flpab

My landlord owned the building, she lived on the first and second floors and used the third for her family and short term rentals.

Whathello

Flpab
Not even legal... she can rent short time only about 4 months a year, and normally when she is away...

Brilliantsulk

Just out of curiosity, has anyone on this thread ever had the Paris Mayor's Office crack down on their illegal apartment rental and throw them into the street? Vacation ruined. It sounds so dramatic...

Does this happen?

kerouac

No tourists are thrown out in the street if they are already in the apartment. In fact, the city employees like to find people in the apartments because they have all sorts of questions they want to ask them.

The crackdown comes a couple weeks later when all of the evidence has been processed.

fuzzbucket

AirBnB clients have reported instances where the Landlord or his representative showed up, and informed the person staying there that he would have to leave immediately because he was not the person who had signed the yearly lease. This is most likely due to complaints from neighbors or the gardienne.

As has often been repeated by those of us who live and are working on this issue in Paris, the Mayor's Office has never evicted anyone who is staying in a vacation rental.

The agency, on the other hand, might leave you without a place to stay when an apartment is suddenly taken off the market at the Mayor's request.

There are periodic, unannounced "sweeps" where an agent has the legal right to identify him/herself and enter the apartment, ask questions of anyone living there, and file a report. If someone has the keys, the agent may enter even if nobody is there. Nobody has the right to touch your belongings, and nothing else happens to the person staying there.

The Mayor's task force is only interested in dealing with the property owner. The Mayor's Office requires the apartment to be taken off the market immediately, or the owner will face heavy fines for each day he continues to rent. In this case, the apartment you chose might be unavailable at the last minute, and neither the agency nor anyone else is responsible for helping you find a place to stay. Some agencies listing multiple properties might have an opening, but it might not be in your preferred neighborhood, nor have the amenities you requested and paid for.

There is one agency which tells the same story about "owning the building" for 3 separate buildings. However, because these addresses are private residential buildings, are not listed as hotels, and do not conform to the fire/sanitation/access codes that hotels do, they are not legal rentals. It does not matter if "the family" owns an entire building - the issue concerns the apartments and someone must live in each of them year-round.

In order for these "family-owned buildings" to be legal, the owners would have to pay commercial taxes on the property and construct a new residence which equals the size of their property somewhere in Paris, as well as meet other criteria. To date, this has not been done for any of the buildings this agency represents.

The buildings that are mentioned by this agency are definitely owned by investors - whether they are "a family" in the traditional sense or "a family of investors" makes no difference. Some of their apartments have been reported and are taken off the market periodically. When "the family" agrees to pay the fines, the apartment is listed again - until the next complaints occur.

fuzzbucket

AirBnB clients have reported instances where the Landlord or his representative showed up, and informed the person staying there that he would have to leave immediately because he was not the person who had signed the yearly lease. This is most likely due to complaints from neighbors or the gardienne.

As has often been repeated by those of us who live and are working on this issue in Paris, the Mayor's Office has never evicted anyone who is staying in a vacation rental.

The agency, on the other hand, might leave you without a place to stay when an apartment is suddenly taken off the market at the Mayor's request.

There are periodic, unannounced "sweeps" where an agent has the legal right to identify him/herself and enter the apartment, ask questions of anyone living there, and file a report. If someone has the keys, the agent may enter even if nobody is there. Nobody has the right to touch your belongings, and nothing else happens to the person staying there.

The Mayor's task force is only interested in dealing with the property owner. The Mayor's Office requires the apartment to be taken off the market immediately, or the owner will face heavy fines for each day he continues to rent. In this case, the apartment you chose might be unavailable at the last minute, and neither the agency nor anyone else is responsible for helping you find a place to stay. Some agencies listing multiple properties might have an opening, but it might not be in your preferred neighborhood, nor have the amenities you requested and paid for.

There is one agency which tells the same story about "owning the building" for 3 separate buildings. However, because these addresses are private residential buildings, are not listed as hotels, and do not conform to the fire/sanitation/access codes that hotels do, they are not legal rentals. It does not matter if "the family" owns an entire building - the issue concerns the apartments and someone must live in each of them year-round.

In order for these "family-owned buildings" to be legal, the owners would have to pay commercial taxes on the property and construct a new residence which equals the size of their property somewhere in Paris, as well as meet other criteria. To date, this has not been done for any of the buildings this agency represents.

