Padraig
You should know by now that there are three topics that twist knickers and attract trolls: tips, chips and quips.

I have the Marriott Rewards Premier card listed in the article dulcias posted the link to. The article says its a chip and pin, but it's not. It's a chip and signature. The BA card is listed as being chip and pin but if you go to the details, it says chip and signature.

I don't have either card, but I bet that the Marriott card and the BA card that I am continuously being offered in the U.K. are chip and pin. Just as the British MBNA card that I have (MBNA being part of Bank of America) is fully equipped with both chip & pin and also wave & pay.

The U.S. BA card is issued by Chase, I'm pretty sure the Marriot card is also issued by Chase. As clearly as possible, as I said above, all credit cards issued by Chase in the USA are chip and signature. Period. Full Stop.

As we also said, all cards issued by UK banks, even those that are subsidiaries of US banks are chip and pin.

Meant to say all credit cards issued by Chase with an emv chip, and not all Chase cards issued in the USA are emv cards, are chip and signature.

Yes xyz123, I saw your post and was in agreement. Howveem the article that dulcias posted provided contradicting information, so I was attempting to point out that the article was flawed.

I have also done fact checking on so called a long list of Chip and PIN cards and found out just by going to the bank sites are start reading what banks say they offer that nearly all of them are just Chip and Signature cards.

Why so much misinformation? I suspect financial and travel columnists obtain easily available list of "chip" cards somewhere and publish them without doing fact checking. Then posters at travel forums, such as this one, then also republish the same list without fact checking.

Even the famed AFB Chip and PIN card has limitations. None of the articles I have read talked about different Chip and PIN card capabilities. It appears, by synthesizing the actual experiences of people who have used AFB cards, it can do some kind of Chip and PIN but not others. It appears an AFB card requires an online validation. What appears to be needed at remote unattended POS terminals are Chip and PIN cards capable of doing offline validations. Because I have not read analysis by those who have access to insider info, this is just a guess.

greg....if you go to the forum on flyertalk, you will find a thread of about 140 pages in length (yikes) dealing with emv cards issued in the USA. Somewhere buried in there are experiences people have had with Andrews visa credit cards. As I said, since I have used this card, at personneled pos locations, the card functions as chip and signature and if a merchant is convinced that he or she has additional liability when a pin is not used they will refuse to continue processing the charge and as I said there is no way of telling the terminal to process the transaction as chip and pin. But there have been reports the card does function at unpersonneled kiosks as chip and pin! So where does that card fall on the list? Chip and signature or chip and pin? That thread seems to have the best information of all I've read and that's generally where I pick up my information.

I have an Andrews Federal Credit Union Chip and Pin credit card which I got last year.
Where it Worked: France-Train ticket machines (RER from airport, all other ‘regular’ train stations), Most parking machines (if they took credit cards at all), All gas stations (if manned I had to sign, unmanned enter code). Italy – all train ticket machines. Both France and Italy - stores/restaurants (but any American credit card worked in those).
Did Not Work: never worked in any of the many toll booths I went through in France.
Note: most machines for credit cards in Europe require that you insert your card and wait – what seems like a very long time for an American used to the ‘quick swipe’. Don’t take the card out till it tells you to.

Who cares which cards are chip and signature. Rather than getting lost in the trees, stand back and see the forest.

Chip and pin is the card a traveller should have. Period. Full stop xyz123. So rather than getting hung up on which bank, credit union, etc. DON'T offer PIN cards, why not spend your time suggesting which cards ARE chip and pin.

Greg, I agree there is a lot of misinformation out there and I'm not about to vet it all when I look for a link. I don't need to, I have chip and pin cards. The person looking to find a chip and pin card is the one who needs to do the due diligence.

