Confused by Tube rates
 

I am looking at the London transport site and am just getting more and more confused on rates for Tube travel. Specifically I am looking at this page, which seems to tell me that a single journey in the heart of London costs 3 pounds?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...006.pdf#page=8

Here is the non-PDF page:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick.../tubedlr.shtml

Yet in my Fodors London 2006 book I see I can buy a Carnet of 10 tickets for less than 12 pounds...something doesn't sound right here.

Then there is the TravelCard. I can find a US website that will sell me a 3 day peak or off peak card for less than 15 pounds, but it doesn't define what peak and off peak are.

I just want to know how much a single Tube ticket for central London is and if there is some multi-day option that we can use. We rise early so waiting until after 9:00 a.m. isn't an option as far as a multi day ticket.

Indeed, carnets are no longer available.

Indeed single cash fares in central London are now £3...you wouldn't want to buy one.

You can get a 7 day zone 1 & 2 pass for £22.20...no 0930 restriction. If you are traveling 5 days or more, this is what you would get. Very inexpensive extension fares to Heathrow if you are tubing in.

With an oyster card, the one way tube fare in central London, if you don't get a 1 week card (which will be issued on an oyster card anyway) would be only £1.50...the oyster card unless you are buying a 7 day pass requires a refundable £3 deposit...travel cards for 1 day are available but you're much betterusing a prepaid oyster card...there is absolutely no need whatsoever to buy any London transport pass before arrival in London...you get the same rate anyway.

Read up about oyster cards and if you have any questions we can go from there...basically if you're there for less than 5 days, you would use a prepaid oyster account...you put money on it and as you go, the proper fares are deducted...however when you reach a cap which is 50p less than the cost of the correspondong one day paper travelcard that is it for the day...this give syou complete flexibility.

Look at it this way...if you were taking a single round trip (called a return) in central London simply to go to the theatre, it would cost you £6; obviously you would want a 1 day travel card instead for the single return (£4.90) as long as it is used after 0930 on a weekday...but with an oyster card the same round trip would be only £3...now if you take 2 round trips with the one day travel card it would cost the £4.90...with oyster it would be £4.40 because that is the cap...if you take trips before 0930 you will be charged individually if you don't have a 7 day pass until you reach the cap for a peak one day travel card less 50p...you can check what that is...

In almost every case, the best way to go is with an oyster card...besides which it saves 2 or 3 seconds to enter the system (I am sure that is a major issue as it is far easier to touch the yellow card reader than to insert the paper ticket and wait for it to return to you!)....

Like I say, I am almost sure that in most any situation you describe, the best way to go is with oyster.

1) Fodors guidebook is out of date. The book of 10 tickets isn't sold anymore. The 2006 guidebook will have been written a year ago.

2) off peak is after 9:30am on weekdays, all day weekends & public holidays.

3) £3 sounds about right - Ken is trying to encourage folk to use Oyster cards (do a search, there's several threads on it)

4) To save money get a BUS only travelcard at £13.50 for a week's travel. saves all that nasty travelling in holes in the ground & you find out where things really are.

"Yet in my Fodors London 2006 book I see I can buy a Carnet of 10 tickets for less than 12 pounds" - are you sure you didn't turn the pages, ending up in the Paris chapters? That's where you get a carnet - it's a French word and means "booklet" and indeed you get Paris Métro tickets in "Carnets" at reduced rates, but that is not a London thang.

WK

These guide books are almost always sadly out of date and rarely updated...let me repeat the carnet (10 single tickets for zone 1) is no longer available period...it was available before this year.

And absolutely the one way cash fare on the tube is £3....use oyster...read up about it and if you have any specific questions besides my excellent post above, throw it out and we'll respond.

I understand your pain. I've actually ordered Travelcards over the internet fopr advance delivery since I will be arriving in London by rail from Norfolk and want to use them immediately but that's obviously a personal decision.

My one and only hesitation about the bus pass is the CONGESTION issue in London. frankly, I'd much be traveling throuhg a "smally hole" than be stuck in a "stinking bus" above ground...again a pesonal decision.

