"Decision to pay in foreign currency"
 

I've just received my first VISA bill from two weeks in Italy, and all hotels and restaurants except one charged me in Euros which VISA converts(and the issuer adds 1% or more to that). The bill for one hotel did not show the charge in Euros, and the amount in dollars was 5 cents more per Euro than the others. When I called my bank, I was informed that some vendors create their own rate and charge you that in dollars. Sure enough when I dug out that credit slip it showed the Euros, the higher conversion rate, and the imprint "Decision to pay in foreign currency is final." So I wasn't paying enough attention and may also have been confused by the fact that some bills still automatically show the Euro rate in lira. I don't know what I could have done about it, but when inquiring about hotel rates, at least ask if they use this practice. Without this practice I was paying 1.27 (and that included the 1%). This hotel was converting at 1.31(and I still had to pay for a foreign transaction). It can add up.

You were robbed, albeit legally because you signed the slip in that fashion. While it won't recover your money and it's not a ton of it, perhaps you might choose to give the name and location of the hotel here as a little recompense to the perpetrators. ;)

That does sound confusing as it showed both euro and USD amount. It's a good thing to warn people about what kind of things to look for in this. I guess it cost you about 5 pct of the bill, a lot for nothing. I hope it wasn't a lot of nights, anyway.

There have been reports about this in Ireland a lot, I guess Italy has heard about this and think it's a good way to cheat people legally. YOu know, it is really amazing what major businesses will go through in order to gain revenue, but in ways unrelated to them just doing a good business, and in a way to particularly steal money from a certain nationality. I don't understand how that thinking goes.

Read up on this forum doing a search on dynamic currency conversion...they have no right to do it unless they specifically give you a choice. What you could try is to use the quote I put on the board from the visa web site and write to your bank that you were not specifically asked if you wish to accept the dynamic currency conversion scam which is highly prevelent in Ireland and is now spreading like a cancer to Italy and other tourists spots.

In the future, and this goes to everybody here, if any merchant pulls this garbage on them, politely tell the merchant they had no right to institute a dynamic currency conversion purchase and that you insist, as is your right, to pay the bill in euro.

If you click on my name above, you will find a recent thread I participated in with a title something to the effect of resturants in Ireland charging in foreign currencies. In one of my posts there, you will find a quote from the visa web site.

What you might try is a very stern e-mail to the hotel with a copy of that quote and the statement the hotel did not give you the opportunity to pay the bill in euro and without your permission which is required on the terminal charged you in US dollars. Then tell them that if they don't credit the charge in US dollars and re-submit it in euro, you will contest the charge through visa and report their near criminal activity to the Italian tourist board.

I did this with the 2 Irish merchants who pulled this garbage on me in Ireland and in both cases, they credited my account in US dollars and re-submitted them in euro which saved me close to 5%.

Let us know how you make out.

This happened to me at Ristorante Riviera in Venice. They gave me the initial bill in Euros and when they gave me the VISA charge to sign, it had been converted to Dollars at about 5 cents higher per Euro than the exchange rate used on my most recent VISA statement.

The charge slip also included a statement that said "I agree NOT to be charged in Euros."

I refused to sign the VISA charge slip and insisted they make out the charge in Euros. They told me it was too much trouble to change and that they always bill their American customers in dollars as a "convenience". But I insisted on being charged in euros and told them I wouldn't sign the charge receipt.

So they finally gave me a credit for the bill made out in Dollars and gave me a new bill in Euros.

PaoloCast,

Do you mind sharing the name of the hotel where this happened?

Woody

A month ago we stayed at eight very wonderful Best WEstern hotels in Germany, Austria, N. Italy and ALL billed in euro except for ONE! IT was the Best Western Bolonga, outside Venice in the town of Mestre. It was a lovely hotel, VERY nice desk staff etc....but on checking out I asked TWICE to be billed euro, and they said yes.....BUT in reading over the bill later, they billed in AMerican dollars! It didn't amount to much more,......however the following night I called them back and they said they though it benefits the consumer to do it that way???...... I have also reported it to Best WEstern Cumstomer relations who were very nice also. ANyway , I would recommend the hotel highly,...just TRIPLE check on check out IF you want it billed in dollars.

I just got my VISA bill with the restaurant charge for Ristorante Riviera where they wanted to convert the charge to dollars. But I insisted on a bill in Euros.

As it turns out, the VISA charge was $6 LESS than what it would have been if I had agreed to let the restaurant bill me in dollars. And this is with my VISA adding a 1% fee.

Remember that visa now includes a 1% charge on all foreign transactions even if you let them scam you into allowing them to pull this dynamic currency conversion garbage.

Any english speakers out there who are not American with experience about this? I would be highly suspect of a bill in us$ since I am Canadian, but I suspect that some will try this September. Thanks all for the heads up.