I don't know why US providers are going to chip and signature, the only glimmer of a reason I can find is this, " While a traditional magnetic stripe card costs about $2 to deliver to customers, a chip card can cost $15 to $20, according to ROAM, which makes readers and software for secure processing. For merchants, mag card readers typically cost about $20 in volume purchases while a chip reader costs about $40; with a PIN keypad, it can run about $100. Signatures are easier for banks than PIN codes because they don’t require systems to manage the codes. Bank of America (NYSE:BAC) said it stuck with signatures because that’s what people are familiar with in the US, but that sounds pretty lame when you read about the hassles travelers go through in Europe. The bank did roll out chip and PIN cards to corporate clients in the US last year -- a year after it had issued them to corporate and commercial clients in Europe in 2011."
Read more: http://www.minyanville.com/sectors/f...#ixzz2nklwkv9X

The same article also offers this example: "One traveler recounted flying into Charles DeGaulle Airport and finding that the rail ticket machines required chip and PIN cards. The line at the only cashier taking magnetic swipe cards was a two-hour wait, so he jumped into a taxi and paid 60 euros to get to Paris rather than the 10 euros the train would have cost."

Does anyone want to argue they are happy waiting 2 hours to use their swipe card or pay 6 times as much for a taxi?

I find it amazing that any American traveller would want to try and argue they don't need one or try to lead people down red herring paths to avoid the whole point. A traveller without one MAY have problems and they can be avoided by having one. So why NOT get one?

Again, while the majority of Americans who do not travel need not worry about it, this is a travel forum and so the majority of those who are reading here are likely to travel. For travellers, there should be no question of whether they need one or not.

Go to this link and then click on the spreadsheet.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...ature-120.html

I fly overseas every week for work and finally decided that I needed to get pin and chip credit cards. I got one from Chase bank that charges no international transaction fee. I then called my Citibank Visa card folks and have had a pin and chip card sent to me with my same account.
The problem that I have run into is buying things online for overseas such as airline and train tickets,etc.

TAP airline charged me $80 to buy tickets as I couldn't purchase them online due to their site not taking pin and chip cards-I did fight it and got the $80 back.
For those who think that the US shouldn't have to change and that the world should use our way-why can't we ever be on the same page? The rest of the world went metric and we still cannot join them-ridiculous!

I have offered the info of which card is chip and pin. And the answer is USAA mastercard. Almost all other USA credit cards with an emv chip are essentially chip and signature.

dulciusexasperis...I know I responded several times. And I will repeat for the third or fourth time. The only true chip and pin card I know of is the mastercard issued by USAA. (Some banks may offer chip and pin cards for corporate clients, we're talking here about personal cards). The spreadsheet you refer to on flyer talk I believe shows that. Are there smaller banks and fcu's that do offer true chip and pin cards. Perhaps; I've missed them if so. The problem with USAA is that one requires some sort of affiliation with the US Armed Forces to join.

I never implied or meant to imply it is desirable to have a chip and pin card. The only thing that may be unclear, and if so I apologize, is whether Andrews, State Department and Penagon FCU credit cards are true chip and pin and I think I've responded to that.

I don't think there is one thing I've said that is out lf line with your thinking. And I agree with you. I find it hard to understand why the US banks have so embraced chip and signature which most USA, as a matter of fact almost all, US cards with emv chips are. If you want to criticize me, at least read the posts. I don't think I've said one thing different than what you just wrote or meant to imply.

I'll repeat. The only fairly sized bank I know of issuing true chip and pin cards in the USA is USAA but also be aware the card carries a 1% foreign transaction fee.

One can be critical and that's anybody's right. But at least be critical if something that has been said is untrue and I don't think anything I've said is untrue. You want to disagree, that's your perogative.

It isn't the validity of what anyone has written that I am criticizing xyz123. What is annoying me is the time being spent on irrelevant points. Look at the Flyertalk link, USAA is NOT the only chip and pin card and there are some others which are chip and signature but also have chip and pin as a secondary priority that they will work with. What constitues a 'fair sized' bank, I have no idea but what is the relevance of whether an issuer is 'fair sized' or not? State department cards ARE available to the public contrary to what many may think. Do the research if you want one. But all of that is still not the issue.

From my perspective, any international traveller should be asking 2 questions.

1. Do I need 'chip and pin'? The answer to that provided by knowledgeable travellers should be YES. No maybes, no sometimes, a simple YES.

2. Where can I get one if I live in country X? The answer to that should be provided by knowledgeable travellers from the same country, who know who provides them. Not posts about who doesn't provide them.

