crosscheck

I think UA will cough up the involuntary bump payment of $1300 pp (or more) + rerouted ticket. Good luck - Please send us the link to your FT post.

julies

This is obviously a case of involuntarily being denied boarding. BUT, it is not tied to overbooking.

Ethically I think the $1300 compensation rule applies, but whether UA will agree that legally it applies is another matter.

BigRuss

<<Yes, United was to be the transatlantic carrier>>

Sparkchaser is right. This takes it out of the EU regs.

kybourbon

>>>I think UA will cough up the involuntary bump payment of $1300 pp (or more) + rerouted ticket.<<<

United is the carrier. You are only confusing things by continuing to bring up other airlines (CODESHARE) and the EU which has nothing to do with this. I would be surprised if they were compensated $1300 (part of the ticket wasn't paid - infant in lap).

>>>The original ticket must have been correct for the infant since on day one they were at the gate and boarding when the delay was announced. They had already cleared security.<<<

Yes, but they failed to get the new ticket (or United failed to give it to them). If they had to originally have a paper ticket the first day to travel, they should have known they needed a replacement/new paper ticket to travel the next day.

julies

According to United's website, the transatlantic flight is "operated by Lufthansa". So, does that change the rules so that EU regs apply?

And, kybourbon, how is the average person (infrequent flyer) supposed to know all of the ins and outs of what the requirements are for e-tickets vs. paper. Don't most of us just buy the ticket and then expect that the airline knows the rules? A United agent re-booked them on the flight for the next day and gave them documentation of the re-booking. Shouldn't the customer be able to trust that the agent of the airline knows what she is doing?

hetismij2

The ticket was bought from United, so it makes no difference that Lufthansa operated the flight. Even if EU rules applied I can't see you are entitled to compensation - it was not the airlines fault that airspace was closed.

The subsequent problem was definitely with United, and your family - they knew they needed a ticket for the baby and should have checked they had one.

hetismij2

Re-reading your post - it is the US leg of the flight which caused the problem so EU regs do not apply anyway. As I said the beef is with United, if there is a beef. Your family have some responsibility in all this.

I assume they have now made their flight and are on holiday.

DO they have travel insurance? If so they can perhaps claim their lost days from that.

You can read the EU rules here: http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens...r/index_en.htm

Marija

It is my understanding that the rules of the operating carrier, in this case Lufthansa, govern. However, Lufthansa appears without fault since passengers arrived without appropriate tickets.

julies

I've been doing some googling, and it appears that there are frequent problems with airline agents not understanding how to properly book lap children. And, there are apparently also many issues with United's website not visibly revealing to passengers whether or not their lap child is actually booked. The United airport agent who re-booked them seems to be the source of the error. She gave them a confirmation number and that is all. In today's world of e-tickets that is what most of us would expect, not a piece of paper.

And, for those who believe the fault lies with the re-booked passengers, not the airline, for not knowing they needed a paper ticket here is what United's website says about traveling with infants: "Infants traveling between the U.S. and Canada, or from Mexico to the U.S. or Canada, only pay taxes on the ticket. Infants traveling without a seat to other international destinations are charged 10% of the adult fare at the time of infant ticketing (it is usually less expensive to purchase the infant ticket in advance). Infants traveling on an adult's lap on front cabin awards or upgrades must pay 10% of the front cabin fare in applicable markets."

And, here is what their Contract of Carriage states: "Infants under the age of two years for whom a seat at the applicable adult fare has not been purchased, may not occupy a seat.
NOTE: Infants who are carried in an adult’s lap do not require a Ticket for domestic travel. Infants traveling internationally and to and from Canada require a Ticket, which may be discounted off of the applicable fare. In many cases a Ticket is required for an infant to travel on international flights even if no fare is paid. In addition, some international destinations may carry service charges. A USD 0 value or fee only Ticket may be issued for an infant."

So, I do not know how some of you assume that the parents should have known that a paper ticket was required for the re-booked leg. When they booked their flight, they purchased a ticket and paid for the lap child.