BTW just to follow up on AlanRoy...

You can use oyster on the buses...the cash bus fare on a London bus now is £1.50...with oyster fares are 80p but between 0700 and 0900 on weekdays the bus fares increase to £1 on oyster but just as with travel that involes the tube, oyster bus fares will cap at a rate 50p below the cost of a one day bus pass so once your outlay on oyster for a day reaches £3 if you are only using the buses, that's it...you have in effect a 1 day bus pass...but let's say something unforseen happens and you have to use the tube for something...well if you had purchased a one day bus pass for £3.50 you would have to deal with the £3 cash fare on the tube but if you have to use the tube, the worst that will happen is the capping on oyster would automatically convert to a one day travelcard less 50p...in every which way the only and most flexible way to go is with oyster....most assuredly end of the discussion (unless you get involved with kid fares and I can't figure them out but for adults, oyster is the only way to go._

Ok. I just read about Oyster here: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...er/general.asp.

I have to say, it didn't clear up too much for me except to say that I understand (and trust) it is my best option for metro and bus travel in London.

Here we go:
1. How do I buy it? Do I buy online or in person when I arrive in London at Waterloo?

2. How can I possibly figure out how much to put on it, and how do I make sure that I don't leave London with several pounds left over?

3. Is it somehow hooked to a credit card to get 'refilled' automatically?

4. Do I need to pick a number of days that it is valid for or is it just good for however long?

5. The link above mentions that one can 'put' a travelcard or season pass on this card. That makes it sound as if it is both a pass and a currency...I don't get that.

I'm going back to re-read the threads here again dealing with Oyster to see if a second / third read clears this up for me.

This is what I did:
1.I went up to the ticket window at my nearest tube station (Lancaster Gate since you ask).
2.I gave them £20
I asked for an oyster card for £17 plus the £3 fee for the card.
4. I used it all over London on buses and tubes until it wouldn't work any more. This took about 5 days of intensive running around.
5. I went to the ticket window and asked to put on another £10.
6. I came back to the US with my oyster card in my pocket.
7. I will use it again in exactly the same way next trip.

If you can predict that you will use more than £22.20 worth of transport (using Oyster rates) while you're there, you'll be better off with a 7-day Travelcard. But the last few trips, we've had change from £20 for a week-long sojourn in London (probably largely because we use buses most of the time).

Here we go:
1. How do I buy it? Do I buy online or in person when I arrive in London at Waterloo? <b>In person.</b>

2. How can I possibly figure out how much to put on it, and how do I make sure that I don't leave London with several pounds left over? <b>Start with &pound;3 for each day you'll use it, and top up now and again. You'll probably be able to predict within a few p how much value to add for your last top-up without overshooting badly.</b>

3. Is it somehow hooked to a credit card to get 'refilled' automatically? <b>No. You can top up using a vending machine at any Tube station.</b>

4. Do I need to pick a number of days that it is valid for or is it just good for however long? <b>Forever.</b>

5. The link above mentions that one can 'put' a travelcard or season pass on this card. That makes it sound as if it is both a pass and a currency...I don't get that. <b>Two things can be &quot;loaded&quot; on Oyster cards: cash for Pay As You Go fares, and Travelcards, which have a period of validity. In the former case, Oyster acts as if you paid the going rate each time you use transit, decrementing your remaining balance until it hits the daily cap. In the latter, it doesn't keep track of how much you use it.</b>

mdtravel..

1. You buy oyster at any booking office at any tube station.

2. If you will be in London for 5 days or more you simply ask for a 7 day zone 1 &amp; 2 travelcard. You have to get it on oyster anyway...no paper 7 day passes are available at tfl booking offices in London anymore. No &pound;3 deposit needed.

3. If less than 5 days, simply ask for say &pound;10 of credit on the card...there will be an additional &pound;3 for a deposit.

4. Start using it on buses and tubes...do not worry, the proper fare will be deducted and capped precisely where necessary.