Those are the ONLY TWO QUESTIONS that need to be discussed here really.

Dutyfree, do you actually have a PIN number for those cards or are they 'chip and signature' cards?

I can't understand your comment re TAP not taking your card online. You do not use the PIN when you make an online booking/purchase with a chip and pin card. The process is no different than with your old swipe and signature card.

If I book a flight online, I give my card number and expiry date along with the 3 digit security code on the back. That's it. I would NEVER give out my PIN number online and it is never asked for.

If I go to the TAP website and book a flight, they will take any of my cards, all of which are chip and pin.

The PIN doesn't come into online transactions. The PIN is only used in a card reader.

Again, a lot of misconceptions and misunderstanding around this topic.

All I did was lay out the question regarding Andrews, Pen Fed and State Department FCU's. It is not clear from the blogs how well they work as chip and pin. I'll leave it at that.

Name another US bank issuing chip and pin cards at this time that always function as chip and pin. But I agree if at all possible one should have a chip and pin card, we agree on that, and it is problematic just how effective chip and signature cards are. I'll let it go at that. I've made my points and am tired of arguing about it. You say you have several chip and pin cards. Are you from the USA? If so, tell us the banks so we can all avail.

(BTW, Diners Club one of the original up scale credit card companies was folded internationally into master cards several year ago. In North America, Diners Club has the mastercard logo on it and is offered by the Bank of Montreal and indeed is chip and pin so those who had Diners Club cards do have chip and pin. One small problem, though. Bank of Montreal at present is not offering Diners Club to new applicants in the United States. Also in theory Discover card which for the most part has been useless is supposed to be acceptd internationally at any merchant taking Diners Club (especially useful in CChina) and discover has announced plans to go emv in the near future though I'm not sure if it will be chip and pin or chip and signature.

>>Those are the ONLY TWO QUESTIONS that need to be discussed here really.<<

Well <I>HE</i> has spoken and that's that.

>>1. Do I need 'chip and pin'? The answer to that provided by knowledgeable travellers should be YES. No maybes, no sometimes, a simple YES.<<

Uh - no, one does not NEED a chip and PIN card. It would be nice if they were widely available to Americans, but they aren't. And millions of those Americans travel to Europe every year and manage just fine. Perfect? - no. But not a big deal.

>>2. Where can I get one if I live in country X? The answer to that should be provided by knowledgeable travellers from the same country, who know who provides them. Not posts about who doesn't provide them.<<

Again <I>HE</i> has spoken. The rest of us must not be knowledgeable. Jeeze louise - this is a place for <u>discussion</u> - not your mandate re what is acceptable to post and what isn't.

I will repeat for people who may be reading this to actually find useful information:

Andrews Federal Credit Union offers CHIP AND PIN (you get a PIN code!!!!). You do not need to be a member of the military. There is no foreign transaction fee.

Who cares if you have to sign occasionally. The point is it works in all those places where there is no human and where the 'regular' (American) swipe cards do not work.

>>2. Somebody brought up the Andrews card. While the Andrews card (as well as State Department and Pentagon_ FCU's do provide for chip and pin coverage in most (but not all) unpersonneled situations (they work sometimes and sometimes don't), the default at a personneled pos terminal is chip and signature. Thus in this case, if the merchant adamantly refuses to take chip and signature, even with the Andrews and the other FCU cards, the customer would be out of luck. There ia no way to force the Andrews card to be a chip and pin card in those situations and there have been a number of reports of merchants refusing to complete the transaction (the transaction does go through but it's the merchant who voids the transaction once and only after a receipt is printed and the terminal indicates signature required).<<

Agreed xyz123, the topic has gone beyond the ridiculous. Now janisj is back to 'you don't need one'.

When is the last time you tried to pump gas at an unattended gas station in France janisj? Or tried to buy a train ticket from an automated ticket machine in an anattended small town train station? Or tried to get a ticket from an automated ticket machine for a bus or subway in many European cities? Tell us how you 'manage just fine'.

You don't even have to leave the contintent to have a problem. Show up at the Chatham, Ontario train station in Canada today and you will find the station doors automatically open at 30 minutes before a train is due. You get your ticket from an automated machine that requires a chip and the station is unmanned. That is in a town of 100,000 people!