Yes, they are finally enroute as I type.

crosscheck

julies, You are wasting your energy here. Go on FT. The sages there will guide you. Your relatives have an excellent chance of getting compensated by United if they present their concern politely and concisely...I say this from experience.

julies

crosscheck--

You are right. I'll be using flyer talk for more info on this, especially now that, to add insult to injury, when they were finally able to fly the flight from the US to Europe was delayed causing them to miss their connection in Europe. Their choices in Frankfurt became to wait in the airport 10 hours for the next flight or take a hotel overnight (airline paid for) and wait 24 hours to take the next day's version of the flight they missed out of Frankfurt.

crosscheck

Sorry to hear their travel hassles continue. Please post the link to your Flyer Talk thread.

julies

crosscheck--

As you requested, here is the link to the FlyerTalk thread. Lots of interesting perspectives.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...l#post23127422

sparkchaser

Thanks for posting the link. It didn't take long for the discussion to turn to the always inevitable discussion of minutiae. I don't think I have seen a forum more obsessed with pedantry than flyertalk.

flpab

I use to be a huge flyertalk fan. That post disintegrated fast.
It use to be you would have two or even three gate agents at the boarding gate to help out. Not anymore, one agent many times. Last flight a guy was at the back of the plane and when someone was in his seat he realized he was on the wrong plane. The boarding agent wasn't even scanning our tickets. Must have been broke. I picked up on that right away and thought that was very strange and sure enough she let on a pax that wasn't to be on that flight. Big breach.

Have your son be polite, have all paperwork and email or call UA first. As we use to say he is probably SOL. I have seen this so much. We would know a crew were going to time out and yet they would make those people sit around for hours. If they offer to take you to another airport go! Never wait, always make sure there is another flight going to your destination. I never book the last flight of the day.

crosscheck

Thanks for the link. As a closet airline geek, I love FT banter. The posts (at least the coherent ones) confirmed what I thought: your son has a good chance of getting the full $52k involuntary bump compensation. Agree with the poster who advised that "the son -- not OP -- should send in a clear and concise webform complaint upon his return and lay out in crisp language the bare facts and nothing more."

I have had great luck with those online forms. Hope your son and his family have a wonderful vacation. Looking forward to updates.

Christina

good luck, but I agree the the logical thing to me would probably be to write to complain, be sure you have documentation (boarding passes, reservation number, etc.) and YOU state what you want in compensation. Which I would suggest be in frequent flyer miles because that's about all they can give you, it seems to me. I don't know about whether they can give money as compensation for those ticketing errors.

But I had something similar happen to me without so many problems, luckily, as a result. I was going home from a vacation, so basically just got home late. I had a flight cancelled for reasons that were never explained (I suspect they might have claimed weather, but it wasn't a weather problem where I was, but maybe where the plane was coming from). Unfortunately, all their flights to my home airport were already booked that day due to many cancellations the day before due to a storm. I finally begged and got one seat on a plane that would depart after maybe a 6 hours wait, and to an airport about 25 miles from where I was supposed to go. It departed late, also (no explanation why) so my baggage was lost in the transfer. Then I had to take a $60 taxi to get to where my car was parked at another airport. I had to wait home all day for my bag to be delivered the next day, but it was.

So I complained due to the delay in transferring the bag which cost me a lost day at home (they still had an hour to transfer it properly which is a normal time and I have no idea why they were 2 hours late to begin with, no explanation was given us), and the $60 taxi fare. I knew they weren't going to give me cash, so I asked for a certain number of frequent flyer miles (I think 25K). They did give me some, about half what I asked for, which is what I expected, actually.

If you get a $52K involuntary bump compensation, I would be amazed but good luck on that. If you seriously think you have a case to get $52K, I would state that in the complaint, what you expect that amount of money due to involuntary bumping. I don't think it's really bumping at all in the normal lingo, but I'm no Flyertalk expert. YOu were denied boarding due to the ticket issue, this was not "bumping" IMO.

lincasanova

I think they mean $5,200 total for 4 passengers. ( $1, 300 each).. not $52,000

Christina

That makes more sense, I didn't know the math, just saw they wanted $52K which I thought was an astounding amount.

crosscheck

Thanks linca - I did mean $5200, although $52k would be nice. We have received cash compensation + certificates for future travel.