Chip and pin credit cards
 

Greetings all. I've been reading about changing dollars/banking/ATMs, etc., and see that a lot of advice is to use credit cards. I've always done so with ease in the past, but haven't done a lot of traveling since the chip and pin issue with credit cards. My questions: are the US cards (without chip and pin) still readily usable in Europe? Do European businesses (esp hotels and restaurants) still disdain American Express cards (my choice)? Thanks!

Where there is human operator, such as shop staff, waiter/waitress etc, using your cards shouldn't be a problem, as their terminal have a facility to swipe as well as read the chip. In some isolated situations, staff may not be familiar with the procedure but getting a manager/supervisor usually solves the issue. Where you may encounter problems is in automatic, unmanned vending machines such as ticket machines, fuel pumps etc. So far, all ATMs accept both types of cards so you should get your cash no problem.

As for preference for Visa/Master over Amex/Diners (Discover isn't accepted, except at some US consulates for their services, US military bases etc), yes it's still generally true, but you shouldn't have an issue in higher-end hotels, restaurants and stores. I too like using my Amex card here in UK (because it gives higher cashback), and I can use in all mainstream supermarkets, car rental desks and large national chains, but at more modest establishments, bargain stores and B&Bs, it's often Visa/Master only or they are preferred, because of higher handling fees charged by Amex/Diners to retailers and service establishments. Of the countries you cite, France shows distinct preference for Visa/Master (because it's handled by Carte Blue, national debit card network). In other three, Amex should be nearly as well as accepted as Visa/Master, but in Germany, credit card acceptance is generally lower (it's still a largely cash society) and some smaller/rural establishments don't take any plastic at all or only the local debit card (EC Karte, affiliated with Maestro).

American Express is more widely accepted now, but definitely not as accepted as visa or MasterCard. You will have no problem using it at large chain or higher end hotels and restaurants but may have trouble at locally owned, smaller places.

Merchants are paying 0.60-0.75% commission in France for accepting Visa and MasterCard but they are paying 3-4% to accept American Express. That should adequately explain why a lot of shops do not accept Amex.

Because we had problems last year in Spain and France when trying to use our credit cards at machines selling train tickets, etc, I contacted Citibank and we were just issued a new card with the chip. Now we should be trouble-free in France in July. There was no extra charge, and the new card has the same number as the old one.

Anyone familiar with "cashpassport"? It's supposed to have the chip/pin thing and works basically like a debit card?

The cash passport is a Travelex product. If you google, you will find lots of opinions about it - mostly about the costs involved and difficulties with using it.

http://www.cashpassport.com/1/Global...imits_chip.pdf

Out of curiosity, I looked up the cash passport to see what the fees are. They are different depending on what your home currency is, but for Americans, here is the summary:

$7-12 to get the card
$5 each time you load it
$2-3 per ATM withdrawal
$2.50/month fee

THEN, as if these fees weren't steep enough, the exchange rate for merchant transactions and ATM withdrawals is the interbank exchange rate plus 5.5%.

Can you say "highway robbery"? LOL.

Even before I got to the section about fees though, it was pretty obvious from the wording of the information on the site that this was not going to be a good deal for the consumer. Lots of talk about security, convenience, peace of mind, avoiding hassles, etc. The term "peace of mind" is always a red flag because it basically means "open your wallet".

Recently returned from trip to England and France. For atm used Schwab debit. For credit card used Chase chip and signature card. No fees and easily used.

I talked with Citibank yesterday about chip and pin cards, and was told that they only have chip and signature. Do chip and signature cards work in machines? I would have thought not.

Do chip and signature cards work in machines?

Yes

We just returned from two weeks in France, and immediately before that my husband spent two weeks in Germany. Our last trip to Europe was four years ago. We encountered more problems with the chip/swipe issue this time than on any previous trip. My husband was staying near Dresden and said there were a very limited number of places that would take a card that had to be swiped.

In France I knew there would be problems with certain machines (ticket machines, automated gas stations) and so we used ticket windows and gas stations with attendants. Even so, at one Carrefour gas station we were informed by the attendant that she could not "swipe" our card, that she only had a machine that read cards with chips. The important thing is the chip. We also ran into several restaurants where the staff informed us that they could not "swipe" a card. That may or not be absolutely true, but we did not think it worth fighting over; we just asked before we sat down.

