nevertooold

My wife, 17 year old daughter and I have settled on Italy and France for 22 days this July (mainly as a graduation/18th birthday gift), and as we are now in the midst of finalizing our itinerary (all hotels and flights have been booked, subject to various acceptable cancellation fees and charges, if necessary - except for Cannes for which the charge would be 25% of the cost of the 3-night stay, but which rate, inclusive of breakfast, is more than acceptable), and wI am looking for some basic objective comments.

Please note that my wife and I were recently (this past May, when we were taking our honeymoon/once in a lifetime trip,(which obviously has now become our honeymoon/once in every 14 months trip) in Rome (3 days), Florence (2 days), Venice (3 days), Siena (1 day) and San Gimi (1 day), and are returning specifically to these cities again for our daughter's sake (which is not to say that we would hesitate to re-visit some if not all of them again even if we were on our own).

Anyways, here is the itinerary, as presently planned:
Day 1 (Saturday)- arrive in Rome at 7 a.m. and take a shuttle to our hotel (Capo D'Africa)- go to the Vaican as quickly as we can to try to get on a tour at 10 a.m. or 11 a.m., but, even if we miss these, as the Vatican Museum and Sistine Chapel are open till 4:45 on this particular Saturday, do the Vatican sights, if necessary (thank you Rick Steves) on our own.
Afterwards, go to the Spanish Steps, Trevi Fountain, Pantheon,and then Trastavere and/or Campo Fiore and/or Piazza Navona (depending on time and inclination) for the evening.

Day 2 - St. Peter in Chains (Moses) and San Clemente Church in the morning, Forum and Colosseum (Promenade Tours at 18 E per person) in the mid-day afternoon, and then Trastavere and/or Campo Fiore and/or Piazza Navona for the balance of the late afternoon/evening (again, depending on time and inclination).

Day 3 - leave Rome by car to go (a)either to Siena for 3-4 hours (mainly to see the Duomo, Baptistry, and the views from the tower), and then to San Gimi for dinner Vecchi Mura).After dinner, a final drive to Lucca (Cipriani) for the night.

or (b) leave Siena/San Gimi for later, and drive to Lucca for the day and evening.

Day 4 - See Lucca till about noon (if we went to Siena/San Gimi) and then go to Rapallo (Grand Hotel Bristol),or,if we were in Lucca the previous day, go straight to Rapallo.

Day 5 - Rapallo by the pool and water, with the late afternoon and evening at Santa Margherita/Portofino

Day 6 - a.m.- Rapallo
afternoon - drive to Monaco
evening - drive to Cannes (Grande
Criosette)

Day 7 - Cannes by the beach and pool

Day 8 - a.m.- Cannes
- afternoon/evening - Nice

Day 9 - early a.m.- Cannes
- late morning/early to mid-afternoon - St. Paul de Vence
- late afternoon - drive to Venice
(Ai Mori D'Oriente) and drop car
off at airport on arrival

Day 10 - Venice

Day 11 - Venice, and late afternoon train
to Florence (Hotel Caravaggio)

Day 12 - Florence - Accademia,
Medici, Duomo, Uffizi,

Day 13 - a.m.- wife and I walk around
and explore alone
(daughter's birthday
privilege)
noon - train to Siena for the
afternoon (if not already done
otherwise, group
exploration of Florence
for the day)

Day 14 - pick up car and go to the Malls
(Fendi, Prada, etc), and then to
Arezzo (Villa I Bossi)

Day 15 - a.m.- Montepulciano/Pienza
afternoon - pool at hotel

Day 16- a.m. wife and daughter sleep in, and
I go alone to San Gimi for 2-3 hours
(wife was not thrilled with it last
May), if not visited earlier
4:30 p.m.-drive to Rome for 9:30
flight to Paris.

Days 17-20 - Paris -hotel Relais Bosquet
Days 20-23(a.m.) Paris- Hotel Henri iv
Rive Gauche
Day 23 (a.m.)- flight home

Well, that's it for now, subject to any comments.

Please do not be shy, as nothing is carved in stone!

RufusTFirefly

I see that you're dropping your car off at the airport in Venice. Am I assuming correctly that your rental company does not have a drop off at P. Roma at the western end of historic Venice?

nessundorma

Did they abolish traffic in Italy for next July?

Seriously, You don't seem to allow for the possibility of horrendous traffic along the Mediterranean in July. I hope the day you are headed into Portofino isn't a weekend. I'm not sure you can leave Rapallo in the afternoon and be in Cannes by dinnertime. Likewise, I wouldn't leave San Gimigiano at 4:30 to catch a 9:30 flight.