Let me ask you a simple question janisj. Do you have a chip and pin card? Let me guess. You don't. So you try your hardest to justify not having one rather than yelling like hell at your bank to get one. Stick your head deeper in the sand and ignore reality why don't you.

Ask yourself why your government's agencies are providing their employees and their families with chip and pin cards? Do you think it is because they don't think they are necessary?

As for your comments re chip and signature defaulting to chip and signature and merchants not completing the transaction, ask yourself why then are your banks issuing cards that will not work for their customer when they travel.

Don't just say they won't work and so there is no use getting one. No one is suggesting you get a chip and signature card, specifically because they won't always work.

However, even a chip and signature that has PIN as a secondary priority WILL work in automated machines and not ALL merchants will refuse to accept a signature. Some yes, all, no. So even a chip and signature is far better than swipe and signature.

Savvy travellers from the US are finding ways to get cards and anyone can, but those who persist in saying, 'I don't need one' are just being dumb.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun...money-20130610

I'm done with this topic. Those with a brain will find a way to get a card. Others will not.

xya123, my cards are from Canada, the UK, Switzerland and the Cayman Islands. None from the USA. Is it any wonder I don't have US cards. LOL

I'll give you a tip xzy123. Look for the Canadian banks operating in the US as potential issuers of chip and pin. Scotiabank, BMO and international banks like HSBC. Here is a presentation from Scotiabank on the subject.
http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/common/...pPINUS-BNS.pdf

https://www.bmo.com/pdf/SpendAndPaym...May%202011.pdf

What I find amusing in all of this is that many frequent travellers from the USA have quietly received letters offering them a 'free upgrade' to EMV cards from their US banks while the majority of the public have been kept in the dark. A two tier customer service it seems.

"What I find amusing in all of this is that many frequent travellers from the USA have quietly received letters offering them a 'free upgrade' to EMV cards from their US banks while the majority of the public have been kept in the dark. A two tier customer service it seems."

Not quite so! American banks are not quite up to this level. Most are self-serving. One has to contact their bank(s) to see what is going on. Amex is the most forthcoming on all on events thus far. If you are one of the "elite" banking members (spending over $100,000/year, you do receive such offers, or at least some information, but not so the general public.

I agree that US financial institutions have not gone out of their way to promote emv. Their attitude is best summed up by the script Capital One customer service reps are trained to give when asked i.e. merchants are required to accept any valid mc or visa card according to their merchant agreements. As noted throughout, the US banks just don't seem to see the value of emv in the first place and even when they do, almost universally for whatever reason they have chosen to go in the direction of chip and signature.

Even Amex, one big happy family, supposedly, who offer chip and pin cards throughout the world only offers chip and signature on most of its cards available in the USA.

There is simply not enough pressure being exerted on the banks to move to chip and pin for whatever the reason as I said. And of course, different people have different attitudes regarding charging expenses when in a foreign land. I have read "advice" which I don't get to only use credit cards for large purchases! Why? Well supposedly the more you use a credit card, the greater the chances of fraud from cloning the cards. Makes no sense, of course, as US liability laws protect consumers to be at risk of only $50 in case of credit card fraud and almost no bank even tries to collect the $50, they eat almost all fraudulent charges.

The other piece of advice, which I don't get, is to use a debit card in lieu of a credit card. Really? Liability laws in the USA are not quite as protective on debit card transactions as credit card transactions and if a debit card is cloned, actual money leaves your account and may turn your checks to rubber and a number of unpleasant things.

Nobody here is saying it would not be nice to have a chip and p pin card. What people from outside the USA might not realize is they are simply for the most part unavailable which is all I've tried to say in many ways. US banks are under a mandate from mc and visa to establish emv by 2015 but as of now, it really looks like they will resist chip and pin and try to go with chip and signature. As pointed out, some of the reasons they claim they "prefer" chip and signature are hilarious like the one that says American consumers prefer to sign for dharges rather than enter a pin.. This is simply reality.