As far as getting cash goes, we used our regular ATM debit card (which has a VISA logo) and easily withdrew cash from a regular bank machine.

Chip and signature cards do not work in ALL machines by any means.

In my experience, ours worked in ticket machines (Metro, SNCF) with neither PIN nor signature required.

It was accepted in grocery stores and other shops that would not accept a card that has to be swiped. In these cases, a signature was required.

It worked in one autoroute but not on another. (Autoroutes have different management companies.)

It never worked in a fuel pump anywhere we tried.

We have a PIN for our card and I had to use it in the machine in two parking garages. The PIN was never requested in any other case that I remember.

Our card is a US Bank Flexperks card. Recently some Fodorites have acquired a card that may turn out to be more reliably accepted. It will be interesting to hear how it works out for them.

We did not have any problems at all with no chip card but did not try to use machines where I knew it would not work. Upon our return to US I received a new card from US Bank Flexperks with the chip. They are now rolling them out...not sure on what priority level but eventually all will be replaced.

The basic problem, as some of you have noted, is that Europe has migrated its cards away from "magnetic stripe" to "chip and pin" using the EMV standard. What you need nowadays in Europe, particularly with smaller vendors and automatic kiosks, like in train stations, is EMV-compatible chip-and-pin cards. Right now, these are only offered by two U.S. issuers: U.S. Bancorp (Travel Flex Rewards) and Wells Fargo. Since Wells Fargo is providing these cards, for now, ony to its most affluent accounts, the best bet is to get a Travel Flex card from U.S. Bank. I used one in Italy in May and found it a big help. One caveat: when you order the Travel Flex card, be sure you also get the company to send you the PIN number by mail (they won't do that unless you specifically request it). Chip and pin doesn't usually work without the PIN. One other alternative is the Travelex prepaid chip and pin which can be purchased at any U.S. international airport and loaded with a set amount of euros. You can also top up the card via an online account while in Europe. But that's a bit of a hassle so I think the best best is to get a Travel Flex card that can function as a true credit card in Europe.

Ken...I'm afraid your information is very much dated. Chase and Citi issue some of their cards with emv chips. Almost all of those cards have annual fees and many, but not all, charge a 3% foreign transaction fee. Within this past month, Bank of America began issuing many of its line of credit cards with emv chips. Perhaps the best is their new Travel Rewards card. No annual fee. No foreign transaction fee. Wells Fargo has apparently moved up its timeline in response to Bank of America and has said it will be issuing emv chipped cards n the near future if not already.

Andrews FCU has been issuing emv cards for a while. Again no annual fee but a 1% foreign transaction fee.

However, note that with the exception of the Andrews FCU, all these emv cards (don't know about Wells Fargo) are chip and signature cards, not chip and pin. The Andrews card defaults as a chip and signature card but claims and it has been verified that wherfe necessary it will be chip and pin.

The chip and signature cards do seem to work fine in manned and womanned locations. There have been mixed reports about unmanned and unwomanned kosks. Note that many of the American cards that are chip and signature do issue pins but those pins are only used if you make cash advances through atm's. They are not required for transactions. Some have reported using a chip and signature card and being asked for a pin and entering that pin to complete the transaction. Others have indicated that in those cases, any 4 digit number will do.

This is the latest information as of today. Who knows what's gong to happen tomorrow. I think Cap One is gong to have to look into its policies as much of its credit card portfolio was built up on its claim to be the only major US bank to issue credit cards without a foreign transaction fee. More and more cards are being issued sans foreign transaction fees and I suspect within the near future, we will have an annoucement by Capital One they will be issueing emv chipped cards but that is simply a guess.

I'm xyz123 and I approved this message.

Where did you get the information that "much" of Capital One's "credit card portfolio" was based on its claim to be the only major US bank .... etc. I have never even noticed any advertising from Capital One talking about the fact that they don't have a foreign transcation fee, nor ever saw them make any statement that they are the only major bank to have that. I'll bet most of the people having a Cap One card never go outside the US and don't even know about it. If you go onto the Cap One website in the CC section, you don't even see that mentioned (you have to pull up and read the fine print on any card you are considering). Even in the main blurb on their reward Venture card which gives miles, they don't mention that in the main description.

Folks on Fodors may talk about this, but I don't think that's a good representation of most of the US, and I've never seen any information claiming the bulk of their credit card business is based upon that one fact, nor that they have ever tried to get business by making such claims.

