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Do Europeans really speak many languages?

Do Europeans really speak many languages?

Old Jun 17th, 2002, 01:55 PM
  #21  
Art
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Also traveling in the US (and to some extent in Canada) is like visiting many countries. There are many people who travel a lot by visiting different states each year. While my son was growing up we traveled in the US, Mexico and Canada. It was much more expensive to fly to Europe, even though it was much cheaper to travel once you were there. Now it is cheaper to get there but much more expensive to travel once you are there. There is a lot to see in the US, some of which you'll find nowhere else in the world (and you can do it all in English). I was lucky enough to be sent to Germany in the service and stayed there after discharge. Learned German while I was there and attempt to learn a little of the language of whichever country that I visit. We are not encouraged to learn languages in school here and usually only have to take 2 years of a language in school. I would like the language courses to start in the first 6 grades (when it is much easier to learn) but until they do, most people will not become conversant in other languages. Also, as mentioned above, lack of use deteriorates your skills.
 
Old Jun 17th, 2002, 04:11 PM
  #22  
wondering
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Steve, I wonder if any studies have been done on the facility to learn a language and the age at which one first learns a second language. I believe it has been shown that young children learn a second language in a different part of their brain, and it is more "hard wired" if you will. My personal observation is that if someone has learned a second language very early (before age five), the path is paved for picking up additional languages. Perhaps it is that so many languages are connected, so the more you know, the more you know...Or, is it that, somehow, the brain has learned to pick up languages in a different way? The path is paved and it is easier?

My father grew up in NYC with dual languages (different at home and neighborhood - Hebrew and English) and picked up two additional languages (Yiddish and German) fluently, and two more (French and Spanish) enough to get by. Needless to say, the army used him on the front lines for translating during WWII.
 
Old Jun 17th, 2002, 06:36 PM
  #23  
top
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topping
 
Old Jun 17th, 2002, 07:13 PM
  #24  
clairobscur
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IMO, the reputation europeans have to speak many languages is greatly exagerated. In most european countries, studying at least two other languages (and sometimes more) during all the high school years (and sometimes also during primary school)is mandatory. So, most high school graduate europeans have studied several foreign languages for many years.

Nevertheless, having studied them doesn't mean you're actually able to speak them. Some people aren't interested and never achieved the level necessary to hold a conversation, and many others quickly forget everything they learnt since they never use these languages.

AFAIK, in western Europe, the countries where the most peole are able to speak a foreign language are scandinavian countries, then the Netherlands, then Germany, then France, then Italy and Spain (can't remember in which order), then Portugal and the UK. I'm quite surprised concerning Portugal, since I never had an issue finding a Portuguese speaking either french, english or spanish.

Also, of course, the quality of language teaching varies from country to country, and it has important consequences. The access to medias in english (movies subtitled or dubbed on TV, for instance) seems to play a large part in the ability of people to speak english, since they have a permanent exposure. Or perhaps the reverse is true. Movies are subtitled rather than dubbed in countries where people are already more likely to understand the language.


As for the important subjects not being taught because languages are, this isn't really an issue, since there are anyway important differences in the school hours from a country to another. So, students could have more language courses AND more maths AND more science in the country A than in the country B.

Anyway, languages seems a subject as important as sciences or history to me. Perhaps I'm biased since maths play a way too important part in high school here. I was specialized in sciences in high school, but honestly, I've been using foreign languages way more often than imaginary numbers during my life. If I had to lose a skill, and to pick up which one, I would certainly chose trigonometry rather than spanish...
 
Old Jun 18th, 2002, 12:45 AM
  #25  
elina
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WONDERING is wondering about the age when foreign languages "stick" to a child. True, it is before the age of five. That is why (at least here in Finland) people nowadays often put their children to a so-called "language bath kindergarten". There are at least Swedish, English, and French kindergartens (Must be German ones, too, but not in my neighbourhood). A three year old learns at a stunning speed when he spends his days in a foreign language enviroment. And no books needed! That way a child gets one language sort of "free". At school the first foreign language comes at the age of 9, but they are pushing it down to seven, because even a seven year old learns easier that a nine year old.

When I have compared my son´s and my US friends` childrens schooldays, my son´s days are hours longer. Time for languages is not taken from math and sciences, it comes from extra hours and less sports and music and arts. And that is a pity! But because there is a limited amount of hours in a day, it has to come from somewhere. A teenager really does not have free time during weekdays. Schooldays are 6-7 hours, often 8. And after that homework takes even 4 hours.`

Subtitling versus dubbing question: Everything is subtitled here because it would be way too expensive to hire actors for dubbing, when maximum audience would be 5 million people. And that would mean that every single Finn sits in front of a TV for a certain show.
 