I have never experienced this anywhere in Europe. I am traveling a lot. I am German and my Visa and Mastercard are from Germany. Nobody every dared to consider billing me in foreign currency!

No the situation is not particular to Americans...

Here is how this near criminal scam works...

The merchant swipes your credit card as normal in a credit card terminal...the terminal from the numbers recognizes the card is issued by a bank in Canada in your case. It will then ask the merchant if the customers wishes to accept the conversion (that means the merchant is supposed to ask the customer when he first gets the credit card if the customer wishes to be billed in his local currency). So in your case,using a highly inflated exchange rate, the terminal will compute a charge in CAD and then the merchant is asked if you wish to accept this conversion and here is where the criminal activity comes in...most merchants simply without asking push the button saying you accept the conversion...you then get the sales slip and it says you accept the conversion.

It is nearly criminal because visa regulations say you must be given a choice to pay the bill in local currency, in this case euro. Merchants claim that when you sign the sales slip you are agreeing. In a way that might be true but if you notice what they have pulled many lie.

I had one clerk tell me a couple of weeks ago the USD amount is just listed as a convenience. It was a downright lie. I overheard another clerk telling a customer who objected that they could re-do the charge in euro only on visa but not on mastercard. When the next customer came by and they pulled the same garbage, they claimed the exact opposite.

They are a bunch of thieves who keep pulling this and it will only stop when

1. The government agency in Ireland takes some action to require they follow the procedure mandated by the credit card customers i.e. before pressing the button on the terminal asking the customer if he agrees to be ripped off with a much higher conversion rate than the credit card company will provide. or

2. Requiring signs be posed clearing stating that at the specific request of a customer, they will transact the charge in the customer's currency at the rate and listing the rates they are using for USD, AUD, CAD, GBP, CHF.

It's easy folks if you know how to read and understand what is going on. To quote a famous American, just say NO NO NO NO NO to this scam. If the clerk reguses, insist on seeing the manager.

They can always void the charge in the terminal and then indicate the customer does not wish to be ripped off by this near criminal activity.

This has been on Fodor's constantly for the past year or so. I don't understand why people continue to fall for this and allow themselves to be ripped off this way. It is almost a given it will happen in Ireland and Italy seems to be joining this criminal activity now too.

Well logos if you are German and your credit cards were issued in Germany of course (I say with a smile) the establishments would not try to bill you in US dollars.

It is happening to travellers that are not from Europe and consequently their own country's currency is not the Euro.

The near criminal scam is not all that common yet in Germany...

Some US payment operators are beginning to push this on merchants in the US.

If you want to get an eye full, do a google or yahoo search on dynamic currency conversion where you will see what the payment organizers are telling merchants of the advantages to them of pulling this near criminal scam.

Of course, those travelling on expense accounts might appreciate knowing the amount they are being charged in their local currency. After all, they are not paying the bill anyway.

I have never experienced this in any (non Euro) foreign country, not even China or the U.S. :-) Its scary how people seem to be ripping off tourists, when they would never expect it. Thanks for the Info!

Thanks xyz.
So if a person travelling in Ireland, when presented with a bill, wrote 'bill in Euros please', before handing over the cc, they should minimise confrontation?

See icithecat...

Here's where the criminal part of this comes in. If a merchant says to you I will do you a favour and bill you in your currency before running the charge, okay that's your stupidity if you allow it after having read these threads.

What is troubling is when people do just as you do and the merchant ignores it and then lies and says things like visa requires we write the charge in your currency or once having done it tells you it is impossible to undo the charge (every credit card terminal in creation gives a merchant the right to void a transaction) that is troubling about this.

DCC can convert on the fly into a number of major currencies, including Canadian $, Pound Sterling, Yen, US$, Euro, Aus $, and the terminal is configured to recognise the card's billing currency instantly.
On the terminals I have seen, when DCC is being used, the terminal automatically shows the amount in local currency and converted currency. By pressing the green 'Enter' or 'Confirm' key, by default DCC is activated and the slip comes out in the card's billing currency. What they should do, and what you should insist, is to press the yellow or red 'Cancel' key, DCC is de-activated, and by then pressing the green key the slip is printed out in local currency only.
Many operators and sales staff don't know about this and tell you DCC can't be overridden - nonesense.

Alec..

It is your last sentence that is the crux of the criminality of this matter.

I refuse to believe merchants are not aware of the fact that DCC can be overriden and it is clearly their responsibility to explain this to the clerks. Evidently what is being told to the clerks is to lie and to try to discourage customers from bypassing this near criminal rip off.