I said I had no proof of this of course but not only here but on almost all travel boards over the years when discussing the use of credit cards overseas, the name Capital One came up. I agree recently they have not particlarly advertised about it but they haven't really pushed their credit card either. Most of their advertising that I have seen deals with banking issues but let's put it this way. Until the latest round of dropping ftf's began, and it is a fairly recernt development, once MBNA was merged into FIA which is a wholly owned subsidiary of Bank of America and the usual 3% ftf added to most of their cards, they were the only one. Why didn't they drop the no foreign transaction fee at that point? I mean it was costing them money. One would have to think, and you're welcome to disagree, that their bean counters did some sort of survey to find how many people kept Capital One cards and used them because of the no ftf policy.

Also people who travel tend to be somewhat more affluent. Logically we would have to see that part of their portfolio is due to the no ftf. Wouldn't that make sense?

But I admit, I have no inside info on this. This is my logical conclusion rightly or wrongly.

OAside from the no ftf, Capital One does not have a stellar reputatin for customer service). If I'm wrong, I'm wrong but I athink it's a reasonable deduction.

I'm xyz123 and I approved this message.

In Germany, you don't need chip and pin.
Most sales points or restaurants have chip and pin readers, but if you don't have a chip and pin credit card they can also swipe it thru those card readers.
Ticket machines that take cc like for long distance trains don't require a pin.

I just returned from a trip to Germany and can say that we didn't have any trouble using our debit/credit cards except for the last day when we tried to pay for a cab to the airport. The taxi operator's machine wouldn't accept our swipe card so we had to go to an ATM and get cash.

Regardless of the type of card, our experience was that using cards usually incurred some type of fee with our bank so my recommendation is to obtain enough cash for a few days (whatever amount you feel comfortable with) and minimize the use of cards to avoid fees from foreign institutions as well as your own bank.

Fees? There are all sorts of fees. It would be helpful to be more specific of what fees you are talking about. Many banks indeed charge a 3% fee for foreign transactons whether done in the local currency or by dynamic currency conversion into US dollars (assuming you're American). There are many banks which do not have this fee. In any event, some banks charge 3% on ATM withdrawals in foreign currency, others do not. It is an individual bank matter. Even if you are silly enough to use a credit card from a bank that charges the 3%, you still do far better using a credit card than exchanging cash (if you use an ATM card from a bank that does not charge a foreign urrency transaction fee, you could do better with cash). Get a credit card, almost all cards from Capital One do not have this fee, with no foreign transaction fees and no annual fee. There are more and more out there.

To the best of my knowledge, at least at the present time, Wesdtern European countries do not sually surcharge credit card transactions (although there might be exceptions).

I'm xyz123 and I approved this message.

We have the Andrews chip and pin. I have never had a problem with any atm or credit cards till this last trip. My atm card would not give me any money in France. It was a Kennedy SCFCU card that I have used everywhere. My husband had the same problem and he took money out on his credit card to get us by. As soon as we hit the UK out pops money. I had tried that card in 10 machines and really needed pounds as I had brought zip with me. I was so happy when the machine gave me money. I was so thankful I had brought enough euros to pay the apartment balance. It was so weird. The worst part was at Monoprix, I had gone shopping without the husband and never thought my credit card wouldn't work there but it didn't. The girl at the counter just didn't understand anything but chip and pin so paid her in cash. The chip and pin worked great but I like having cash!

flpah...I get it about needing cash for the apartment. No criticism there. You said your Andrews card worked fine. So what is the probglem with using it everywhere it is taken. As I've said, I don't get the advantage of paying cash, especially when travelling. I understand the reluctance of some places in Paris to take credit cards and that often there might be minimum purchase requirements but since you have apparently more than one credit card (from my reading of the post a swipe card as well ass the Andrews card), why not use them? And in London, acceptance of credit cards is almost universal.

Again, I am not being critical. You are entitled to do thnghs the way you prefer. But call me whatever you wish. Why not use the credit cards everywhere they're taken and not have to worry about taking cash from an ATM. As I said, I spent a week in London last month. Made a £20 ATMand came home with £8.50.....£7.50 for various visits to an internet cafre each morning and a pint in a pub....other than that every other purchase I made in London from re-filling my oyster card, buying theatre tickets, lunch and dinner, snacks for half time at the theatre, topping up my mobile phone, the hotel bill was done with my credit card....a credit card with no foreign transaction fee and a 1% cash rebate to boot (some of the purchases were from groceries and I got 2% on those). As I've said, I just don't get the reluctance to use credit cards. I really wish I could understand the psyche behind it.