Also, why rush through Tuscany once, then rush through it again? Why not take the time you need the first pass through, drop of your car in Florence, and then take a train to Venice, where you could pick up another rental and head to France. (Which reminds me: Am I reading your sked wrong, or are you saying you are going to drive from the French Riviera in the afternoon and be in your hotel in Venice sometime before midnight?

Anyway, since you want to leave from Paris, why not "do" Italy, and then go to France?

nevertooold

Rufus - the P. Roma drop-off closes at 6:00p.m. We have until 11:30 p.m. to drop the car off at the airport location, and we plan on arriving well after 6:00.

Ness - I'm not sure that I understand all of your comments.

We arrive in Rapallo from Lucca on a Tuesday afternoon, and the next day after relaxing in the morning, we plan on going into S.M. sometime in the afternoon (I understand that it is only about 10-15 miles away), and having dinner either there or in Portofino, and then returning to our hotel in Rapallo.

The next day, if we leave Rapallo by noon, should we not be able to arrive in Monaco by, hopefully, 3:00, tour the palace and walk through the streets until 6:00 or 7:00, and then drive to Cannes to our hotel by 8:00 or 9:00?

With respect to the 16th day (a Sunday), if I am going to S.G., I will probably leave the Arezzo hotel at about 7:00a.m., with the hope of arriving at S.G. by 8:30. I want to get there before the hordes arrive, if possible, only to walk through the town, take pictures of the countryside and climb the tower. I loved being there in May, walking alone between 7:00 and 9:00 in the morning, and I would love to be able to do this again.

My plan is to then go back to Arezzo to the pool and spend a few hours there before we have to leave to drive to the Rome airport.

I am trying to plan my travels to and from each town/city by using Mapquest as a general guide, and we are trying to get from one location to another at reasonable times without our having to be anywhere at a precise time for a specific reason (except of course in regards to our 9:30 pm Rome flight to Paris). If we arrive at Cannes at 9:00 p.m. as opposed to 7 or 8, then 9:00p.m. will be our dinnertime, and so be it.

As we are trying to give ourselves proper timing, however, when do you suggest that we leave Arezzo for the Rome airport? I thought that by leaving at 4:30 for a 9:30 flight (again, I understand that the drive is approx. 3.5 hours)we would have been safe enough. Should we consider an earlier drive?

Next, in regards to rushing through Tuscany first and then returning later, as opposed to doing it in one fell swoop, our reasons are as follows:

(a) we have arranged our flights on points and we were fortunate to get a late Friday departure for Rome on the last day of school (my wife is a teacher), and the early morning arrival into Rome was something I was seeking so that we could start touring early and have a full day. The arrivals into Venice or Florence ware later in the day, and therefore, much of the first day would have been lost in the air.

Once we determined that we were arriving in Rome, the trip became one of "What makes sense to do next, both geographically -as little re-tracing of steps as possible - and how do we get near water as often as possible in the middle of July, but still allow for reasonable sight-seeing to occur?"

The plane to Paris was arranged as a "free stop-over", and because we wanted to go to a second country, and our daughter wanted Paris, the choice was easy.

However, from our research, we decided that 6 days (which is basically all the time that we could allot to the "second country&quot in Paris would be required (including a half day at Versailles) in order to properly scratch the surface. However just because we were planning to be in Paris, doesn't mean that we could easily and readily get to the Riviera.

It seemed to be much more convenient to get to the French Riviera from the Italian Riviera - a 3 hour drive from Rapallo as opposed to a 500 mile excursion from Paris, and so we decided to rent a car in Rome, and drive to the Italian Riviera, from where we could drive to the French Riviera.

Once we decided to get the car, the next question became "Where can we go between Rome and the I.R.to break up the drive?", and the answer became Lucca. And then if we were going to go to Lucca, could we somehow spend some brief time in Siena and/or San Gimi, just to see the Duomo area in Siena (having been there in May, we figured 3 hours to be enough)and to be in S.G. for an early supper without the crowds. Objectively, it didn't seem crazy,except for the fact that I would have to drive for 1.5 hours after dinner to get to Lucca.

In any case, that is why we appear to be "rushing" through Tuscany at the start (merely as a break on the way to the I.R.), and why we are going to the F.R. from the I.R., as opposed to from Paris, and why we are going to be in France at 2 different times.

Anyways, we probably will decide to stay in Rome for much of Day 3 (taking Ira's advice on my other thread), and then drive straight to Lucca for dinner, with Siena (by train from Florence on Day 13) and, maybe S.G. coming later.

Venice came into the equation late, because, if we were going to have a car ( which came into being as a result of our deciding to see the F.R., and determining, in our plans that the prices for a car, as well as the conveniences for travelling when and where we wanted without the cost of (for 3 people) and the time constraints of trains), well, "Why not go to Venice from the I.R.? The travel time (about 5.5 hours) from Nice to Venice is not really much more than the time to get to Florence, according to Mapquest, and if we start at about 3 or 4 in the afternoon, shouldn't we easily get to the Venice airport (to drop off the car) easily by 11:30?