It is interesting to note that when a shop in Killarney pulled this on me a couple of weeks ago, the clerk's lie was that there was no conversion being done but rather as a convenience they were showing an approximation of the US dollar amount.

When the bill came through in the inflated dollar rate, I immediately e mailed the merchant and within 15 minutes I got an apology and was told the matter would be attended to immediately. I asked the clerk be fired for lying to me; no mention was made of just what was done to this idiot.

If the merchant refuses or claims that they can't bill in their country's currency, would it be OK to cross out the US$ amount and write in the euro amount before signing? I had a situation once where a tip amount put into my total, not by my wishes, and I crossed out the amount and wrote in the actual total. I think I got billed in the amount I wrote in (was a while ago so memory is fuzzy).

nibblette..

Fortunately or unfortunately this is now 2005...rarely do the sales slips ever get to the bank. Everything is transmitted electronically. The merchant holds the slip in case of a dispute his or her bank may request it to resolve the dispute and at that point, you might have a chance in going through the whole dispute issue.

But what you write on these slips in this day and age is pretty irrelevent.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that xyz. If I had a copy of my signed receipt showing what amount I signed for -- and forwarded it to my credit card company if they had a different amount, I'd think they'd react favorably.
I once had a restaurant which transposed two figures when they billed me, and happily I had kept my receipt. When I faxed it to Citibank Mastercard, they immediately changed my charge.

Patrick...

I didn't think I disagreed with you...certainly that would come into play in a billing error dispute. The post indicated change the amount on the slip or cross out the conversion or whatever and my point was that in the short term that wouldn't help. It would probably help in a dispute.

Of course, if the merchant refuses to budge, you can always write on the slip dcc declined and while it probably wouldn't stop the merchant from submitting the charge into the decc system, it would almost surely be prima face evidence in a billing dispute with your cc company.

It is amazing how all things in life go in circles. I remember travelling with my parents in '67. Dad always had a wad travellers cheques in his back pocket.

Now it sounds like the cheque cashing fees may be less than the cc 'conversion fees'.

XYZ123

You must get your facts straight before you start posting salacious allegations. The activity is NOT “near” criminal, as you so indicate, rather it is a CONVENIENCE to customers on a short holiday.

This service was created for the infrequent and ignorant traveler such as yourself. People not used to seeing a higher amount in their native currency on their bill from what was charged in the destination currency often go into panic mode at the thought of being charged more than they should have, but with DCC the amount they sign for is the exact amount that will appear on their credit card statement.

VISA/MC/AMEX/Etc. sets the dynamic currency conversion rate; the business does NOT. Businesses frequently use this practice to assist customers unfamiliar with conversion rates and the dramatic daily fluctuations in the Forex market.

You are correct in that the businesses earn extra income with exchange rate commission. However, you are the final arbitrator of the preferred currency payment; you can accept or reject it. It is offered as a convenience. If any traveler accepts the fact that a business is “forcing” them to accept their native currency, then the fault lies with you, the traveler, not the business. If you don’t have the intellect to read what you’re signing, then I’m surprised you figured out your flight reservation, time, gate number, and seat assignment. After all, you wouldn’t simply sign a $50 bill for a $15 dinner. The same goes with the DCC: YOU MUST TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN ACTIONS.

Philip.

So. What makes everbody think that Philip works for a bank or CC Company.

Phillip...

You get your facts straight. The rate used in a dcc is not set by visa/mc or amex...it is set by the payment processor the merchant uses to process the charges. In some cases it is 5% higher than the actual amount used by mastercard or visa. To the best of my knowledge, amex does not allow this near criminal activity.

It was not created at a CONVENIENCE to customers as you say. It was created so merchants and the credit card processor (not visa or mc) could profit from the foreign currency exchange process.

You call me ignorant...what a joke. whenever I charge something in another country, I have a pretty good idea of what the exchange rate should be and what the charge will be and am never off by more than a few cents one way or the other.

I will give you actual amounts as I am looking at my credit card statement now. On a day the visa rate was $1.3011680672 including the 1% fee visa assess, the credit card processor of an Irish hotel charged me $1.366949153; if you're not a math major that's a difference of 5%..that is a fact from an actual credit card statement where an e mail got the merchant to reverse the shananigan that was pulled.

I will concede to you that the responsibility does lie with the person signing the credit card slip but the near criminal tag applies when the customer asks the charge be written up in euro and the merchant gives some lie as to just why it can't be done. You don't want to call that near criminal, what would you call it?

I can understand that somebody on an expense account who wants a quick reimbursment from his company might prefer charges be written up in his own currency so he can submit the expense report without waiting for the credit card statement. I don't worry about those people, they're not paying for anything anyway. Of course we all ultimately pay when the company has to jack up its prices to cover this.

