Costs for Russia for budget to moderate travelers & lots of other questions--can you advise?
 

We are experienced independent European (both Easter and Western)travelers with many trips under our belts. I've given up on Europe for a while because of the state of the dollar. But we've always wanted to go to Russia and now the timing might be right. We are thinking of traveling this spring with my son and his Russian speaking wife who is from Lithuania. She has also been to Russia several times in the past, so we've got one huge advantage there.

I'd like some info about costs. Her father is in Russia much of the year on business and has many friends there. She asked him about prices, and he told her that Moscow is horribly, horribly expensive, with a 3* hotel running about $500 a night and restaurant meals comparably expensive. Is this true? If these Moscow costs are for real, that would probably stop us from visiting there.

He told her that St. Petersburg is less expensive. Another question. We typically rent apartments because they are more our style, they usually are more affordable, and we like being able to eat in at times. Is this a good idea for St. Petersburg?

Her father also told her that as Americans (Westerners) we probably would not be safe on our own outside of the major cities. We have never, ever gone on a group tour and feel that we'd be fine on our own, with her as our interpreter, in St. Petersburg. But, we would have more time than they do and would probably want to see some more of Russia. Typically we prefer smaller, more intimate places in the countryside to the large cities. But, his advice makes it sound as though this might not be a good idea. Do you have any thoughts? I know many people do the cruise between St. Petersburg and Moscow, but we wouldn't want to sign up for something that included a St. Petersburg segment. Plus, we are really, really, really leery of group tours and just don't think they are for us. I'd appreciate any thoughts. Thank you.

My daughter's friend, age 16 and non-Russian, went to St. Petersburg with another of their friends, also age 16 but Russian-speaking, and the latter girl's parents. The girl's parents let the two teenagers go around by themselves much of the time. So that does not prove anything about safety, but is just anecdotal evidence that suggests your plan should be fine.

I have also read that about Russian hotel prices, but perfectly fine hostels seem to be in line with standard European prices. I don't know about apartments.

Less expensive properties lie outside the center, this could be a way to save money and as the metro is very inexpensive and efficient plus the bonus of each station itelf being of interest. Example of these are the Sovietskaya, Cosmos & Ukrainia. The Leningradskaya Hotel is soon to become a Hilton next spring so might be some offers there.

I would not recommend staying outside the city as it takes a long time to get to the center and the small intimate properties do not exist. I would not recommend an apartment unless it has security and I don't think there is much cost saving there.

In St Petersburg, there is the Park Inn hotel, about 10-15mins from a metro.

Eating can be inexpensive if you go to the places where locals eat eg Shesh Besh, Moo Moo, Yolki Palki. Even better restaurants eg U Pirosmani and Noah's Ark are not that expensive esp if you stick to Georgian or Armenian wine.

Not sure why anyone would want to go to any places outside the main cities or tourist areas in the country, those towns are not always pretty.

You don't have to take a tour group, you can travel easily independently but if you need a guide eg at the Kremlin, there are plenty waiting outside. You can also get a driver + car to take you out to other places.

I can add some info about St.Petersburg:
Accommodation. Renting a private aoartement is VERY good idea – looking at many web-sites advertising apartements for rent in St.Pete you will see - this is much cheaper than any hotel. Such web-sites as http://www.w-o-n.ru/ or http://www.dailyexpress.ru/st-peters...admiralty1.htm or http://eng.arent.spb.ru/spisok-kvartir/ or many others (just put ‘apartments for rent st. petersburg, Russia on Google) can help you. Usually the company that gives you an apartment can help with Visa Support and registration in Russia.
Safety. I am sure using your common sense you are mostly safe in Russia. Don’t forget about pickpocketers, don’t walk along very dark streets…that’s it. Like in NY or in Rome or all around the world.
Tours. I am absolutely sure you don’t need any group tour. I would advise you to hire a private guide for one or two days. For instance for the city orientation tour on you first day – to learn about the city, to get oriented, to feel more comfortable and for the tour to suburban palaces – they are usually crowded in it is quite difficult to go inside not having a professional help.
Countryside. If you prefer small towns you will like Novgorod – beautiful old town located in between Moscow and St.Pete. I suggest you to spend one night there on the way – lovely, peaceful, beautiful place known as museum on the open air.
Food. In St.Pete we have restaurants of all rates – from the very reasonable to very expensive. Look at the web-site www.restoran.ru – it has much of useful information about Moscow and St.Pete restaurants with pictures, menu, costs and so on…Choose the language by clicking the English flag.