Finally, we feel that the last 3 days near Arezzo should be more than sufficient to enjoy Tuscany, especially when considering that we were there in May for 2 days already, and we will have been there for a day earlier in the trip.

Nessundorma, I know that I have been extremely wordy in my explanations, but I really would appreciate your comments, and, where appropriate, your advice.

As I said, most of my assumptions have been based on indications as set out on Mapquest along with various threads that I have read on this site.

Please feel free to set me straight, and many thanks .

nessundorma

I guess none of you get as cranky as I do when hungry!

I do think you are cutting it close by planning to arrive at the Rome airport at 8:00, especially considering that you have to drop off your rental car.

I also think you need to check with your hotel in Venice to make sure somebody is going to be up that late to let you in. You might look around to see if there are cheap flights that would allow you to drop off your car at the Nice airport and fly to Venice.

I am not sure that Michelin or Mappy is the best way to judge real-time driving distances, especially in summer. I assume you are planning to take the autostrade all the way from Rapallo to Monaco. If not, it will take you much longer than 3 hours. Even on the autostrade, let's hope you don't encounter slowdowns through the Genoa belt. One beautiful Sunday in October it took me an hour to drive just from Nice to Cap d'Antibes, partly because of construction but mostly because of traffic (I was on the coastal road).

I worry that you are going to be eating at a lot of AutoGrilles, because you don't seem to allow for the traditional 2-hour Italian lunch in your plans. Also, please factor in that when you traveled with your wife last May, you weren't competing with twice as many tourists for parking spaces and everything else (the attention of hotel clerks, trying to see a painting in a church or museum), so that too may slow you down.

And finally, you and your wife traveled for 10 days non-stop. This time, you are shooting for 22 days non-stop, with very little time to catch your collective breaths.

I hope you know your daughter to be a happy camper when it comes to such a busy itinerary, and that she is as eager to see these sights as you are to revisit them.

Have you been to Monaco? I found it quite dull and even ugly, and filled with retirees. You might think of stopping to have lunch in Eze instead.

nevertooold

Ness - Even as I am reading your response ( and by the way, thanks for your quickness - if only some of the hotels were this prompt...), I am trying to consider revisions.

I guess that I am now seeing the difficulties that come with trying to see too much in (although there are 22 days to play with) a time frame which really should not be used to accomodate so much.

Anyways, first things first. We are not lunch people at all. All of our hotels in Italy, as well as the F.R. include breakfasts, and as all hotels are (with the sole exception of Caravaggio) 4*, we are hoping that the food will be both good enough and plentiful enough to easily satisfy us through to a nice leisurely dinner. We do not really plan on having any lunches at all, as we really do enjoy sight-seeing, exploring, or just lounging by the pool or on the beach during the day, and consider luch hours for others to be more often than not opportunities to take in the sights in a less crowded fashion ( something we picked up over the years while visiting Disneyworld annually).

What I am now considering is Rome (3 days, 2 nights), Lucca (1/2 day, 1 night), Rapallo (2 1/2 days, 2 nights), Cannes (3 days, 3 nights), St. Paul De Vence (2 days, 2 nights), Florence (2 days, 3 nights), outside Arezzo (3 days, 2 nights).

We will continue to visit Santa Margherita/Portofino from Rapallo, both Nice and now Monaco from Cannes, Siena from Florence, and Montepulciana, Pienza, and, for myself alone, San Gimi from Arezzo.

By removing Venice from the equation, does this now seem less rushed, and somewhat more feasible, to you?

nevertooold

top up for Nessundorma, Ira, or any of the week-end crowd.

nevertooold

a further top-up.

SusanP

I don't quite understand why you only have 15 nights listed if you actually have 22 days (or is that because the last 6 nights are in Paris?), but 7 different hotels in 15 nights is certainly VERY rushed! You will spend so much time on trains and so little time in each place. It looks exhausting. And I sure wouldn't want to cut out Venice. Maybe you should just do Italy and then fly to Paris, leaving out the French Riviera. If you want a beach vacation, save it for some other time. I love beach vacations but wouldn't want to spend so much time in Europe on a beach when there is so much else to see.

nevertooold

Susan - Yes, the 15 nights exclude our time in Paris, and we were never going to be on a train, initially, except to go from Venice to Florence.

In any event, having had the opportunity to take into consideration comments from Ira and Nessa, we have decided (that is for now...who knows what I will come up with in the next 3 hours, let alone the next 3 months!)
to forego Venice. Although we loved it, it just complicates things for this particular holiday.

