Chateau or castle?
 

My justification for asking this question here is to improve the quality of information provided to English language speakers coming to France - or at least to the Dordogne.

Instead of running our village brochure through a translation site, and coming up with something illegible, our local village association asked me to translate it. I did, but they have come back with a question.

Carlux is built around the ruins of a 12th century chateau. Or at least that's what I always say, and that's what I wrote. But, my French friends said, 'Why dont you say 'castle?'

For some reason I have never thought of it as a 'castle', which to me brings to mind British castles. Because we are in France, I think of it as a 'chateau'. However, I've now been here 18 years, and am no longer a typical English speaker.

So, my question is, as someone visiting France, would you expect to find a brochure saying that we have a castle, or a chateau? My feeling is that everyone knows what a chateau is, but if people would prefer to see it described as a castle, we can change the wording. (I just checked Wikipedia, which says that 'The chateau de Beynac is a castle situated...)

Any preferences?

Carlux - what an interesting question.

honestly, i don't think it matters. Chateau has a certain cachet [excuse my french!] in english that castle doesn't, and Michelin clearly agree as their english language guide to the Loire is called "Chateaux of the Loire" not Castles. OTOH chateau is definitely a french word, whereas Castle isn't.

I'd use whichever you feel most comfortable with.

Both "chateau" and "castle" have the same root: the Latin "castellum", which became "castel" in old French and later "chateau".

The more educated English-speaking people will understand "chateau" which sounds a bit more cosmopolitan. For the less-educated ones, "castle" will be more understandable.

I would expect it to say château, but my perspective might be warped as well.

I have a skewed view from living in France for so long, but I think that such places should be known as a château as well, just as I always write "châteaux" for the plural while I often see people meaning well who pluralize it as "chateaus."

Nevertheless, I think that France has earned certain inalienable terminology rights for a number of its sites and while the term 'castle' does not raise my hackles in all cases ("Chambord is a beautiful castle" does not horrify me.), there are a certain number of other things that I have seen that I do find intolerable, such as "Mount Saint Michael" or "Strasburg."

I know that I am on shaky ground here, since when talking about Belgium, I prefer to write Bruges, Ypres or Ostende rather than Brugge, Ieper or Oostende -- but 'translating' city names is not quite the same as <b>not</b> translating the names of famous tourist sites such as the Vieux Port of Marseille or Sacré Coeur (Sacred Heart) in Paris.

If your audience is American tourists, castle probably does a better job of conjuring up what they are going to see in Carlux. I think that most Americans associate the term "castle" with an image of fortified defensive walls surrounding a central keep, whereas, the meaning of chateau is a little bit more ambiguous. Certainly, what you see in Carlux is different from the grand houses that you see in the Loire.

I spent a week last year in a house adjacent to the Chateau de Beynac, but whenever I showed photos of this site to my friends, they talk about how cool it must have been to stay next to a castle. Chateau in the American mind probably conjures up something more like Chambord.

I'm a perfect person to answer this as I'm an American and pretty much a rube when it comes to all things French.

I think of castle and château as interchangeable and would probably say "castle" (to another American) as to not sound as though I were putting on airs.

I think castle would be the correct translation, obviously, but in fact, I think most people know the word chateau and are kind of expecting it in France. So I think leaving that word in the French is fine.

I agree with the Chateau voters. I think if someone is traveling from an Anglophone country to France, they will have either heard of Chateaux or read about them in Guide Books.

I would be a bit put off by 'Castle' for France, and would think of England or Ireland.

Medieval fortress. ;)

could you throw "castle" into the text somewhere to help any one who isn't familiar with the word Chateau?

I would certainly NOT consider a chateau to be the same as a "castle." A chateau, even if incorrect, conjures up the idea of some sort of grand house or home whereas a castle seems to be, as someone above has said so well, something with perhaps a moat, a drawbridge, etc., or at least some variation on that theme.

Whether you like it or not I suspect a great many people from the US when they hear the term "castle" they think of the representation by Disney and it doesn't exactly look like Chenonceau.

As any residential structure of the 12th century of this type would probably be referred to in French as a <i>château fort</i>, I believe medieval fortress, as FrenchMystique suggests, would be the best translation. The term offers a clear distinction between structures of the Middle Ages built for defense and those built for grandeur beginning during the Renaissance, such as those of the Loire Valley.

Speaking purely as a copywriter, I'd keep it at "château". It just sounds better to me.

I think Sarastro is on the right track. Perhaps you refer to the chateau by its proper name, but include a parenthetical reference like (12th century medieval fortress). Just saying chateau doesn't convey as much information.

I imagine that it would muddy the water to ask what all of us call such a building if it is in Germany or Italy?

Logic tells me that since I use the word 'castle' in those countries, I would have to accept it for France as well.

Not knowing Carlux, I googled and found this: http://www.best-of-perigord.tm.fr/co.../carluxuk.html

It combines FMT's and Ann's advice: fortress with the word castle worked into the text. Looks to me like a good solution.

[Mind you, the site also tells us that the fortress was "destructed".]

My romance doesn't need a castle rising in Spain....
Chateau ... 12 th century fortress... Really DOES fit the description of the sites I've visited in France.
In England, I sort of think of them as palaces, and actually, that is what I would call Versailles. Except out in the country, aren't they just grand country houses (in England).

I think it probably can be said either way.

IMHO a "castle" was or is a fortified building built primarily for defensive military purposes and usually before 1550 or so - and was designed to be a self-supporting community under seige.

A "chateaux" is a pleasure palace - usually built from 1500 or so on - not for military purposes but to provide a places for aristocrats to enjoy themselves in the county - and was designed for beauty with lovely gardens, lakes, and long views over pretty countryside.

What you are talking about seems to be a castle.

Caveat - this info is correct but the average tourist probably won't know.