5. Every so often you can check the remaining balance on the card at any machine in any tube station...simply touch the card to the yellow reader and follow the instructions on the machine.

6. If you are running out of credit, simply purchase another 5 quid worth or whatever with a credit card at the machine.

7. If you are buying a 7 day pass and venture outside zones 1 &amp; 2, you can ask at a booking office about extensions. For example on the 7 day pass, the extension fare to Heathrow is only &pound;1.80 weekdays between 0700 and 1900 and &pound;1 at any other time.

What's to understand...it's really a piece of cake no different than say a prepaid phone card...the great tfl computer in the sky will keep track of everything for you...if you run out of credit if using the pay as you go, you will get an error message...simply refil it with more credit. Can do it at any of the machines at any station.

If you have money left at the end of the trip save it for your next trip...unlike a phone card it never expires...or I suppose as you leave London at Heathrow or on your last day if getting to Heathrow any other way, you can request a refund of the deposit (again no deposit is charged if your first use is a 7 day travelcard) plus any additional funds on the pay as you.

The card can hold up to 2 travelcards and 1 pay as you go account and deducts automatically. You need not worry about a thing unlike if you use the old fashioned paper travelcards where you have to decide each day what you think you're going to do. If you don't have a 7 day pass on it but rather just pay as you go and one day decide simply to use the buses, the most it will deduct will be the price of a one day bus pass minus 50p or &pound;3...as I said if one day you are taking a day trip via Victoria, you might normally have to buy a one day paper travelcard and if leaving before 0930 it would be a peak period one which is just under the 6 quid they have the gall to charge for a return tube trip in central London...with oyster it will simply deduct &pound;3 the price of 2 central London underground tickets on oyster (&pound;1.50 each way).

Again, I learned all the details but if it is too much, and it can seem complicated, just follow the advice above.

For 5 days or more get a 7 day travelcard...for less than 5 days budget about 5 quid a day and towards the end, you can check how much money is left very easily at the machines in the booking office and refil it if necessary.

What oculd be easier?

<i>p.s.</i> Early risers can ride the bus for 80p before 7:00 and after 9:30 M-F.

A 7-day Travelcard is valid for travel any time of day.

Good job Robespierre...

One other consideration as I noted to take into consideration is whether you are tubing back to Heathrow although the mental arithmetic is not hard.

If you buy a 7 day pass and stay for 5 days and on the sixth day head out to Heathrow via tube the extension is either &pound;1.80 or &pound;1 depending on whether it is peak (between 0700 and 1900 on weekdays) or off peak (any other time).

OTOH If you are using pay as you go for say 5 days, on the sixth day your price to Heathrow will be &pound;3.50 during peak hours (as above) or &pound;2 other times...certainly not a deal buster either way but you do have a good point...with pay as you go if you only use buses one day or two, you only pay &pound;3 that day sd oppodrf yo &pound;4.40 or if you only do one return trip on the tube for a day trip then it's the same 3 quid for that day...the only other consideration might be if you start your day before 0930 on q weekday and use the tube at all, then you're not talking about &pound;4.40 as a cap but the price of a one day peak travelcard less 50p which is something like &pound;5.80 as I remember, certainly either way you go the difference is not going to be earth shattering which is why I still use the 5 days as my barometer but there's no need to quibble one way or the other!

Again, it's neat 21st century technology that works nicely and really there's nothing for you to keep track of other than the initial decision to go with pay as you go or a 7 day pass (maybe a deal clincher for the 7 day pass for a first time oyster user is they waive the &pound;3 deposit if you buy a 7 day pass...but after the first time that's no longer an issue).

this has been an incredibly informative discussion and i thank both xyz and robesp. for their answers and mdtravel for good questions.

if I want to go from Heathrow to central london on day 1 and travel around central london on day 1 and day 2, at which time I go to gatwick, do i put 5 pounds on the oyster and buy a ticket to gatwick on the southern railway? or do i need to put more on the oyster.

again, thanks. this discussion has been much better than anything on the tfl site

I'll be using the transport for 4.5 days tops...most likely just 4 days. And we'll likely not be going outside London proper with the possible exception of:

York, for a day trip
Gatwick to catch our return flight

So it sounds like the pay as you go card is the best for us, and also it is the easiest to use.

bookmarking

Is is possible to buy an Oyster online from the US? I would prefer to have it on arrival at Heathrow - just one less thing to worry about.