The other thing that may be hard to swallow for some is that the majority of Americans simply do not travel beyond the shores as the country is so large from sea to shining sea. They have no idea. (I know people living here in NY who have never been west of the Hdson or so it seems).

I don't understand why this thread has become so contenteous. Yes chip and pin would be desirable but is it absolutely necessary today for travel? There are few people like me who would be lost without the ability to charge even the cheapest meal at McDonald's (although I do have a self imposed limit that I will not charge anything for less than 1 currency unit be it US dollars, Canadian dollars, Aussie dollars, pound s, euro, kroner, rand, pesos, yen or whatever. Others think I'm crazy. Fine. But chip and pin, as of today, is simply not widely available in the USA. I will grant you Andrews, State Department, Pen FCU's despite their limitations are chip and pin (with limitations as noted), several other fcu's are too. I know UNFCU, only open to staff at the UN offers emv cards which I think are chip and pin but not sure. Chase, Citibank, Bank of America, the three largest US banks offering emv cards make some of their cards available with emv but as noted are all chip and signature which I agree are only marginally better than magnetic strip. Wells Fargo is in the process of rolling out emv cards but again apparently chip and signature. USAA offers chp and pin but it restricts membership.

So, and it's only for information purposes not to put anybody down. I am no longer the confrontational type which I once was admitedly. All indications are chip and pin cards will not be coming to a financial institution near you if you're from the USA. This is simply today's reality.

I hope finally we can put all this behind us and try to understand just what is going on and not be nasty to each other. Life is too short for that.

Robert2533, if I were looking for a US issued credit card today I would go for the Chase Marriott Black Visa.
http://creditcardforum.com/rewards/1...ut-seeing.html

I believe that 'elite' cards are more likely to go to chip and pin based on the pressure their users will exert.

For now, chip and signature but a very good card nevertheless, it will still work in automated machines leaving only the odd reluctant store clerk who won't take it. Besides the hotel rewards it has concierge service which I have on another card and have found invaluable several times; auto rental CDW always good to have; no exchange loading which is of course a must for a traveller.

https://www.rewards-insiders.marriott.com/thread/11314

Xyz123, re "but is it absolutely necessary today for travel?". I would answer that yes, it is becoming more so every year.

Again, what the majority of Americans who don't travel internationally do is irrelevant, this is a travel forum and so the topic should be discussed from that point of view.

Perhaps those who take the typical one vacation a year can accept putting up with the hassle of being with a chip card but anyone who travels frequently or for extended periods of time will quickly become very unhappy with their old swipe and signature cards.

US fraud rate looks like higher than the average and getting worse.

The article claims <i>The United States accounts for more than 47 percent of global credit card fraud, while generating only 24 percent of card spending, according to the Nilson Report. ... The U.S. is the only world region where counterfeit fraud continues to rise... The absence of this chip technology at the physical point of sale is a large contributing factor. </i>

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/20/te...pper-data.html

So much for the "US banks claim fraud is not a large problem in the USA" smoke screen argument.

Do the US banks support paywave for small purchases?

Peter...hardly at all. It hasn't caught on here.

Greg...While it is true that the USA does lead the eague or as the Brits might say the table in card is present fraud, it still represents only a small part of their profits from credit cards. The problem is, of course, that when visitors from overseas come here to take advantage of the lower prices for almost everything we offer, their cards must use the magnetic strips they continue to have on many of their cards and are subject to the same cloning of cards as are Americans. Interestingly enough, 40 million credit card numbers were recently stolen from Target, a large discount chain found all over the USA. Once again, some pointed out that chip and pin cards would make such thefts nowhere near as profitable to the vermin doing it. However, while clearly much more secure, chip and pin cards have been compromised in the past and the question then becomes the banks are so sure of themselves that they at first denied the cards were used fraudulently, blamed the cardholders for not keeping their pin private and gave them a hard time regarding the liability issues. I don't argue chip and pin is much more secure but not perfect and of course, the credit card theft rings probably already have contigency plans to steal credit card numbers if the USA ever adopts chip and pin; something that remains a long way off.