The buildings that are mentioned by this agency are definitely owned by investors - whether they are "a family" in the traditional sense or "a family of investors" makes no difference. Some of their apartments have been reported and are taken off the market periodically. When "the family" agrees to pay the fines, the apartment is listed again - until the next complaints occur.

crefloors - if all you want is to bring food and drinks back to your hotel room, you can. Many hotels have mini-fridges - you can check for them in the amenities listed. You can ask to have the items removed, before or after you check in - many people do this for religious reasons, it's not uncommon. You can always bring food and drinks into your hotel room, as long as you are neat about it, and don't ask for plates, etc.

kerouac

In the latest development reported in today's news, the government is planning to extend obligatory collection of the tourist tax to every internet site with listings in Paris, as it has already obliged Airbnb to do. Once it has a complete data base for all of the properties, the apartments will be verified one by one to see if they are in conformity with the law. If they are, an official "rental permit" will be issued to places that qualify. Apparently this system has just been implemented in Berlin as well.

kelly324

To all who have replied---Thank you so very much for all the wonderful information here. Being someone who has to trudge to her job 40 hours a week and needs 6 months to a year to save enough to spend 5 nights & 6 days in Paris, I am totally behind, and completely understand the dilemma for Paris residents trying to find affordable housing in the city. As much as I want to just say "not my concern", I can't. I feel for the people who are working people like myself that can't afford to live close to where they work; and I certainly have NO desire to line the pockets of the Paris elite and/or unscrupulous property owners. So, it is with sadness, that I am going to wait to see how the situation develops, and plan to spend my vacation in Ireland.

I would also like to comment on "tourists wanting to 'live like a local/Parisian'" views expressed by the members who are actually in Paris. I come from South Florida, the Gold Coast actually, and I understand what it means to live in a tourist town--I grew up in one. And while, in my YOUTH, I derided the tourists for being rude, pushy, and not one of us, I grew out of that. As an adult, I realize that I live in a beautiful, wonderful place (I'm still in a tourist town, NE Florida beach town) that many people want to visit and while they cannot live here, they want to pretend they can. I understand not all tourists (especially Americans) are the most polite travelers, but for you lucky souls living in Paris, please give the rest of us a break - you live in the most beautiful city in the world, and we all wish we could be a part of that. Thank you.

jubilada

Kerouac, while that process seems tedious I am glad to hear it will be implemented, allowing visitors to know clearly what is legal and what is not, at the time of booking.

apersuader65

My understanding of the law was a little different. Anyone can rent their apartment in Paris, IF, and only IF, the apartment (not the owners) is properly registered and zoned as a rental. So speculating that stating that the illegal rentals are (insert description here) is just that - speculation. Any renter takes the risk that it is illegal until the City of Paris actually implements a plan that will register these apartments AND provides tourists the ability to check registry on-line (since the proliferation of the rentals is directly related to on-line rentals) and nothing will resolve itself properly without that resolution.

While I understand the issues that have made this issue rise to the forefront, I can't ignore the simple math - purportedly there are 200,000 illegal rental units in Paris. If those units are rented just a mere 20% of the time by the week, that is nearly 800 rentals per week. If you lose 40% of those rentals due to cost increases at hotels (hotel prices WILL go up when this hits) or current costs being too high, it will impact overall tourism. It may only be one or two percent at these numbers, but that is a significant euro figure no matter what.

The real question is whether your travel interruption insurance covers an illegal rental.

kerouac

<i> Anyone can rent their apartment in Paris, IF, and only IF, the apartment (not the owners) is properly registered and zoned as a rental.</i>

There is no registration and zoning of private apartments lived in by the owners at the present time. Up until now, it has basically been an honor system not to rent your own place for more than 4 months a year.

Registration and zoning is for apartments that are available for holiday rentals all year long.

Unfortunately, up until now it has been almost impossible for visitors to determine which is which.

crefloors

Thanks fuzzbucket. Once I know if there will be two of us or three of us, that will help. I think an apartment might be easier with three and then splitting the costs.

I'd like to be able to cook a little bit but like I say, have stayed in hotels, loved our hotel on Blvd. Raspail last trip, so hotels are fine. I was just exploring possible options, price and convenience. If an apartment is too much of a hassle with what's happening these days, it's certainly not a deal breaker by any means.

I certainly don't think I'll be living like a "native" LOL. My brother once said "I want to get down with the people". I couldn't believe it. It was really funny.

I'm not expecting to "get down with the people". LOL

Thanks for starting the thread kelly, I was about ready to start one of my own. Hope you find what you're looking for and have a great trip.

kelly324

Thanks crefloors, Paris may be off of the 2017 list, but it's not off a future list!

apersuader65

Kerouac, I think we're speaking the same story, just from other sides of the pond! An owner who lives in his apartment regularly, can only rent it out IF it is zoned to be a rental, and registered for taxation purposes. I do not believe the apartments transmute into a fully taxable property if the owner stays there AND rents it out. Now I fully understand getting the zoning and taxation status is extremely difficult, if not onerous. I've heard that in order to convert an apartment into a taxable vacation-style apartment, the owner must provide some other habitable apartment elsewhere as compensation for the loss of the space.

That would also explain the dilatory apartment owners who aren't registering.

A couple of things will likely happen when this enforcement is fully functioning. One, the hotels will go up in price with the additional demand. The ironic thing is that the apartment prices will likely go down with the increase supply when investors can no longer make money on these illegal apartments. The former scenario will likely be a permanent condition, the hotel prices won't go down later. The apartment cost will eventually go back up once the market simply adjusts and includes the new inventory, I'd bet it wouldn't take more than 3-5 years to fully include these additional units.