No it's not...

Personally, I just don't understand all this let's get this, that and the other thing before leaving especially if you're not saving money. To me, it's just one other thing that perhaps in the rush to pack that you can forget.

If you're tubing in from Heathrow, it is not big deal to go to the booking office at the Heathrow tube stations (Terminal 4 is still closed and will be till September) and get it from the clerk directly while there.

I ordered from DB (the German national railroad) tickets to go from Frankfurt to Paris...somehow they got lost in the mail...long series of e mail back and forth; the bottom line was they refused to re-issue the tickets...so I bought a ticket at the Frankfurt airport (that was where the tour dropped us off instead of taking a taxi into Frankfurt main station) and it was totally hassle free and I wondered why I had bothered to try to get the ticket in advance; I suppose if I don't leave enough time to catch my train it might matter but I had plenty of time.

With London Underground tickets and what not, there is absolutely no need to buy in advance...you don't save money and the supposed &quot;convenience&quot; is non existant IMHO.

I have spent hours in line for metro tickets in various cities, but haven't dealt with London. We have only 3 days and don't want to waste time. I understand your opinion, but still ask the question - can we buy online?

NO, and why bother for something that takes 5 minutes - hand over cash, get Oystercard, what's so difficult about that

And the answer is at the start of the response...

No (unless you live in Britain)

alan...

You have to understand from reading this board that various people have their own definitions of &quot;convenience&quot;...so what if it costs them money...they want to arrive with everything they need...so they go out and prepurchase foreign currency when they pay huge fees and say I'm too busy to use an ATM upon arrival....I'm too busy to find a mobile phone store so I'll pay ridiculous roaming rates on my home carrier or buy a sim card from an American mail order house even though I'm paying 3 or 4 times the rate...all they want is &quot;convenience&quot;

BTW to be accurate, you can buy a paper 7 day travelcard on various web sites but then if you're using the tube to come in from Heathrow, you will need to go to the booking office for an extension anyway, an extension that is somewhat more expensive than using oyster...but then again it's one less thing to worry about....just, and it's my opinion, don't see what the worry about, especially in London where they speak the same language, of buying an oystercard the first day in London wherever...sure there might be a queue of 5 or 6 minutes....big deal..I doubt extremely if the extra 6 minutes will ruin your holiday and after you buy the oyster card, you can top it up if necessary using the vending machines where there rarely is a queue.

And you want to talk about queues on the London Underground...check out the Bayswater station at about 0920 every weekday morning as everybody is queuing up to buy the off peak travelcard...

Again please forgive me but personally, I just don't get it.

I too find it odd that after paying $$$$ for flight and another $$$$ for hotel, tourists quibble over &pound;3 on the tube!

Is that different from squeezing every last penny out of airfares and then blowing $50 on a taxi from the airport?

I find that odd too.

xyz or robes, can you please advise me on how much to put on the oyster to come in from heathrow on the tube to central london, and to travel around central london that day and part of the next? thanks!

A single Oyster fare from Heathrow to London is &pound;3.50 between 7AM and 7PM weekdays (&pound;2 other times).

If you take more than a couple of rides after you get into town that first day, you will probably reach the off-peak Oyster cap of &pound;5.80 for a Zone 1-6 Travelcard.

The next day, you will probably hit the &pound;3 bus-only cap or the &pound;4.40 bus + Tube cap for Zones 1-2.

Add up what you think you'll use.

One of the big advantages of Oyster is that you don't have to work out what pass you need to buy for that day.

So if the weather changes or you decide to stay longer somewhere you don't lose out either by wasting a travel card or by having excess payments to make.