DCC preys on lazy people and unintelligent people, that is true. So we are trying to educate them what it is all about. Go read the ads from credit card processors about dcc to merchants. They extol the virtues of the merchant sharing in the foreign exchange commissions at the expense of whom?

Nobody would object, at least I wouldn't, if the merchants followed the proper procedures namely asking me if I want to have the charge written up in my own currency at the specified rate. Of course sometimes they tell them things like "we'll write up the charge in your currency and save you the fees imposed by the credit card companies for foreign currency exchanges." But that is no longer true as visa now charges the 1% assessment on dcc transactions too.

So before you start calling people names, have the decency to get your facts straight.

xyz

XYZ123

Again, with the facts: first, my name is spelled Philip, not, as you type, Phillip; second, VISA/MC/Etc. DOES set the DCC rate, the processor is VISA/MC/Etc. (you’re confusing the card issuer, your bank[Chase, Citi, etc.], with VISA/MC/Etc.); third, DCC was created for CONVEINENCE with the ancillary goal of, yes, creating a profit for all involved; fourth, no one can lie to you if you know the facts of acceptance or denial of the DCC, so again, the fault lies with you even if you are “lied” to; fifth, VISA is NOT a card issuer as you continually assert; your VISA card is issued through a bank, e.g., Chase, Citi, and in your case, Providian. So, VISA charges a conversion fee as does the card issuer, your bank. VISA is the processor, they set the DCC rate (yes, they usually contract out the system handling, but the independent contractor’s fee is paid through their collected fees). There is NOT one fee as you continually assert. AMEX, being both the issuer and the holder, charges one fee only and is thus cheaper than any of the other major holders, i.e., VISA/MC. ACCEPT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY AS A TRAVELER. No one holds your hand anymore if you’re an adult armed with the simplest, if even feckless, education.

Philip.

Philip...

My apologies for spelling your name wrong...I can't look at your message the same time I type a response.

And you don't have to shout at me.

You are still so wrong about who sets the dcc rate. Your cc processor sets the rate which is not necessarily visa and/or mc.

Here is a quote from the visa web site:

Some merchants now offer to convert your bill into your home currency. This is called dynamic currency conversion and means the merchant—and not Visa—is converting the currency.

Note is says that means the merchant - and not Visa - is converting the currency.

In plain English....so you're wrong about who does the conversion at a rate it selects. It is done at the merchant level by whomever processes the merchant's credit cards which could be the merchant's bank or, an independent processing organization.

Without dcc the merchant submits the charge and it is converted by visa (or mc)...with dcc the charge is converted by the cc processor (yes it could be the merchant's bank such as the Bank of Ireland) and once it is converted it enters the international cc system as the converted amount. It is not converted by visa/mc or whatever.

As far as lies, what do you call it when a clerk says after printing a receipt on a terminal which specifically asks if the customer agrees to accept the converted amount, the merchant presses the yes button without asking the customer and then when the customer notices it on the sales slip, the customer is told that it can't be undone..what about the lie in the first place when the merchant assumes the customer will want to have this done...what about the lie when the customer is told this is simply an approximation to help give you an idea of what the charge will be...those are not lies to you? You see nothing wrong with that.

I don't know sir what your beef is with people who see through this systemm, who don't think somebody is doing them a favour by jacking up the exchange rate by 5% so they can, which is the selling point of dcc, share in the foreign exchange conversions.

Here is a quote from Bank Certified Merchant Services trying to push this scam in the US:

Merchants and NOVA partners have the opportunity to share in the revenue generated from conversion fees.

If after all this somebody signs the slip and says it is great, I know exactly how much this charge is going to be (incidentally he now has to add 1% to the charge) that's fine.

It still behooves those of us who understand the system to do whatever is possible to acquaint others with just what a rip off this is.

Now without shouting, please tell me where I am wrong.

xyz

Philip...

Not once in your tirade against my presumed lack of knowledge did you refer back to my post and the 5% difference between what visa charged me and what the dcc processor charged me...please don't insult anybody's inteligence by claiming it is normal currency fluctuations...currencies fluctuate by fractions of a cent each day (incidentally yes that could be a reason a charge converted by visa comes through at a slightly higher or lower amount than when you try to figure it out)..they never fluctuate by 5% in any 1 or 2 day period during which the charge goes through the international payments system.

When you travel, do you want to pay 5% more. Let's see on a 5 night stay at a hotel charging $150/might or $750 total, that's $15. Oh it's not such a big deal, fine. I would rather have the $15 in my pocket than to give it to somebody else when I don't have to.

Now those are facts, not opinions. So please explain to me why the dcc amount is 5% higher than the visa amount if visa does the dcc thing.

Mea culpa...

5% of $750 is $37.50, not $15 (which would be $15)....sorry for the error.