Old Jun 18th, 2002, 01:08 AM
  #26  
jen
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In the Netherlands, language learning starts seriously at about age 12, but not to the exclusion of other subjects. Here's my daughter's junior high school subject list (other schools may differ slightly):
Dutch, English, French, German, Latin, Greek, geography, history, relgion, math, technical studies, biology, physics/chemistry, drawing, music & gym.
The classical languages may be dropped later in high school if she chooses for a scientific track.
 
Old Jun 18th, 2002, 02:54 AM
  #27  
mels
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All my children are bi-lingual as have an English mother and an Italian father. Plus they all learned French at school. One daughter speaks five languages fluently - English, Italian, French, German and Spanish (she now lives in Barcelona - but is having difficulty speaking it there as they reply in Catalano!! - which she hasn't learned yet!
 
Old Jun 18th, 2002, 05:49 AM
  #28  
Steve Mueller
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The European foreign language curricula that have been listed seem to support the notion that European second languages tend to consist of other European languages. There is a natural tendency to want to understand your neighbors, especially when they are so close.

Statistics concerning the number of people that are fluent in another language are heavily influenced by immigrants. With this in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if at least a quarter of Americans are fluent in a second language.

I still don't see how Dutch junior high school students can be expected to learn French, English, German, Greek and Latin. In another thread, we recently had a discussion about how much more history was required of European students.

In the US, we try to educate everyone - for better or worse. In theory at least, our goal is that 100% of our citizens obtain at least twelve years of schooling. I have oftened wondered if that utilitarian objective hasn't resulted in the adoption of mediocre standards.

My impression of European secondary education is that filtering of students by ability is a primary objective. Sjoerd and others can shed some light on this, but a common perception in the US is that most European school systems tend to route less accomplished students into vocational-type training earlier in life (by 15 or 16 years of age). If this is true, the remainder of the students would be more competitive and motivated and could handle four foreign languages, etc.
 
Old Jun 18th, 2002, 10:39 AM
  #29  
Sheila
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Steve

Is there somewhere that similar stats for the US to those unearthed by Sjoerd exist? I'd be interested to see them.

I'm not at school now(indeed I left to go to University in 1975), but in my first year of what you would call High School, I studied French; I added Latin in 2nd year and German in 3rd; I had my university entrance secured by the end of 5th year and picked up Gaelic from choice in 6th year. I then spent a couple of months working in Italy in the summer between school and University and took the Perth Library copy of "Teach yourself Italian" with me.

I am the prodcut of a selective school system which was abolished in my area when I was in 2nd year; thus my sister who is 2 years younger than me came through what we call comprehensive education- everyone whatever their academich standards was taught together.

I did 13 subjects in 1st and 2nd year (age 12-13). That was cut to 7 for the first set of major public exams (age 16)-English, French, German, Latin, History, Maths and Arithmetic; and 5 for the next set (I dropped the Latin and Arithmetic).

My niece, who goes to university this autumn to do bio-medical sciences, took 8 exams at 16 and 6 at 17; both sets included two languages other than English as well as Maths, Chemistry, Biology and Physics.

She, like her mother, is a product of a non-selective system.
 
Old Jun 18th, 2002, 11:22 AM
  #30  
wondering
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Where we live in the US, our children's high school day is 6 hours and we have a very short school year full of days off. Foreign language is not offered in the public schools until high school (though one can pay several hundred dollars and take it before school, starting in middle school). The State has just added a graduation requirement of 2 years of a foreign language in high school. Languages offered tend to be Spanish (the biggest by far), Japanese, French, and sometimes German.

In real life, about the only language taught in school that most children here will have the opportunity to speak, if they seek it out, is Spanish, as there are many Hispanics here. This makes motivation difficult.
 
Old Jun 18th, 2002, 11:37 AM
  #31  
elina
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No, filtering of students by ability is not a primary objective, not even secondary. It is not an objective at all. (I am talking about Finland.) I am still a product of filtering, but I am over 50 years old. The school system is comprehensive, and has been since early 1970´s if I remember right. And that means everybody gets the same 12 year basic education. If somebody wants, they can go to vocational schools after 9 years of comprehensive school, but hardly anybody does that. And by the time you have finished 9th grade, you already have had to study at least two foreign languages. So, nobody escapes those even if they wanted to. Usually minimum is three foreign languages.

There is a matriculation examination in six subjects at the end of 12th school year. That is an intensive 6 weeks period when your academic skills are tested. Some pass better, some not so well. But everybody has had the same education.

Also universities have entrance exams, and some people study for those for months. So, if you have neglected your studies at school, you still have a possibility for academic studies if you pass the entrance exams.