&lt;&lt;and it's my opinion, don't see what the worry about, especially in London where they speak the same language, of buying an oystercard the first day in London wherever...sure there might be a queue of 5 or 6 minutes....big deal..&gt;&gt;

xyz123 - I didn't realize English was everyone's first language. I thought Heathrow was an international airport. have been in tube lines for probably 45 minutes in other cities. Getting a ticket ahead of time is doing everyone a favor. As a native New Yorker, you might not consider English my first language either.

ctigerk

As far as I can tell, <i> once you get an oyster card </i>, you can top it up online even if you don't live in the U.K. However, this isn't as convenient as it sounds - it's not like a single use rail ticket which you can print out on your home or office printer. Since the money you put on the card has to be recorded on the physical oyster card somehow, for all on-line 'top-ups' you have to designate a tube stop at which you will transfer the online order to the actual oyster card. (You must order online no later than 2300 of the day before, go to tfl dot gov dot uk slash oyster for further details.)

As for ordering the oyster card itself on-line, forget it unless you have a suitable mailing address in the UK to which tfl can mail the oyster card. Or maybe someday travel agents will start offering this as a service, but to the best of my knowledge, that day isn't here yet.

A possible compromise - for those desiring at least some 'have it in the hand before departure' convenience might be to buy your first day's transport in the usual fashion (either from the machines at Heathrow or from a travel agent, if it is really important to you to get it in advance) and then once in London, visit a station at your leisure and get an oyster card and start from there.

Thank you all for your help.

If getting on your way quickly is a big deal, you could buy a single ticket from Heathrow to central London on line for &pound;4.

http://www.ticket-on-line.com

the London School of Economics should offer an honorary PhD for anyone who can clearly explain Transport for London's fare system.

;-)

The fare structure for adults isn't bad; especially with oyster cards...all you have to decide is pay as you go or a 7 day travelcard and the computers take care of everything else.

But I will admit, I can't figure out rates for under 18 easily enough, sometimes you need a photocard sometimes you don't. sometimes transportaion is free other times there are children's rates.

But basically what do you really think is difficult about this oyster card business so we can try to assist.

I wanted to bring this thread back up to the top for people who may have missed it because it was a good discussion about Tube travel and the Oyster card.

These guys were great, and now I understand what I didn't before.

So pleased that i am kane now understands this. i'm a brit and it's got me totally puzzled. Is this system [and i can't believe someone actally planned this mess] Ken's idea of promoting tourism? I'm surprised anyone bothers.
Why don't you all come to Cornwall - no problem with the underground at all!!

So I have a question. I will be in London in a few weeks. Actually two questions. 1) so does that mean that <b>any travel</b> after 0930 is considered off peak, until when in the evening, 2000, 2359? Also, I will arrive on a Saturday around 1200, and I go to a station and get a 3-day pass, how long would that be good till, Tuesday at 0430, or Wednesday at 0430?

Yes, off peak is after 0930. The point is to offer an incentive not to join the commuter crowds in the Monday-Friday morning rush. As the TFL website says:
&quot;Can be used from 0930 Mondays to Fridays, all day Saturdays, Sundays and public holidays, on the day of validity and for any journey that starts before 0430 on the following day&quot;

And TFL seems pretty clear on the three day ticket to me:
&quot;Can be used all day on each day of validity and for any journey that starts before 0430 on the day following the expiry date&quot; must mean that a three day ticket bought any time on Saturday and is valid all day Saturday, Sunday, Monday and up until 0430 Tuesday.

Peak period begins at 04:30 and extends to 09:30 weekdays (<i>i.e.</i>, TfL &quot;calendar days&quot; begin at 04:30) All other time is off-peak.

So the 3-day travelcard you activate on Saturday will allow you to board transit until 04:30 Tuesday (even though the valid dates on it might read 14-OCT-2006 to 16-OCT-2006).

(But do check out your PAYG costs before you commit to a 3-day. It only comes in a Peak version for &pound;15.40 whereas three days of PAYG caps at &pound;13.20)

ttt