So, I am sure coming to Russia is good idea. You will not be disappointed.


Enjoy your trip!

Thanks for the help and the information. I'm going to start looking into some of the suggestions.

We work with many travelers to Russia, and Moscow is by far the most expensive city in the world for hotels, but I haven't seen 3* properties at $500+ per night except during very busy weeks. There are ways of working with a knowledgeable travel agent who knows Russia which can radically reduce the cost.

Note on hotels: The Ukrainia closed for renovation earlier this year, and the Leningradskaya closed about two years ago (and should re-open by the end of this year as a Hilton).

I actually find that Americans we work with feel safer outside of big cities, IF they are with a Russian speaker; if they are not, then the language barrier is huge and makes people feel vulnerable (with various degrees of validity).

www.hrs.com shows 3-star-hotels in Moscow starting at 100 Euros per night.

If you book with a travel agent you should be able to get a much less expensive rate.

If someone of your party speaks Russian you will get much better rates for taxis, entrance fees, restaurants etc. Russians always try to rip-off tourists, esp. American tourists.

Thanks again for all the follow-ups. So, if we will not be able to have a Russian speaker with us for the entire trip (they'll have less time than we will) we should probably skip the more rural areas unless we would hook up with a small tour group?

Would we also be able to find a realistically priced apartment in Moscow? I should also note that we do not need a 3* hotel; this was just the example that was given to us. Actually we typically prefer smaller, inexpensive, family-run, more intimate hotels than large chains where everything is pretty much the same the world over.

You might want to buy your airline tickets as soon as possible.

http://www.kommersant.com/p827246/airfare_fuel_prices/

The amount of time spent getting in and out of Moscow from the rural areas would be great as the traffic is usually bad. However some suburbs of Moscow are very interesting to visit and there are some open spaces/estates within Moscow that give the feeling of being in the country.(I'm defining Moscow as being within the MKAD ring road however Moscow region covers a large area)

As for apartments, a western style renovated apartment that has security of it's own could be OK. The smaller intimate family run hotel is not common in Russia yet, they like the 5 star hotels.

Check out this website, which I stumbled upon recently ... I've never used it and don't know the people, but sounds like there are some good leads for budget accommodation in Moscow and St Petersburg.
http://www.cheap-moscow.com/homestay.htm

>>>Actually we typically prefer smaller, inexpensive, family-run, more intimate hotels<<<

I am afraid it will be hard to find such hotels in Russia. Russia used to be a communist country and it has still not developed a market economy where families run businesses. It still is a world which is very different from the Western world.

You have these options (I have personally experienced them all):

- Homestay. Families offer to stay in their apartments in order to make money. But expect circumstances which are very different from everything you know.

- Hotels for Russians. These hotels are more like guesthouses or hostels, usually concrete buildings with very limited services. Do not expect hygienical standards like at home. Do not expect warm water in the showers. Do not expect proper heating in winter. Do not expect anyone in the house who speaks any other language than Russian. (Believe me, I have stayed in such hotels and I know of what I speak.)

- International hotels. These hotels are increasingly like hotels anywhere else on the world - with proper rates.

Traveler 1959--

Thanks for elucidating the lodging options for me. Now I understand what my daughter-in-law was talking about when she said that she and her family had stayed with family friends in Russia and that all of us could probably stay there part of the time too. But, she had a difficult time describing the apartment and said "simple" and "basic" were inadequate terms becasue they over-inflated what the apartment actually was. So, this may be the type of place where one would do a homestay.

We don't need luxury or solicitousness on the part of the staff by any means, but perhaps we might just end up in the pricier western style hotels.

mlaffitte--

Interesting link set up by what seems to be a rather interesting individual. Thanks a lot.

Here are some apartments we researched for an earlier planned spring 2007 trip - make sure you cross check the addresses with google maps or something. Some are VERY well located - others are not.

http://www.waytorussia.net/Travel/Apartments.html

Interestingly, we gave up (for now) on going to Russia (from the USA) for a while because of the state of the dollar and the fact that Moscow is the most expensive city in the world, we ended up going to Spain this year instead. Our 11 days in Spain total cost was about half of what we researched our 11 day trip to Russia would have been.

Best of luck. We may end there in 2008 ourselves.

"but perhaps we might just end up in the pricier western style hotels."

