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Robert2533 Dec 14th, 2013 06:48 AM

Chip & Pin Only
We encountered the "chip & pin only" situation in a phone store near Brown Thomas in Dublin. The store was not set up to accept a swiped credit card, or even one with the "chip and signature". This is a situation wherein this merchant ends up loosing business while stores like Brown Thomas have no problem in accepting swipe or pin and signature cards. Yes, I could have used cash, but with the economy being what it is, one would thing that every merchant would readily accept the credit cards of visitors looking to spend a little money.

And we know that the credit card situation is not going to change for visitors from the USA any time soon.

So far we haven't encountered any problem using a swipe card at restaurants.

Tony2phones Dec 14th, 2013 07:11 AM

Name and Shame !! In this day and age there are card readers capable of popping into an Android or Smartphone... simple.. You would think a phone store particularly would be up on this... That said there is also the phoneswipe system which is unique to the USA.

hetismij2 Dec 14th, 2013 07:20 AM

Sorry but why should a retailer be expected to handle swipe cards or chip and signature cards? Your custom is probably a negligible amount of their turn over, but the cost of retaining a system to deal with it probably isn't.
It is something Americans visiting Europe, and other parts of the world will just have to get used to.
Instead of complaining here complain to your credit card provider. Why should the rest of the world have to accept your ancient, fraud sensitive system?

flpab Dec 14th, 2013 07:28 AM

Andrews federal credit union, we have had ours for two years.

bilboburgler Dec 14th, 2013 07:34 AM

US needs to bring its banking system up to date.

Padraig Dec 14th, 2013 08:08 AM

I think the fact that it is a phone store is telling. Steal a bag, and you might get both a phone and a card.

dulciusexasperis Dec 14th, 2013 08:24 AM

Your premise makes no sense. Would you expect stores everywhere to accept US dollars? Some people actually think that way. Why stop at they should accept your credit card?

When you travel, the onus is on YOU to know what is acceptable and be prepared to deal with businesses in the way they are prepared to deal with you.

If someone plans to travel, they need to know how to handle their money in the countries they plan to visit. Today, in much of the world, that means having a 'chip and pin' card.

But ignore all that and let's go for the bottom line Robert. If it had been something necessary that you had to buy, it is YOU who would have had the problem, not the store.

When you find yourself at an automated fuel pump which accepts only chip and pin and there is no live attendant on a Sunday morning to even take your cash, tell me how suggesting they will lose your business is going to work for you.

Unfortunately for US travellers, you are right when you say, "And we know that the credit card situation is not going to change for visitors from the USA any time soon."

That means US travellers have a problem.

chartley Dec 14th, 2013 09:02 AM

It is quite possible that the highest level of fraud can be found at shops selling phones and phone accessories. It has only been when I have bought a new phone that my bank has phoned me afterwards to check that it was me that carried out the transaction.

A Chip & pin transaction is much more secure than one involving a swipe card.

TPaxe Dec 14th, 2013 09:25 AM

Swipe cards are very outdated and so prone to fraud. If I were a business, I wouldn't accept them. Chip and pin cards have been around for many years (at least 25 years I have had one) and amazed the US banking system hasn't started using these a long time ago.

AJPeabody Dec 14th, 2013 09:26 AM

Chip and pin in the USA is analogous to swipe in automated Europe: Non-standard, low volume, so why bother. The overwhelming majority of US cardholders would never ever need a chip and pin card.

The solution: Someone with the will and the capital should start a chip and pin company in the US. For a fee, they would sell you a chip and pin card that would forward charges to the US credit card or bank of your choice or that would be loaded with credit for a trip.

Another solution: A credit card company that has significant foreign charges from US customers might want to offer chip and pin to its customers.

If anyone has connections to either such sources, start talking it up. Who knows what can happen if money can be made.

janisj Dec 14th, 2013 09:34 AM

The vast majority of Americans don't have passports, let alone travel to 'chip & PIN' countries. And a large % of those who do have passports only travel to the Caribbean or Canada.

So there is no groundswell screaming for chip/PIN cards. Only here on fodors :)

Someday we may all get converted to chip/PIN, but the cost to do it mainly for the benefit of a few world travelers will be enormous. So while I hope it happens soon, more likely it is years in the future.

TPaxe Dec 14th, 2013 09:50 AM

Chip and Pin cards are not only for travellers. Locals use them too. It's just that a vast marjority of the world has moved on with new technology as they USED to have the old swipe cards, but they are now obsolete.

The old swipe cards are easy to fraud costing millions in insurance which ends up with our high bank charges.

Americans can use Chip and Pin cards as their every day credit and debit cards in their own counry. Not sure why the system is so behind.

dulciusexasperis Dec 14th, 2013 09:56 AM

Some misconceptions?

Chip and pin cards DO exist in the USA, they are just not available from ALL card issuers, only about 1% of current USA credit cards are chip and pin but they ARE available from around 50 issuers.

Second, it is not simply to benefit world travellers that the USA will have to switch. The big issue is credit card fraud, DOMESTIC credit card fraud.

The change is definitely coming to the USA out of necessity so stop trying to justify why it isn't needed in the USA, it's needed and it's coming.

The USA is simply behind the times in this regard, just accept that and get yourself a chip and pin card.

janisj Dec 14th, 2013 10:38 AM

Get off your bleeding' high horse. I'm not justifying anything. I am simply explaining a big reason why most Americans don't care and why it will likely be quite a long time til we see them here. Heck, a fairly large minority of Americans don't even use debit cards.

TDudette Dec 14th, 2013 11:24 AM

No bickering please.