Having been told that our preferred St. Paul De Vence hotel is not in fact available, we have decided as follows:

Days 1 to 3 - Rome, driving to Lucca in late afternoon of day 3

Days 4 to 6 - leave Lucca before noon on day 4, and spend the rest of time in Rapallo, with an afternoon/evening in San Mar./Portofino - go to Cannes late afternoon on day 6

Days 7 to 10 - Cannes, with visits to Nice, St. Paul, and if so inclined, Eze and/or Monaco, leaving later in the afternoon of day 10 to Florence, where we will drop off our car on arrival

Days 11 to 14- Florence with one day having a day trip (by bus leaving at approx.10:00 am)to Siena, and then late afternoon/evening in San Gimi

Days 14 to 16 - after once again picking up a car in Florence on the morning of day 14, driving to outside Arezzo with visits to the mall, Montepulciano and Pienza, and, finally, leaving on day 16 for Rome airport at approx. 3:00 to go to Paris at 9:30 (NESS - does this give us enough time to get to our flight?)

You must understand that although we will spend a good portion of time at or near beaches, we are not looking at this as a "Florida- style" holiday.
The Rapallo location gets us a lovely 4* hotel with a pool availability near S.M./Portofino at 180E for 3 people as opposed to similar accomodations in S.M. (eg. Metropole or Laurin) at 290E or 260E, and from what I have been reading, the bus, boat and walking routes in the area are all enjoyable (no cabs will be taken) and will give us a nice feel of the area over the 2.5 days or so.

With respect to Cannes, we definitely do want beach availability as it is July, but that is not to say that we will be there for all 4 days. Our plan is to stay in Cannes, at the beach, and along the boardwalk on the first day, and to spend each morning thereater by the pool until we are ready to take a bus or train each of the following afternoons to, respectively, Nice and St. Paul, with our "leaving day" left open for relaxation, or a few hours in Monaco, Juan Les Pins ,Nice, or whatever on our way to Florence.

Objectively, it seems that these plans have somewhat reduced travel times, given us what amounts to, basically, an extra day in each of Rome, Cannes and Florence, and have still allowed for as much relaxation and culture as we may want, without making our time seem frantic or harried.

More comments please.

nevertooold

a further top up

nessundorma

hi again,

I think you are wise to drop Venice in July. And now your plan seems much more flexible, with either/or options built into the sightseeing.

If you don't eat lunch, you indeed get 2.5 extra hours per day in Italy!

That said, I do think you are wise to leave between 3 and 3:30 for the Rome airport. You might end up early and hate me, but at least there is no chance you'll have missed your flight. (And if you run into traffic or a slow line at the rental drop-off, you'll be glad).

One thing you might consider is driving your car to Santa Margherita Ligure, parking there and taking a boat trip to Portofino. Just a thought. But it really is the ideal way to enter Portofino. You really appreciate the beauty of the harbor. If you are feeling energetic and it's not too hot, you can walk back to Santa Margherita Ligure (but ask someone to give you a good map for the pedestrian path).

One advantage of the boat is that the only road into Portofino is a narrow two-way road that you have to share with busses and trucks and tourists. When traffic is really bad, there are electric signs on the road that flash things like "Two hours from this point to Portofino" (and if you are walking, it's more like one hour).

In Portofino, if it's not too hot, it is worth walking uphill, toward the promonotory on the Mediterranean side, to see not only the views but the cemetery and mausoleum. Unless of course you prefer to shop.

Have a wonderful trip! The Italian Riviera is perhaps my favorite spot on earth. The food is so good, you may find yourself adopting a lunch habit.

nevertooold

Ness- thank you for your advice.

Are you able to make any recommendations for dinner restaurants in any of the cities/towns that I've mentioned?

I'm looking for reasonably priced restaurants with some ambience, if possible.

Thanks again.

nessundorma

I've been very happy following the recommendations in Fred Plotkin's book "Italy for the Gourmet Traveler." Most of his restaurants are very affordable and he specializes in family-owned restaurants that are filled with local charm and authentic food. It is worth buying his book and then either ripping out or xeroxing the pages you need to take with you. The book is way too heavy to carry!

Also, you would do well to peruse the restaurant recommendations for both Italy and France on the Slow Travel website. They also have a message board, but you better not tell them how quickly you are moving along during your trip -- because they are definitely a "Slow Travel" crowd.

If you plan on eating in Portofino, try walking up into the hills away from the toursity waterfront (walk opposite the promontory with the castle). There are charming smaller places up there. And look closely at any menu for the fine print to make sure that the table cover charge ("coperto&quot is not extravagant.

buon viaggio e buon appetito!