My thinking is exactly the opposite of nytraver's. I think of a castle as a pleasure palace and a château as a fortified building built, as so many in the Dordogne were, for military purposes.

The terms are used differently in English and American. In Aquitaine, the only acceptable dialect is English.

In English - the language of most anglophone tourists and virtually all anglophone residents in rural France - a castle is almost always a medieval building still showing signs of fortification. The few exceptions are for buildings, mostly in the British Isles, where either the name's either been applied, or the building's been rebuilt in the past few centuries, the fortifications removed, but the name (as in Sudely Castle) retained .

A chateau - again in English - is a word used only to refer to buildings in France, or the French-speaking territories around it. It's used almost identically to the English "stately home" or some uses of "country house", and a chateau must look primarily residential. Most English speakers imagine the term refers to relatively recent buildings (post 1500 being the usual English criterion for "relatively recent"), though applying it to a building from the Romanesque era would be OK if it looked residential.

I'll leave it to Ameican posters to describe how their language is used. But, whereas in English the distinction between chateau and castle is clear and consistently used by all speakers (so misusing these terms will confuse English speakers), I suspect most users of the American dialect are a lot vaguer. You sometimes find Americans using "castle" as the generic term for both chateaux and castles, which will simply baffle an English speaker.

Whereas in Paris, and bits of the Riviera, there's an argument that the dominant dialect might be seen as American, in Aquitaine, and in your case, there's simply no debate. You speak English, and in English the Chateau de Carlux (that's what it's called in English) is a castle. Guide books in English should go "The Chateau de Carlux was built in xxxx. The castle's typical of those erected during the xxxx wars" or whatever.

The distinction's subtle, and the French often get it wrong. But it sticks out like a sore thumb to an English speaker when they do - like translating "sensible" as "sensible"

I wrote a trip report in which I tried to distinguish the difference between what Americans might consider a château to look like and what they might consider a castle to look like (even though these terms are obviously interchangeable):

"I'm American and being an American I often tell my French wife that I know what a castle looks like. I've seen them in movies, and in Disneyland. Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty both lived in castles. I am a castle expert. As any castle expert knows, castles have spires, towers and turrets and are surrounded by a moat, preferably filled with water and teeming with piranhas, sharks and alligators, similar to the way these creatures enjoy living together in The Great Lakes. Castles do not resemble big houses, like Versailles."

To make things simpler, we can all just switch to speaking French whereby all of these buildings will be called châteaux, although when the walls are a meter thick we might prefer to use the term <i>château-fort</i> or <i>château fortifié</i>.

Let me just add that it doesn't really matter whether you call it a château or a castle. As long as you provide a photo then, well, a picture is worth a thousand words (or in this case two words - château and castle-).

Thanks for your input. I'm trying to put together a response, and had a look at the official site for Beynac, home of one of the largest Chateaux-forts.

It starts off saying - in French and on the English site:
Beynac,' un village un castel, un fleuve' - just to make things more interesting.

Then it goes on - meaning what?
On this ship of limestone failed at feet of the river Dordogne, pages of troubles of a fortress and its village are going to be engraved for ever … "
" … You interminable Dordogne or river? River Dordognia Monseigneur! "

So anything I do will be better than this (I hope)

Strangely enough, I agree with nytraveler and flanneruk. (I'm an American speaking American English.) Sounds like what you have in Carlux is a castle. To me, chateau implies a more complete building with no defensive aspect, one purely for luxurious living.

When we went to Gisors, I was a bit disappointed to see the chateau there. It was not what I had expected.

I've been frustrated with the French language wherein the word château can mean anything from a large, elaborate palace to a castle or a large or even not so large country house or a medieval fortress or a pile of stones. How does a palais differ from a château?

We English-speakers have benefited from the addition of French words to our vocabulary, giving us a larger pool of word choices with fine distinctions. For instance, I would differentiate between cemetery (from cimetière) and graveyard.

As for what flanneruk calls the American "dialect,", over the years I've found the British speaking more and more like Americans. It's almost disappointing. Must be the influence of TV and movies.

I have seen and read of many big (usually country) houses/mansions that are callaed "château ...", often of wine makers, with no aspect of fortress so I tend to agree with nytraveler, flanneuruk, Mimar and Dukey...

I have seen and read of many big (usually country) houses/mansions that are callaed "château ...", often of wine makers,

In the case of wine-makers, it has nothing to do with the size of the house/mansion. It is a way to designate a Grand Cru (usually a Bordeaux wine).
A château is also the upper structure of a ship deck - again, nothing to do with a mansion.

I also agree with NYTraveler and Flanneruk. I also think FrenchMystiqueTours' is perfect, from this American's point of view. When I think of "castle" I think of moats and turrets and arrow slits. I think of Provins or Vincennes. No way I'd think of Villandry as a castle. I think the term "castle" fits Carlux just fine.

On this ship of limestone failed at feet of the river Dordogne, pages of troubles of a fortress and its village are going to be engraved for ever … "
" … You interminable Dordogne or river? River Dordognia Monseigneur! ">>

lol, Carlux - a wonderful example of franglais.

it does highlight something that i have noticed which is that in this sort of literature, french people tend to use rather more highflown language than we would in the same sort of publication.

ASlso, someone (Who doesnt speak a word of Engolish) puts it through a translation program,and accepts whatever comes out.

I was at the Grotte de Maxange several years ago, and said to the very nice young man who had given us the tour in French that the English captions that accompanied the photos weren't comprehensible by English speakers - 'yes they are' he said. When I pointed out - very politely, and in French - that in fact they weren't, he said 'I did them, and they are good enough for the English.' End of conversation, and unfortunately representative of the opinion of a number of people here. Luckily since I speak French I could read the French captions and figure out what they were trying to say.