As I said earlier, the question is what this will do to the tourism market. If there are 200,000 potential rentals going away, that is alot of rooms that I suspect don't exist currently, and I wonder what impact this will have on the tourism euro. Ultimately, Paris is large enough to incorporate this change, and I suspect these concerns are why the City is slow-playing the problem. An overnight, city-wide enforcement would seriously disrupt the tourism industry, but a slow burn over a couple more years will not be noticed.

fuzzbucket

apersuader65 is thinking in American terms, not as the French government does.

The City instituted rent controls over one year ago. The legal rent paid for a yearly rental is now based on a certain amount per square meter, as well as slight variations according to its location in different arrondissements, where some property values are higher. Rental fees have been slightly lowered in most cases, so there is no reason to expect that landlords would want to reduce them further, since they would lose revenue.

However, people renting illegally far surpass the amount of money the City has decided is fair and equitable. For example, in the 4th arrondissement, a 35 sq meter apartment would rent legally for approximately 435 EU/wk. An equivalent vacation rental listed on the internet typically rents for appproximately 1000 EU/wk. So you can see that people who rent illegally would not have any interest in lowering their prices, and if forced to, would rather sell the apartment rather than making it available to Parisians who need to live and work in the city.

In major studies conducted in the most popular tourist destinations, there has been no evidence that hotel prices will rise - in fact, just the opposite is true. If you have not checked extensively for hotel rooms, you might not have noticed how many are currently available, and how many feature special prices to draw clients. It is true that hotels will enjoy more business when more illegal rentals are removed from the market, though, so it might be wise to book farther ahead than usual. Also, if you haven't been to Paris lately, you might not have noticed how many new hotels are being built or existing buildings re-purposed as boutique hotels to accommodate the enormous influx of visitors - which is expected to continue.

An owner who lives full-time in his apartment in Paris is allowed to rent for the period of his normal vacation time, which must not exceed 4 months. If the owner wishes to share his property for profit on a nightly or weekly basis, the other residents in the building must agree to allow the owner to operate what would essentially be a B&B, which is considered a commercial operation, is not usually permitted under the building's regulations and must also be registered and inspected by the City. The owner is obliged to report all revenue and pay the appropriate taxes, whether renting during his vacation time or operating a City-licensed B&B.

The reason that property owners can't or won't comply with the regulations for a legal rental is because they involve high construction costs, a paper trail of permits and taxes that many would like to avoid, and an increase from the personal level of taxes paid currently to the much more onerous burden of commercial taxes. For many property owners, paying a 50,000 EU fine once or twice a year is far preferable.

fuzzbucket

crefloors - there are some nice, legal apart'hotels in Paris.
Hotel Residence Henri IV in the Latin Quarter is a nice one.
Citadines is a cut above Adagio, but both have what you need, and also many locations and price points, depending on neighborhood.

How much cooking do you think you'll do in a week? If all you want is coffee, just ask the hotel if they can provide what you need, or choose a hotel with breakfast included. Or, just bring a travel pot. If you buy prepared food from bakeries, "traiteurs" and some grocery stores, it will be heated up for you, if you ask. Most people think they'll use the kitchen a whole lot, but really overestimate this. As I mentioned, a fridge is easy.

And most people would agree that "getting down with the locals" is best done outside of your hotel room, since none of us will likely be staying with you!

crefloors

I know the "gettig down with the locals" thing. I thought I'd die laughing. Thanks for the suggestions and I am going to check them out and bookmark and see how things go.

My girl friend and I....just thinking how funny it is when one is 70 and still saying girl friend.....anyway, got take away a couple of nights when we were totally exhausted and all we wanted to do was hit the room and put our feet up. There was a little Chinese take away place around the corner from the hotel. Like I say, I'm not fussy.

crefloors

Oh, buy the way, I'm looking at 10 - 14 days.

flpab

I am renting and will continue to rent. I love apartments, space to move around and like cooking my own food for breakfast and sometimes dinner. Nothing about living like a Parisian. I love having a balcony, frig, washing machine because I pack light and a nice neighborhood. My landlord said she was legal. She probably rents out less than four months a year in total. Anyway, not real worried about it and seems thousands of others are not since it is hard to find an apartment on short notice. I also used credit card and not cash, buy travel insurance for apartment so am covered. I have rented in Paris through flipkey and paid through paypal for deposit and rest in cash but she was booked so used this other agency. I don't like AirB&B because of communication issues.

kerouac on Apr 25, 16 at 1:36am
No tourists are thrown out in the street if they are already in the apartment. In fact, the city employees like to find people in the apartments because they have all sorts of questions they want to ask them.

I came in through a coded door and then another door to my apartment. Not opening the door.

fuzzbucket

The Mayor's agents don't use codes to open security doors. They are already equipped with the magnetic keys that the Post Office employees use to enter all the buildings in Paris.

If the gardienne has the keys to your apartment, she will be obliged to let the agents inside. Guess you'll just have to push a heavy chair in front of your door, if you want to avoid speaking to anyone.