Well, maybe people won't be using credit cards so much in the U.S. According to yesterday's NYT, merchants will now be allowed to tack on a fee for use of cards, thus giving us a two-tier price for goods. Put Amex in the search box and the article will come up. This does not only pertain to Amexco cards but also to Visa, Mastercard, whatever. It's a return to cash, folks.

Nothing new here. Several years ago, mc/visa merchant agreements in the USA prohibited merchants from either setting minimum purchase requirements or surcharging credit card sales. But then in a totally in a banking bill, Congress passed prohibitions on credit cards from enforcing these pro consumer policies. Merchants were allowed to set a minimum $10 purchase requirement and allowed to surcharge credit card purchases.

However many states such as New York had laws prohibiting credit card surcharges. But this did not deter some large companies from finding ways around the various state laws. So they called their illegal surcharges discounts for cash. Some day, somebody will explain to me the difference. I mean if a gas station puts up a sign saying $3.79 a gallon for cash and $3.89 for a credit card. So it is a 10¢ discount for paying cash? Or a 10¢ surcharge for using a credit card?

To be truthful about it, very few merchants in the USA have instituted surcharges for mc/visa. Also Amex has had a non discriminatory cluase in its merchants agreements. So this really doesn't change anything very much.

Bedar, yesterday's NYT is behind the times by a fair bit. The right to add a surcharge has been available to US merchants for some time now.

For small 'mom and pop' stores or a gas station, it might make some sense since they operate on very small margins. I am not aware of any of the larger companies however who are charging a surcharge.

Don't plan on going back to a cash society any time soon. In the meantime, American comsumers are subject to ever increasing fraudulent credit card transactions while the rest of the world is not. You figure out who is getting the worst deal.

My daughter had her card cloned in the US.
Luckily, her bank noticed a few redneck type purchases including a pick-up truck.
She didn't lose out by it, thank goodness

" her bank noticed a few redneck type purchases including a pick-up truck" Now that's a broad stroke of the brush. If you have a pickup truck you're a redneck? Not too biased now, are we?

MissPrism may not realize the VAST number of pickups in the USA. Not a thing about having a pickup indicates redneck. Most pick up owners have never been south of the Mason Dixon line nor live in backwoods areas.

Maybe most who live NORTH of the Mason Dixon line don't know a thing about false logic.

John wears a hat, John is a man, therefore all men wear hats. False logic.

John has a pick up, John is a red neck, therefore all men with a pick up are red necks. False logic.

I don't see where MissPrism implied all men with a pick up are red necks. What she implied is that red necks OFTEN drive pickups. Perfectly logical on HER part.

Anyone suggesting MissPrism said all pick up drivers are red necks is using false logic and YOU are the ones who need to be corrected.

False logic? Relax, have some (natural) honey in your tea, sit in front of the fire and mellow out!

>>a few redneck type purchases including a pick-up truck.<<

Definitely indicates MissPrism thinks a pick up truck is a display of red neck-ism. Otherwise why even mention it???? Since she lives in the UK - that might be a logical assumption.

>>I don't see where MissPrism implied all men with a pick up are red necks.<<

She didn't mention MEN at all. So maybe it is YOU are the one who needs correcting.

Forgive me for having a little chortle at the last few messages.
Dulci, I have to dredge though the untidy filing cabinet of my memory. Isn't the fallacy, you demonstrate an undistributed middle?

Anyway, we have somebody who is using a young woman's credit card, potentially robbing her of thousands of pounds.
A bank official's word "red-neck" seems pretty mild to me.
Thank goodness, the incongruity of the purchases was noticed.

To return to our moutons. If the malefactor, whatever the colour or cleanliness of his/her neck had been asked for a PIN, it might have been more difficult for them.

We all agree on your last statement. However don't think for one second that the vermin running these credit card theft rings are incapable of cloning chip and pin cards also' it's more or less right now there is no need to as there are plenty of credit card numbers available from those countries not using chip and pin (I can think of one). But and it's a big but to some degree, from what I've read, when a chip and pin card is compromised, the banks all along have been assuming the cardholders have been careless with their pins and put up a big resistance. With the magnetic strip cards, in general they do recognize fraud right away and do eat or at least the cardholder doesn't eat the fraudulent charges without all that much of a hassle.