Is an American debit card a chip and pin card?

Keep at your card companies if you don't have it. Good link, dulciusexasperis. Of the ones I own, only AmEx said theirs was chip & pin. Didn't get a chance to try it out though but will let you know in April 2014 how it goes.

hetismij2 Dec 14th, 2013 11:42 AM

It is a shame that the credit card least accepted in Europe, AE is the one most likely to be chip and pin.

It won't be long before banks in Europe leave off the magnetic strip. People visiting the US will have to ask for a separate card. I can't see why US banks can't offer a chip and pin card for those who do travel outside the US. Even if they charge abit for it. The cards exist, with both chip and strip, they don't need to reinvent the wheel.

Tony2phones Dec 14th, 2013 11:48 AM

Amex is NOT widely accepted in Ireland.. this whole thread has a negative edge... US non C&P cards of the Visa and Mastercard varieties are widely accepted and it is quite possible that the person serving in the shop had not been shown the process for taking a payment without the pin,, That said I will take offence when folk imply that the Irish economy is struggling so we should be grateful for any transaction.. we have not sold all our gold to put on a false face.. see the UK for that one.

Jim_Tardio Dec 14th, 2013 01:34 PM

What's the big deal? Just get a card with the chip. I use a British Air Visa. It has a chip, no foreign transaction fees and I get mileage. They have a version without the annual fee if you want less miles.

xyz123 Dec 14th, 2013 02:28 PM

There are several issues here which have been discussed on many threads and especially on a forum by flyertalk where there is a 135 page and growing thread on emv (chip) cards. But I will try to respond to some of this.

1. Almost all the terminals in Europe are capable of taking swipe cards although a few newer ones don't. While it is possible this merchant has a terminal not capable of taking a swipe card, there is no reason the terminal will not take a chip and signature card which is processed the same as a chip and pin except at the very end of the transaction when a receipt is printed. The merchant has no way of knowing when a US card is presented which has the emv chip is chip and pin or chip and signature. So it's the merchant's misbelief, and it is a myth, that a chip and signature card establishes greater liability on the merchant's part as when the countries went to chip and pin it was re-enforced to the merchants that they myst not bypass the chkp and pin function or else the liability is theirs.

2. Somebody brought up the Andrews card. While the Andrews card (as well as State Department and Pentagon_ FCU's do provide for chip and pin coverage in most (but not all) unpersonneled situations (they work sometimes and sometimes don't), the default at a personneled pos terminal is chip and signature. Thus in this case, if the merchant adamantly refuses to take chip and signature, even with the Andrews and the other FCU cards, the customer would be out of luck. There ia no way to force the Andrews card to be a chip and pin card in those situations and there have been a number of reports of merchants refusing to complete the transaction (the transaction does go through but it's the merchant who voids the transaction once and only after a receipt is printed and the terminal indicates signature required).

3. The vast vast majority of US issued cards with emv chips are chip and signature. Period. All Chase cards with an emv chip, all Citibank cards with an emv chip, all Bank of America cards with an emv chip are chip and signature. Period.

4. As far as I know, the only bank that issues a true chip and pin card in the USA today is USAA and then only for their mastercard and then only upon request. However, one has to have some connection to the US Armed Forces to be eligible for a USAA card (this is a change from years ago when I joined USAA and acquired their credit card). I have the USAA chip and pn mastercard and indeed it is a true chip and pin card (unli8ke the Andrews and other FCU cards referred to above). However, it comes with an asinine foreign transaction fee of 1% (less than the foreign transaction fees of 3% of the other banks although Citibank and Chase premium cards with high annual fees issue some cards with no foreign transaction fee. Bank of America has a card, the travel rewards card, with no annual fee and no foreign transaction fee but as noted it's chip and signature not chip and pin).

5. Many of the Amex cards issued in the USA are available with emv chips but they are all, as of now, chip and signature.

6. According to mastercard/visa, if this is worth anything, the merchant is in violation of his or her merchant's agreement as they are required to take any valid mastercard or visa card. Getting this enforced is, however, another matter.

7. There is no real reason why US banks do not issue chip and pin cards except they cite the huge cost of converting all the terminals and as noted how many Americans travel outside the USA? They could of course issue the cards with both emv chips capable of true chip and pin as well as the magnetic strip but that would be costly. As far as fraud, the US banks claim fraud is not a large problem in the USA as they are making zillions on their credit card operations and the fraud from card is present transactions is only a small cost of doing business. US liability laws for the most part do protect consumers and the vast majority of fraud takes place on line in any event which chip and pin really cannot prevent as readilly as card is present transactions.

8. But remember, the USA is very contrary minded in so many ways, some very important some trivial. Of course the USA is one of only three countries which has refused to embrace the metric system, has continued to print $1 bank notes instead of producing a smart looking $1 coin which would save the US Treasury millions each year, refuses to print its bank notes in different colors and sizes to help out visually impaired people, refuses to do something about its idiotic gun laws, refuses th meet the needs of the populace with a single payer health system unlike every other civilized country in the world, uses different frequencies for its cell phones, retains the barbaric practice of capital punishment. So why should we join the rest of the world with chip and pin cards? In the scheme of things, this is trivial except if you'rre the poor person needing gasoline on a Sunday afternoon in France and trying to tell the fuel pump that mastercard/visa require you to take magnetic strip cards. I wonder what they pump would say back!

janisj Dec 14th, 2013 02:40 PM

Thank you xyz. I keep trying to explain (on various threads) that their US-issued chip cards they insist are chip and PIN are most likely chip and signature. (There are not 50 issuers of chip & PIN cards . . . )

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