB stockholder :D
By the way, walkinaround, where in the UK do you live? Someday perhaps there can be a non London UK Fodorite GTG.

I do not think London is becomoning &quot;Americanised&quot; but its just globalisation of companies and products that did not exist 20 years ago. transfer of information is fast efficient and accurate. Fodors is an example of how ealiy information can be obtained and how our knowlwdge of other places is tenfold these days...hey is america becomong more international in information and their views and what they have access too??

I don't think its Americanisation, I just think its a change in consumerism, from small independent stores into multinational companies who are able to prosper due to their economies of scale and access to the factories of China.

Every city's high street is becoming the same, that's why when people say they're going to London, Paris or Hong Kong to shop, I think why bother, virtually all the same shops are everywhere. The only thing different to me, is in the US where the prices for the same products due to Exchange rates, Factory outlets and generally cheaper products make a very noticeable difference.

The global brands are often misleading, people assume there are US but its often not the case, take this site, Fodors it's owned by a German media company.

Other brands mentioned in recent threads have been Pillsbury, H&auml;agen Dazs &amp; Burger King. Until very recently these were owned by Diageo, a UK company who decided to sell them to concentrate on the drinks market.

I think the next phase will see the Chinese taking over many of our well known brands but will that mean a Chinese looking High Street, I think not

Geordie

Geordie, along those lines, take a look at The Daily Show's (Comedy Central) video on China's emerging importance: &quot;Red Planet&quot;
(www.comedycentral.com click on shows, pick The Daily Show, then click on videos and scroll through--click on the &quot;headlines&quot; section for some great political satire videos).

btilke...i live in london but work all around the UK and rest of the world. right now i'm working in the UK on 2 sites, one in surrey and one in the midlands. both have starbucks nearby. in these offices, i have only once seen starbucks being consumed at work. the surrey office (large new office with well paid, well traveled professionals) was built with a trendy coffee bar in the lobby. this bar closed very soon after opening due to lack of customers willing to pay a premium for specialty coffee. the slick coffee bar atmosphere was met with indifference. it was soon replaced by a counter in the snack area which now serves only the basics-coffee, espresso, etc.

I simply do not see starbucks (or any coffee, esp high end) being consumed as part of the normal work day as you do in the US. People generally do not drink coffee in cars while commuting, nor do they consume expensive coffees while working. that leaves leisure...going out for a coffee is not part of the culture as is going down to the local. i accept that starbucks may stay open later than competition but that is still not late...and in most cases too early for an after meal coffee.

I don't know a lot about starbucks as a company but I do assume that their very high rents and expenses demand extremely high sales volumes and a high spend per customer.

i believe that the success of the company depends on the appeal of the lifestyle that starbucks sells as lifestyle is their main product. i think that their rise in the US is marketing genius. the pop image of a trendy, cosmopolitan young person up at the counter ordering their personal triple latte, sheeps milk, etc, etc was built from scratch by starbucks. this did not exist in popular culture before starbucks.

can this cultural feature be built in the UK? for me, it is clear that it does not exist today as it does in the US and perhaps someday it might. however, my opinion is that it will not.

i think that starbucks is a clever company so maybe they can replicate their success over here. with their penetration, it is clear that they are aiming for more than just a niche presence and i would not underestimate the challenges to making the leap from coveted specialty item to a business that is part of average people's everyday lives. planet hollywood, hard rock cafe, krisy kreme, etc failed to make this jump in the US market. with starbucks, it is not clear to me that they can build the coffee culture required to support a starbucks on every corner in middle britain.

Oh and we do not have a starbucks in Ireland (or at least the south as of yet) they keep threatening us to come over but it never happened!

If you think Starbucks will do no better than Planet Hollywood or Krispy Kreme, you don't understand their business model very well and underestimate the company's savvy and determination. They are profitable in the UK; they have over 300 outlets with more planned. That is not the picture of a failing, niche market enterprise. They don't have to be on EVERY corner to do well.
As long-time stockholders in Starbucks we heard the very same views about their potential in the U.S. East Coast that you hold about their future in the UK. We were urged to sell our stock. &quot;Not part of the culture&quot; &quot;just a trend&quot; &quot;not something people will pay for&quot; &quot;doesn't translate well&quot;. But somehow, it didn't quite turn out that way...
There were people who said Coca-Cola and Marlboro cigarettes would never make it in Europe either.

Coffee bars are nothing new in London.
They've been around since the 17th century. No doubt, when they were introduced people complained about London becoming Frenchified or Arabified.
Lloyd's of London started off as a coffee bar.
When I were a lad, I used to hang around so called espresso bars.
I can still remember the hissing of the coffee machines.

By the way, one thing I definitely DON'T understand about coffee in the UK is why every grocery chain sells a variety of ground coffee in the usual bags but it's extremely difficult to find coffee FILTERS. What's going on? Neither our local Tesco or Sainsbury's carries filters; only Waitrose.
One note: there are three new businesses going up within walking distance of our home. One is a remodeled and expanded grocery store under new ownership, another a remodeled and expansed petrol station, also under new ownership, and the other a store. The first two have big signs up announcing that will have coffee bars. Ah, the beauty of habit-forming substances that don't cause cancer.