But at least my American friends children have very much free time. Given more homework and some extra hours at school every week they would learn foreign languages just like European kids do.

 
Old Jun 18th, 2002, 11:41 AM
  #32  
Steve Mueller
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I can try to verify these numbers when I get home tonight (I clip a lot of magazine and journal articles and file them away for future reference), but a few facts that I remember off the top of my head are -

1) Approximately 40 million Americans speak a language other than English at home

and

2) About 1 in 4 American high school students take at least some Spanish, and about one-tenth take at least some French.

I have also seen statistics indicating that high school students who study a foreign language are far more likely to attend college.
 
Old Jun 18th, 2002, 11:50 AM
  #33  
wondering
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Steve, It is not surprising that kids who study a foreign language are more likely to attend college, as many (if not most) colleges require a foreign language for admission. Let us not confuse correlation with causation!
 
Old Jun 18th, 2002, 11:52 AM
  #34  
Steve Mueller
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wondering, I am not implying causality.

On the other hand, most US universities do not require a foreign language for admission, although some do for graduation.
 
Old Jun 18th, 2002, 12:05 PM
  #35  
wondering
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Not so sure about that. Our state system does....Or at least I think they do. I know to graduate from high school, you have to have a language. And you can't get admitted to a state university without a high school diploma (or GED). So, I assumed it was a requirement for college. Maybe it is not, per se. Maybe applying from out of state you don't need one? (They'll probably gladly take anyone's money.)

No foreign language is required to drop out of high school, needless to say. And those drop-outs are not college bound, normally.
 
Old Jun 18th, 2002, 12:13 PM
  #36  
wondering
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Yep. Looked it up on the internet. Our state universities will be requiring two years of foreign language or its equivalency (based on a test) for admission starting in Fall 2005. (My daughter is a high school freshman and is in the first class that this requirement will affect, hence my interest in this!) Our state system is hardly one of the best, so I guessed others were at least as stringent.
 
Old Jun 18th, 2002, 01:52 PM
  #37  
Mr.
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Yes.
Oui.
Si.
Da.
Ya.
 
Old Jun 18th, 2002, 02:01 PM
  #38  
clairobscur
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Concerning the way students are "selected", here's how it works in France :

Children began junior high school (I hope it's the proper name) at 11

At 13, some of them are oriented towards apprenticeship. Usually those who fail miserably at school. Few students (some percents, I would guess) leave school at this point. The wide majority go on.

At 15 there are 3 possibilities :

-Regular high school, with several options possible ("series"). For instance, a student could pick the serie A7, literrature and arts, or C, maths and physics, or E, maths and technology, etc...It makes a big difference. For instance a student in serie C would be taught maths for 9 hours/week and physics for I don't know how many hours, while a student in the litterature and arts serie would be taught maths during perhaps 2 hours/week. There's a different high school diploma for each serie. Students who get their high school diploma can enter universities. A wild guess would be that perhaps 50% of the students follow this classical teaching.


-Technical High School. It works in the same way than the regular high school, except that less time is spent on general culture (sciences, litterature, etc..) and technical skills are studied.
There are also "series", for instance one could pick optics or accountancy, etc...There's also a high school diploma, and students who got it can choose to work, or to attend a "superior technical school", but also can enter university (though it's uncommon...but they can't be denied entrance). A wild guess would be that 30% of students follow this path.

-Professional school. General teaching is further reduced, and people are taught a manual job (say, plumber). They also work part of the time. They get a technical diploma in their field, but cant enter university with it. My wild guess would be that 20% of students follow this path.


Personnally, I find it's a fine system. It's diverse enough for everybody to find his place (well...of course, high school students NEVER know what they want to do), and less time is wasted on teaching skills the students aren't interested in or in waiting for the slowest students who will never get it right. Students who are interested in maths or language can spend their time on these skills, while students who are more interested in a technical field can begin their training in some job.

I'm not sure what is the minimal level of general culture provided to all students and how it compares with the equivalent in the US.

I must also add, like another poster did, that being a student in high school isn't like vacations at all, here. Students have long school hours, and a lot of homework. I would suspect that a lot of these students have more work hours than their parents (though they have more vacations, of course..)
 
Old Jun 18th, 2002, 02:07 PM
  #39  
clairobscur
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Also, since it's related to the original question:

French students learn a mandatory second language for 7 years, from 11 to 18. Around 2-3 hours/week. They begin a mandatory third language at 13, which they are supposed to learn for 5 years.
Students specialized in languages begin a fourth language at 15 (there are few of them..it's not a popular "serie").

Perhaps 25% of students begin to study latin at 14, too (and very few classical greek). But since it's only optionnal, a lot of them give up latin later.
 
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