But I'm not being critical. If that is the way you prefer to travel, who am I to say you're wrong!

I'm xyz123 and I approved this message.

Here's how it went for us. When we used our debit card at an ATM we were charged a $5.00 fee as well as an "international transaction fee." If we used an ATM at a partner bank of our home bank, there was no $5.00 fee.

When we used our credit card to pay for purchases we were charged the "international transaction fee." I didn't determine what the percentage rate for each purchase was but for most things is was under $2.00 each. The fee for something more expensive like lodging or car rental was closer to $10.00.

In total, we ended up spending about $30 in debit card fees and about $15.00 in credit card fees.

So while using the credit and debit cards worked for us, it would have saved us some money to use the debit card to obtain local currency and use that as the primary funding source.

Most of us who travel more often use ATM/debit cards that charge no transaction fee and no or minimal conversion rate. Ditto for credit cards. I have an account at a credit union which I use only for travel. I deposit travel money before I go on a trip. The credit card and the debit card from this credit union charge a conversion fee of 1% over the interbank rate. No transaction fee.

As for cash vs. credit cards, it depends on where you travel. We're just back from Istanbul and Greece, both places where cash was preferred at many establishments.

We just returned from Germany and Austria last week. We only had one time that our card would not work. Mine wouldn't but my Brother-in-laws would. Same company so don't know the reason. We used a Visa credit card and a debit card from my bank. We tried to have 2-300 Euros at a time. Some places did not take any credit or debit cards so you want some cash with you. All of the machines we saw were swipe machines. They want American money so they will accomodate our cards until we switch our system. In another year or so it won't be an issue.

One thing that was different to get used to was the 1 and 2 euro coins. I hardly ever carry coins with me in the US. I carry my cards and cash in a front pocket money clip wallet. Next time I will take some kind of coin pocket for all the coins.

Lots of replies - for which I thank everyone. I used my cards (no chip, no pin) to make reservations without a problem. At hotels (France, Italy), they took the card (AMX) and had no problem. One hotel didn't even take the card, just somehow managed to bill the room to the card. The gas stations on the autobahn/strade had no problem with MC or Visa w/o chip/pin. However, in Denmark we had some real difficulty, esp at unmanned gas stations. The solution, we found, was our bank ATM/debit cards. Since this has a pin, it worked. Not a charge, a debit, but what the heck we got the gas. I also used the debit card on the ferry from Denmark (okay, look, I HAD to have the handbag - it was just what I was looking for, so at 100 Euro, it was a real deal - buttery leather). But they couldn't take my credit card at that shop - no chip/pin. So it seems that debit cards might be a solution. Thanks all for input.

I just got a new us bank flex perks card with a chip. Curious what PIN number GGMaine and others are talking about using with it. Only pin I will have is the one to use for cash advance that they will send me. I will probably immediately change that to something I can remember. Is that the PIN to plug in if prompted?
Just had a friend in Paris have zero success with this buying an RER ticket at CDG....

sndtw....I believe but am not completely sure that the card you received as is typical of most of the emv chip cards being issued by the US banks is chip and signature not chip and pin. To the best of my knowledge, only Andrews FCU and State Department FCU are issuing credit cards that are used as chip and pin where their default method, chip and signature doesn't work.

For some reason, as I said, the US banks have chosen to stick their big toe in the water of emv chips with chip and signature. That means you stick it in the chip reader of the pos terminal but instead of asking you for your pin, it spits out a receipt exactly the same as an archaic American magnetic strip only card does, for you to sign. So in the normal course of events, it will not ask for a pin.

Now to understand, this is as bit of a controversial issue on some credit card blogs. My own experience in using my chipped cards in visits to Europe this past July is that every place I used the chip and signature card while it worked, it would have worked with a non chipped archaic magnetic strip card.

Now the question becomes what happ[ens at those places where magnetic strip cards are not accepted such as the bank racks in Paris, the automatic toll booths on the interstes oops autoroutes or autostradad or autobahns or unattended gasoline pumps on a Sunday in Franced. Here the results have been very very spotty and for the most opart the chip and signature cards have not been accepted but that answer is not universal. In some other cases, people have reported that pins were asked for and the cash advance pin worked although the US banks claim one thing has nothing to do with the other. Others claim you can enter any 4 digit number to serve as a pin with a chip and signature card and it will work.

