<i>From a group of people who have "the god's honest truth" in a book, how can you accuse us of arrogance?

Do you not see the irony?</i>

No - well, to some of that group. But it's mostly they and yourself who imagines the nature and intent of that group (or that there IS one beyond a fairly vague label) and then toss everyone else into that group. Then get upset if caught in a generalization that speaks of atheists. Yes, I do see irony.

<<But what's the chances that most of what you see is cultural and necessary to most activities, and that the activity in question at the moment is the practice of religion is mostly coincidental?>>

I think what you are saying is

That which is worshiped is God
Hindus worship a God, Muslims worship a God
Therefore Hindus and Muslims have the one God.

Given all the whacky discrepancies between what the Hindus and Muslims say about this "one" God (including Hindus having thousands of them, I think we can safely say that we don't have any clear picture about what this god is about or what it does, or what it wants, or how it behaves and should stop pretending we do.

But only one of us thinks we know something we don't.>

No and that's the old canard religious folk bring up - I note your non-religious take because you have not seen any reason to believe or non-believe and that is where we differ.

I don't know something we don't know but I do know that due to the physical laws of the universe that have always held up to scientific scrutiny a God that would necessarily violate these laws just cannot exist.

Basically you are asking again the old canard - prove a negative - well that ain't possible anymore than you can prove that Santa Claus does not exist some place - just as much chance of Santa - defying the laws of the universe - existing as God and no I cannot prove that either does not exist.

<<JR And what makes you think Muslims and Hindus aren't ultimately praying to the same thing, just in their own way?>>

There is the old saying that we are all climbing the mountain to get to the top - and often we take different paths up...so, whether it's external salvation or spiritual enlightenment those who climb the religious proverbial mountain are seeking the same end but just taking different paths.

nanabee - When I was a little girl, we lived just down the street from our church and the parsonage. Sometimes I'd sit on his front porch steps and he would bring out banana popsicles. We fixed all of the world's problems during those chats.

Once I asked why there were three churches on our street, a UCC church, a Catholic church and a Presbyterian church. Why couldn't we just have one church?

Reverend Saylor's response? We're all climbing the same mountain, just taking different paths.

We're all climbing the same mountain, just taking different paths.>

the ultimate cop out as to why if there is a God why does he manifest him/her/itself in so many different ways to different cultures - if there is only one God why so many religions - well because there ain't no God - if there were he/she/d'it'd let us know that there is only Him/Her/It and no other ones - why would a God take so many different forms - like literally dozens and dozens of Hindu gods?

No you're all climbing the same mountain but you never will get to the top or if you do you will find nothing there - well many have already found something there - the ole something out of nothing nonsense.

Do you honestly think that the Southern Baptists, Mongolian Shamans and Rastafarians are climbing a common mountain?

Honestly, the more I speak to the religious the vaguer and vaguer they get, to the point at which their beliefs almost vanish into:

"I feel there is something spooky up there"

If that it all it is, I would subscribe to the "Great Indescribable Spookiness", which is probably just some mild anxiety disorder.

There, look, you've converted me.

that there are so so many gods in this world that millions of folks fervently believe it is very telling - and everyone believes that THEIR god is the right one - the only one that others are false gods or the work of Satan!

Very telling - I think it's the height of hubris to believe that your god is the only god and everyone else has it wrong.

Well they all have it wrong really.

Quite a lengthy thread. Let's realize that a) the right kind of religion is beneficial and b) religion has nothing to do with science. I am constantly amazed at the ignorance of people trying to mix the two. But there are other areas where people are also prejudiced. And hurtful. Back to the Edinburgh scene one hopes that travel is enlightening, opening up new areas of knowledge.

how sensible you are ozarksbill! :)

"Let's realize that a) the right kind of religion is beneficial"

Highly beneficial to some, no doubt.

Why can't religion or spiritual beliefs be viewed as an ethical approach to life in the same way philosophy can?

Let's realize that a) the right kind of religion is beneficial and b) religion has nothing to do with science>>

I'm with Jahouilh here - agree with b) but not sure about a). Christianity certainly wasn't beneficial to the south american peoples wiped out and enslaved by the conquistadors, for example.

<<Why can't religion or spiritual beliefs be viewed as an ethical approach to life in the same way philosophy can?>>

well of course they can, nanabee, but sadly, they often turn out to be an inethical approach to life, justified by reference to a religion that they mock, eg the catholic priests who have been using their positions to abuse the children they were supposed to care so much about.

No doubt religion can be beneficial to individuals and society - can be but often is not when religious beliefs are foisted on society in general and that has been the case most of the time from time immemorial.

If religion makes a person feel better about themselves and existence and perhaps gives false hopes of an afterlife - great for the individual. I envy that feeling! I wish there were a God - a good God - the God everyone purports to believe in IMO is not a good God or all the suffering in the world would not happen.

<,Why can't religion or spiritual beliefs be viewed as an ethical approach to life in the same way philosophy can?>>

Not sure what you mean by philosophy in this instance, if you mean natural philosophy, we call that science these days.

You are perfectly welcome to believe whatever you believe in the comfort of your own home.

You cannot teach what is essentially "made up stuff" in schools.

I see no problem in teaching ABOUT "made up stuff" in schools once the kids are old enough to make judgments themselves.

If you want to teach your biblical ethics, I take objection to much of it.

What are you asking for in fact?

Oh yes, I knew the worst case scenarios would surface when talking about religion, e.g., native peoples wiped out by conquistadors (disease was a big factor) and a few Catholic priests abusing children (can we ignore centuries of good works by countless priests?)

This is important: there is good religion and bad religion. But also let's get specific...just talking about "religion" makes no sense. The Judeo-Christian heritage has provided moral guidance for billions. Some may scoff at the Laws of Moses or teachings of Jesus but can anyone deny the impact of both over the ages? Please, don't bring up the Inquisition or Crusades but think instead of St. Francis and Mother Teresa and Bishop Tutu. And much in Islam provides wisdom and guidance for millions.

My word to the non-believers...just find something for yourselves that enlightens and inspires and promotes justice. Don't waste your breath on lambasting "religion." Or bother with shouting there is no God.

"Please, don't bring up the Inquisition or Crusades"

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?

Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum.

My word to the non-believers...just find something for yourselves that enlightens and inspires and promotes justice. Don't waste your breath on lambasting "religion." Or bother with shouting there is no God.>>

why aren't we allowed to bring up the inquisition, or abusive priests?

you seem to think that you're entitled to bring up the good stuff.

BTW we have found something that enlightens and promotes justice - Science and Humanism.

<i>just find something for yourselves that enlightens and inspires and promotes justice. </i>

We did - when we discovered that religion does none of those things

>>St. Francis and Mother Teresa and Bishop Tutu>>

I have no idea what St Francis ever did...Talk to birds?

Mother Theresa it would appear is a rather nasty piece of work who amassed a lot of wealth while denying those in her car the most basic of treatments. Painkillers, antibiotics etc.

Desmond Tutu indeed a great man, not your typical Christian

So if you are for a non literal interpretation of the bible, pro-Palestinian rights, anti big pharma, an opponent of the Vaticans stance on condoms, pro the ordination of gay priests who compares the US to apartheid South Africa...he's your guy...