"I know that there is no class distinction in the USA"

Are you dreaming?

Chuckle! It's called irony ;-)

This thread is a hoot.

I'm sorry, but I cannot bite my tongue.
This thread has so many parochial, ill informed and US centric comments.

Why do some people bother travelling, if these are the views they return home with?

There are entire counties in the US where you cannot buy alcholic beverages let alone drink them with your meal. Yet we have comments like: "Sorry, but that's what I like about America. With a few exceptions, you can ask for ketchup, mayo, hot sauce, steak sauce, what ever, and they bring it to you without giving you "the look"."

Then this comment:

"As for drinking hot with a meal... I think US is the only country to serve ice drinks with hot food." Try Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, Asia, Canada ........


"The coffee is far better in cafes or at Starbucks, if that's what you're used to." You prefer Starbucks or American coffee to French or Italian? - give me a break.


I have listed a few other pearlers which just speak for themselves:

Many tourists want to get a bottle of white wine with the fondue but the Swiss will order the hot tea. The reason is that the cold wine will coagulate the hot cheese balls and they won't soften down for two days.


It would be a bit like asking for vegetables to be plonked on the plate with your meat.

know that there is no class distinction in the USA, but I am ancient enough to have read Vance Packard's book, "The status seekers"

Sorry, but that's what I like about America. With a few exceptions, you can ask for ketchup, mayo, hot sauce, steak sauce, what ever, and they bring it to you without giving you "the look". Now having said THAT..I would not be going to Tallivant and asking for ketchup..but I wouldn't be going to Tallivant anyway, so not an issue.

Oddly, this "do as the locals do" rule seems to work only one way. If a French person in the USA wants to have salad after the main course, it's because that's civilized. If an American in France wants it the other way round, that's being an oik. How odd.

"A GOOD chef will adapt to the desires of a customer." You mistake a chef with Burger King.

What struck me more was Americans trying to tip the waiter. Obviously, they didn't read up on the VAT.

Les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas.

>>This thread is a hoot.<<

Particularly the cut & paster (against Fodor's rules btw) reference to the tattered and discredited Vance Packard.

Of course, what really concerns me, is the beard worn over or under the napkin?

This thread reminds me a funny story my parents tell about travelling in France. They had rented a car to explore the country outside of Paris. They went to a little restaurant for dinner near the B&B they were staying.

Looking at the menu - it was all in french - they were confused. Fortunately a nice Canadian couple helped them translate the items. When the waitress came over - my parents ordered a roast chicken dinner and wanted a cheese plate for an appetizer. The waitress looked down at them with contempt and said (read this will snooty french accent) NO! Cheese cannot come before ze meal! It closes ze throat!

She actually Would Not serve it to them.

Of course, coffee with breakfast is ok. But I have never EVER gotten coffee before or during any other meal. No matter what I said or did. They will eventually say ok, but won't bring it! I generally sleep late, skip breakfast and want my coffee while I'm waiting for my lunch to be served. (I don't LIKE coffee after a meal!) Won't happen in France!! It just isn't DONE! You can try but they do not have the same attitude about the customer being right -- THEY believe they are right and will behave accordingly! To solve the problem I stop off at a bar and have a coffee before going to a restaurant for lunch! And before I get blasted, I LOVE France. It is my favorite place in the world and if I could figure out a way to make a living I would live there! I spend a couple of months a year there! (I once got a waiter at a very expensive hotel in Sweden to bring me coffee before lunch, but only after a very long discussion about how that "is not done" and how "American" I was.)

I love France too which is why I'm going back in November. I don't get "the look" very much anymore and can usually change "the attitude" if I work on it. They just kind of tickle me with all the "don'ts" and "musts". I can't help thinking to myself sometimes, "just get over it all ready. Life is too darn short!!!" LOL

"Won't happen in France!! It just isn't DONE! You can try but they do not have the same attitude about the customer being right -- THEY believe they are right and will behave accordingly!"

sorry to burst that bubble, but when I was in Paris I got coffee before and during my meals all the time. They were really nice to me about it and didn't give me any problems.

First of all, thanks for the funny thread.