Why the US banks went off in this direction is totally incomprehensible. I guess there was a lot of pressure coming from customers for emv chips and this was the response. But at least it's better than the response from Capital One, one of the more popular US credit cards for foreign travel as they charge no foreign transactin fee. When asked why Capital One has not issued any chip cards as of yet, customers are told that mechants are required by their merchants' agreement to accept all credit cards even their archaic outdated American magnetic strip cards. Try telling that to an automatic kiosk which has rejected your card!

The good news is that for the most part, in Western Europe most places where there are attendants will accept the American cards.....

sndtw - On the two occasions I was asked for a PIN, both in parking garages, I used the PIN US Bank gave me and it worked. Someone in one of these threads on this subject a while ago said any numbers would have worked, and maybe that's so - who knows?

As for your friend having no success buying RER tickets in Paris with this card, I would only say that our experience was that the card worked in ticket machines for Metro tickets in both Lyon and Paris, and Transilien tickets in Paris and Auvers-sur-Oise. We never bought RER tickets during our last trip.

While I believe that many have no difficulty using their magnetic strip cards, my experience was that when we were outside the usual tourist areas, it was likely to be refused in shops like those in the neighborhood of our apartment in the 11th. It was nice to have the chipped card to use in those instances.

<i>Just had a friend in Paris have zero success with this buying an RER ticket at CDG....</i>

Unless they are ripped out all of the new machines at Roissypol and in Termianl 2 station in recent weeks, this is one of the very few places in Paris where one may purchase RER or Métro tickets with a magnetic strip credit card.

xyz123, you sound like you're knowledgable in this credit card enthusiasm that we have found for world travelers of US origin.

I am also a frequent traveler and have used my Capital One (USA) card that has NO TRANSACTION FEES ever (as we know it) abroad and it works at favorable and upscale places of interest worldwide.

Please let us know when Capital One will come up with Chip & PIN cards, as I am really interested in that. Hope they will lead the way like they promise everyone in a witty manner about everything else (i-e: no annual fees, generous line of credit, perks and etc).

Andrews AFB has a true pin and chip (not pin and signature) credit card with no annual fees but it does pass along the Visa/MC currency conversion fee of 1%:

http://www.andrewsfcu.org/

The State Department FCU has a pin and chip card with no fees (no annual, no currency conversion, no transaction):

https://www.sdfcu.org/creditcards

Other banks have pin and signature cards with no transaction fees but most have high ($400) annual fees.

I'm surprised that MaineGG had trouble using a magnetic strip card anywhere in Paris. I don't stay in the tourist areas and I have no trouble using mine anywhere in Paris, small shops/cafes outside the tourist areas or not (I never stay in arr. 1-8, for example, and dine, shop and do other things in the non-touristy areas). I also was recently in Bordeaux and had no trouble using it there in nontouristy places. I just don't know what their problem was, it's not like this is some thing no one knows about (magnetic strip credit cards) but maybe those particular places literally never want to serve anyone other than local French people or just don't care enough to get the proper machine that allows them to swipe them. I even dined in very small family-run restaurants in the outer arrondisements and they all took mine.

<b>Correction: </b>Andrews no longer charges 1% for using either their chip and pin credit card, nor for using their ATM card (from banking account).

We got the Andrews GlobeTrek chip-and-pin card shortly before our trip to Italy last month and had no problems using it. But it always defaulted to chip-and-signature. We were too chicken to try it at an unattended kiosk to see what would happen if we *had* to use the pin (almost tried it at a card-only toll booth on the autostrade but decided to use the attendant booth instead!). So, it might not have been worth the effort to get the card. On the other hand, as Debit notes, there is no foreign transaction fee and also no annual fee. So it was a useful card to have! (Even though on the few occasions when we used one of our "regular" magnetic strip cards we had no problem.)

We are presently using the Andrews' cards (chip and pin and debit) in France. Have been here for a month and have used it successfully in machines for train tickets, tolls at unmanned booths, parking metered, unattended gas stations, purchases, and it has worked perfectly. It does default to signature a lot when there is a person, but works great with PIN in unattended situations.

It might be the Andrews card did have some teething problems at the beginning as the software and hardware had to mesh since in the beginning..........there were reports of difficulty with it but in recent times, almost al the reports have been that it works fine.l