In a way, and this applies to everybody caught in this thing, credit card fraud while traumatic is not all that difficult to deal with; a few phone calls. The biggest inconvenience is notifying your payee of the new card number but then again when a new card is issued with a changed expiration date or changed ccv number you have to do the same thing too. As long as they don't steal your identity, just try to deal with and while I've been victimized by this 3 or 4 times in my life, I don't lay awake at night fearing it might happen.

My only personal experience of card fraud is when my card was used to buy mail-order t-shirts in California while I was at home in the U.K. However, our local fuel station experienced fraud with the connivance of the staff, and the cards were used somewhere in the far east.

It was fairly simple to show that a group of chip & pin cards used at a particular place in the U.K. had then been used on a different continent, and that there was no way the individual card holders were to blame.

Chip & pin is not completely crime-proof, but the amount of crime is less, and the type of crime is different. It was also simple to identify those likely to be involved.

Well the rules/laws vary by country but generally speaking xyx123, the remain the same from the consumer's viewpoint. Liable for nothing if the card is used fraudulently.

Banks have argued that if a chip and pin card was successfully used for fraud then you must have been negligent in protecting your PIN. Indeed, some people have been negligent and should be liable.

But you already have that same issue with your debit/ATM cards for which you already use a PIN.

The BIG difference in liability is to the merchant. This same shift of liability is coming to the USA in 2015. What that means is if a merchant is presented with a chip card by a customer and does not use a chip enabled card reader, the merchant is liable, not Visa, not the customer.

Clearly, that will mean merchants will have to buy a card reader that can read chips as they will not want to accept liability. So when I visit the USA and use a chip card, I will have MORE protection against fraud than an American customer using a swipe and signature card. Does it seemm 'right' that a foreigner has more protection in the USA than a citizen? You have to laugh at that.

A comment I find telling is that you have been 'victimized by this 3 or 4 times in my life'. I have NEVER been a victim of credit card fraud in my life. The only signifigant difference I can see between us is you spend the majority of your time in the USA and I do not.

Since the USA has the highest number of credit card frauds, it makes sense you are more likely to be a victim of it. But it also would seem to me to make sense that you (Americans) should be the most agressive in trying to find ways to prevent it for that same reason.

Chip and Pin does not stop all possibility of credit card fraud but it reduces it considerably. The pros will find ways but the guy who steals your wallet won't get anywhere with your cards. You could say it is another example of false logic if someone is going to try and say, if it doesn't stop ALL fraudulent use then why bother.

MissPrism, yes, you could call it an undistributed middle or you could call it false logic which is what an undistributed middle results in. But let's tell it like it is, 90% of all Americans are Red Necks anyway, they just don't think they are. ;-)

You make it seem that I am not in favor of chip and pin; actually I am. BTW, twice I was "cloned" in Europe but admitedly that was before chip and pin so again you misinterpret my feeling on the matter; I just used the example to allay fears that credit card fraud is something that can cause a great amount of damage as opposed to identity theft (and there are many who don't get the big big difference; it is that reason why I refuse to show ID in accordance with visa/mc regs when making a credit card purchase, something the USA merchant agreements prohibit btw and something that makes me wonder why people invalidate their credit cards by writing check id on the signature panels although few merchants in the USA except for large purchases check signatures anyway although they do in the UK).

Maybe the Target thing will get the banks off their rear ends on this although I doubt it. And again, while card is present card fraud is indeed much more likely to happen in America, no sane person will argue that, chip and pin does next to nothing to prevent online fraud which is the greatest source by far of credit card fraud today.

But I repeat as clearly as I can. I am a proponent of chip and pin so your continual arguing with me is preaching to the choir. Personally, I'm in favor of retinal scan. How do you feel about those? <g?

No, I don't misinterpret your remarks xyz123, I'm sure you are in favour of chip and pin cards. But I do think readers who wish to bury their head in the sand so to speak will misinterpret your remarks as justification for their viewpoint.

I have no problem with retinal scan or fingerprinting as a means of identification at all xyz123. Personally though I favour a chip inplant just under the skin. Done once for life. ;-)