Sovietsky Hotel in Moscow is an old Russian style hotel which is renovated and not too expensive.

http://www.sovietsky.ru/

I would second the recommendation to visit Novgorod - great open-air museum, interesting Kremlin with a good museum, very quiet country town - and also suggest a tour of some of the "Golden Ring" towns around Moscow. Getting out into the countryside was a whole different experience than staying in the big cities - and I enjoyed it more! I visited Novgorod on my own (with train tickets and hotel arranged through an agency), but I had a car and driver for the Golden Ring.

Maybe I didn't know enough to worry about being on my own - I shared a compartment with a policeman on the train from Novgorod to Moscow, and he warned me about being out at night on my own, but I never felt unsafe.

Be careful with homestays! I think all of mine had sleeper sofas rather than beds, and nowhere to keep clothes. Also, most of the people running them were just interested in it as a business proposition, not talking with me - assuming they could speak English at all.

Sovietsky Hotel in Moscow looks lovely, but it still ends up at $300 a night. I'd prefer something about half that rate. Maybe I am being totally unrealistic.

julies,

why don't you try www.hrs.com?

You didn't specify the dates of your trip, but when I enter dummy dates they display decent hotels starting from 100 Euros.

And travel agencies here in Germany offer trips to Moscow which are dirt cheap, much cheaper than independently booked trips. Ask your TA.

(The reason is: Only businesspeople book independently, and the Russian know they can rip-off the business people, because the firm pays. Tourists would book through TA.)

Better rates can be obtained thru travel agents or tour operators who specialize in Russia. I would advise against going too cheap as it could spoil the experience and there is the issue of security to consider. Other inexpensive hotels could be the ones out at Izmailovo, Delta-Gamma but sure to get a renovated room. Or the Cosmos. Apart from that, many of the former Intourist hotels are closed, demolished or being renovated.

Novgorod is a beautiful old Russian city and well worth a visit. I have stayed at the Beresta Palace but that was a few years ago and don't know if it is still a nice place to stay.

Julies:

Having been to the USSR during the stark Cold War days, I'm looking forward to a possible visit to the new/old Russia and Ukraine in '08.

But I would strongly suggest to you that the country towns around Moscow are worth seeing, with a proper driver...see Suzdal at the very least..Yaroslavl, too. We enjoyed Novgorod, also. Very colorful, welcoming village feeling to Suzdal.

Cosmos Hotel (Moscow)was a behemoth of a dump in the 80's...wouldn't suggest it unless there has been major renovation. The in-charge "floor lady" called me an ass/donkey in Russian each time I passed her post as I ran the corridor...too damn cold outside.
I just laughed and called her drug moi (my dear one) each time...

Loved the old Astoria in Leningrad (St. Pete)...don't know what it is now, but I'm sure the rates are stratospheric. Also stayed at the relatively new (in the 80's) Pribaltskaya in St. Pete...a bit out of town, on the shores of the Baltic...quite nioce then..probably in the 4-500 range now.

I have some pre-digital, old, scanned pix of Suzdal if you're interested I'll send them to you..just write so I'll know where to e-mail.

Stu Tower
L.A. [email protected]

julies - you can see my (unedited) pix of Novgorod and the Golden Ring towns I visited at kwilhelm.smugmug.com/Travel/287618.

stu - if you're headed to Ukraine you might be interested in my (edited) pix from last year at kwilhelm.smugmug.com/Travel/264391

Great photos. I was amazed in some ways some of the ones from Novgorod made me think of our visit to Lithuania and some of the dark brown wooden churches reminded me of churches we sawy in the Maramures area of Romania. The Golden Ring looks fascinating. Kathy, do you remember about how much a car and driver cost? I am going to really have to start adding up al the numbers and the possible length of a stay we'd have.

Odin--Your comments about tours and agenciesdo make sense. I'll also have to consider using some sort of an agency, something I typically don't do except when it it a really, really different part of the world to me. It might make sense in this situation.

Thanks to all.

The Pribaltiskaya St Petersburg is now called Park Inn and I think it's a good choice, although a little far from the nearest metro.

julies - glad you liked the pix!. My Golden Ring trip was part of a package - train tickets for St. P. to Beijing, accommodation, and several side trips, and I don't remember how much that one piece added. Plus, my impression is that prices have risen dramatically.

I booked with Passport Travel (www.travelcentre.com.au) and while the Australian office was fine, their ground agent in Western Russia, G & R International, was definitely not. (Some of the gory details, plus my diatribe about homestays, at www.wilhelmswords.com/rtw2004 - Rainy Russia.)