Regarding the white bread/crusty bread controversy:

When I grew up, everyone who liked Wonder Bread was a Christian. The people who liked crusty bread (usually rye or pumpernickel) were Jewish. The Christians also had Hellman's mayo on their sandwiches and the Jews had mustard.

Since I was raised Jewish, I'll take my pastrami on rye with mustard. If someone asks for mayo with his, he is definitely not a Member of the Tribe.

Vance Packard's books were written about the 1950's and 1960's and were talking about what America was like when I grew up. They would have minimal relevance today.

And, I do agree, that any chef worth his salt (pun intended) will be gracious enough to adjust to the needs of his customers. If he did not, well, he would not be a chef for long.

While I don't drink coffee with my meal, if you want it, go ahead and ask for it. It won't be the first time someone has done so and, if the restaurant is concerned about its customers, you should be able to get your coffee when you want it--even if you are dressed like Rumpole.

Rather than drinking Chateau Thames Embankment, I think Rumpole favored "plonk". Maybe its the same thing--LOL.

I don't drink coffee with a meal, but I have occasionally ordered a coffee BEFORE lunch, if I haven't had much that morning and kind of want my caffeine jolt, and want to just sit and relax a bit before having lunch. I've done that several times in Paris and never once has anyone refused to serve me coffee before lunch or even cared. I just order what I want, and don't expect people to give me a hard time or care what I am ordering. I really don't think most waiters really care that much about what customers in a cafe order and when.

The cheese thing was that personal waitress' thing, also, as some French restaurants have items with cheese in the list of appetizers.

Maybe I have been in a parallel universe in France, but I don't recall once any waiter ever refusing to give me what I wanted, as long as it was on the menu somewhere and available in the place.

There's little doubt that the Chateau Thames Embankment at Pomeroy's was definitely in the "plonk" category. You could probably call it "vin tres ordinaire".

"Won't happen in France!! It just isn't DONE! You can try but they do not have the same attitude about the customer being right -- THEY believe they are right and will behave accordingly!"

What a funny and revealing post. Obviously from someone who "believes he is right and behaves accordingly". Talk about "attitude" and being wrong.

With the VERY rare exception, Parisian waiters are happy to give you exactly what you want, even if it is abominable. Don't be surprised if you hear people laughing in the kitchen, though.

>>>>
Don't be surprised if you hear people laughing in the kitchen, though.
>>>>>

parisians have been entertaining visitors from around the world for centuries...including russians, chinese, arabs, japanese, etc, etc. i think it would take an extremely strange request to make a busy parisian waiter go into the kitchen and laugh.

"Parisian waiters are happy to give you exactly what you want, even if it is abominable. Don't be surprised if you hear people laughing in the kitchen, though."

That's pretty much true of restaurant kitchens everywhere. If it weren't for the opportunities to mock the customers once you're out of their hearing, nobody would last more than two weeks in the restaurant biz.

My partner and I were in London on buisness about 20 years ago. Our host picked us up at the airport around lunchtime and took us to a pretty fancy hotel dining room, can't remember which one.

We were so tired after the overnight flight and both wanted coffee with our meal. The waitress very sweetly said, "Oh madame, I am ever so sorry but we serve coffee AFTER the meal, in the lounge".

We explained that we had just arrived on an overnight flight and really needed the caffeine. She replied, "Oh madame how very dreadful for you but we only serve coffee AFTER the meal, in the lounge."

So we had our coffee after the meal, in the lounge.

Aside: Americans use or are habituised to three drugs: Alcohol, Nicotine and Caffeine. Caffeine is used to wake up in the morning. Nicotine is used all day to allay the pains of existence. Alcohol is used to depress an unhappy existence. Go ahead, ypu are the PAYING customer! Order what ever you desire.

GSteed, I'm going to take your post as "dry humor".

Good grief! I wouldn't let a waiter, message board know-it-all, or anyone else dictate what I should or shouldn't drink with, before, or after my meals! Personally, I don't care for coffee with my lunch or dinner, but that's just me. I don't find it odd if someone else enjoys it though.

Belinda