I wouldn't use Passport Travel for Russia unless they've changed their ground agent. Plus, I checked their web site, and their current GR one night trip, which only goes to Suzdal, is "US$386 per person based upon twin share and US$763 for one person". I was a single and I am quite sure I didn't pay that much!!! I would see whether Russia Experience is offering anything beyond train trips, and check the Russia "sticky" at Lonely Planet's Thorntree for other suggestions.

BTW, julies, aren't you the poster who was unhappy with Vietnam? While Russia isn't Vietnam, at the budget level it isn't Western Europe either. There is very real poverty among the elderly, and, I suspect, in the countryside, and the infrastructure isn't in great shape.

thursdaysd--

Yes I am the poster who caused the great Vietnam upheaval. But, no I am not someone who was unhappy with our trip to Vietnam. I just said we did a very, very, very off-the-beaten path and strenuous trip that was physically and emotionally exhausting. There we hiked in and did homestays in very remote tribal villages in the north after we did a bicycle trip to the remote reaches of the Mekong Delta. I think people who interpreted my comments as being unhappy with the whole experience were those who typically stay in deluxe accomodations and who couldn't figure out how anyone could possibly not enjoy the deluxe services at bargain rates that Vietnam can offer.

My guess is the poverty in Russia might be more comparable to what we saw in certain areas of Romania and in some of the smaller eastern Czech towns and in places in Lithuania. We tend to prefer cultural immersion and seeing the real country versus being pampered in western-style manner, so I wouldn't worry at all about this aspect of a trip to Russia. When I mentioned the fact that my daughter-in-law told me about a very, very simple place that we could possibly stay in Russia with family friends of hers, my husband commented that if it even has a toilet it has much better facilities than some places we've stayed.

We have recently come back from St Petersburg and I can provide you with some info about this city
As for hotels, we stayed in the Hermitage mini hotel, the price is around 100 euros per night( though I think it will be more expensive during the summer season)It's a small, more intimate hotel with a very pleasant and helpful staff. Perfect location( www.ermitage.spb.ru)
Before I found this hotel, I came across a website of Comfort hotel and Herzen House( I think they are located in the same building) The prices are even less expensive but they were already booked
As for the restaurants and cafes, I did like very much small cosy cafes nearby our hotel- Stolle( it's a wonderful pie cafe)it was around $10 per person to have lunch. There is also a nice place, called Pushka Inn,I had the best Borsh and Beefstroganof there

Thanks for the latest piece of advice. I'll follow up on it.

My husband and I just returned from Russia. Our way of dealing with the high cost of hotels was to stay in an apartment.
Our recommendation for Moscow is-Moscvow Rick—
The apt. was terrific
Perfect location, near restaurants,grocery store, one Metro stop from the Kremlin. Rick runs a thoroughly professional operation—studio was well equipped, full kitchen, computer w/hi-speed internet, secure building. Reliable airport pickup and drop-off. Found him on the internet. Don't want to sound like an advertisement, but I went through a lot of searching to find places to stay in Moscow and St. Petersburg and wanted to share my discovery with others
It is past late spring, but hope this information will help future travelers.

Thursdaysd:


Excellent pix..thank you. I have some pix of most regions of Romania where I've visited many times since 1979.

My roots are in the vicinity of Kiev which I understand is quite a beautiful city these days. I could not get permission to visit the two small towns in Kiev Gibernia (province) during USSR days..but should have no trouble now, especially with Ukraine's Independence.

A doctor friend of mine and I caused quite a stir in Moscow back in '85 when we asked a traffic officer directions for KGB headquarters..within minutes, two military officers stopped us at the front door of KGB headquarters...after 15 minutes of uncomfortable quesioning and detention, we were allowed to continue on. That's not the full story, but you get the pic.

stu t. (if you'd like to peruse my Romanian pics and some old scanned photos of 1980's USSR, just write if you wish) [email protected]

Can anyone recommend some decently priced, good food (not haute cuisine) resturants easily found near major attractions (palaces, museums, cathedrals, etc) in Moscow and St. Petersburg?

julieS

did you ever get to Russia????
We did in October '08..and had a great experience...on our own for two weeks in Belarus (3rd world) and in Kiev..but on a Viking river trip from Moscow to St. Pete which was superb...and we normally eschew group trips of any kind.

Stu T.