"Celtic": "Keltic" or "Seltic" or Both?
 

a question about the pronunciation of the word CELTIC

Long ago in America this word was inevitably pronounced like sel-tic - as in the famous Boston Celtic perennial champion NBA basketball team

It was 'seltic' music, etc.

Then a few decades ago the word inevitably became said as "keltic" even though the Boston Celtics have kept their 'seltics' pronunciation

And on Fiona Ritchie's (sp?) NPR Sat eve radio show showcasing new trends in Celtic Music this Scottish, i believe, lass, definitely says Keltic with a very hard K

So i thought Seltic had become passe in favor of Keltic universally except in basketball circles

So when i recently stayed in Eltham, London at a B&B run by Phyllis Dennis, a dear older lady who told me she was born in Ireland and was Irish though she fled, like many other Irish to England, many many years ago - this came up when i detected some klicking brogue when she said certain words so i asked if she were Scottish and she said no Irish

Anyway she soon said the word Celtic and pronounced it Seltic

I asked about this - the difference between Seltic and Keltic and how i thought it was all Keltic

and she said no, to her Irish were Seltic and Keltic is what she'd call the Scots

Is there a difference between Seltic and Keltic when saying Celtic?

thanks, curious in Tonbridge

She was having you on, mate!

PalenQ asked: " Is there a difference between Seltic and Keltic when saying Celtic?"

Yes. Except for the names of two sports teams (in Boston and in Glasgow) and other teams named in recognition of them, Celtic is pronounced Celtic.

Hi P,

>Is there a difference between Seltic and Keltic when saying Celtic?

Depends on which old lady you talk to.

"Pardon me, sir. Is this state pronounced Hawaii or Havaii"?
"Havaii".
"Thank you".
"You're Velcome".

((I))

First, the two easy bits.

If you believe in a "correct" pronunciation (a concept that's wholly alien to English), it has to be Kelts, because that's how Herodotus spelt it.

But the most common pronunciation in British and Irish English is Seltic, because that's how the football team's pronounced.

Your landlady's two-pronunciation idea is bonkers. My memory is that Seltic remained the standard British Isles pronunciation for a long time (all British politicians talked about the "Seltic fringe" , referring to Wales, Cornwall and Scotland till the mid-90s, and a lot still do).

Only academics have consistentkly talked about the Kelts. As half-baked tertiary education, as well as anthropobabble, poison the population, it sounds posher to use academics', rather than footballers, English.

So everyone who witters on about "the central role of women in Keltic religions" insists on being academically correct.

As far as I'm concerned, though, unless you're talking about European tribal movements before the year 0, it's Seltic.

No she was not putting me on - not this lady - definitely not - maybe misunderstood something but definitely called herself Celtic as in seltic

she was not the type to be putting me on of that i'm sure

and we did indeed use the pronunciation Seltic in the States for years and years before it suddenly became Keltic

maybe this lovely older lady still have the seltic also in her mind? Not having been in Ireland or Irish circles much i think

In general the S sound is used for sports teams and the K for anything to do with peoples, institutions, countries etc.

Lots of debate on how the distinction between the two pronunciations came about although there does seem to be some consensus that common parlance generally preferred the S form until the academic K from became prevalent.

I do know that my own team, Glasgow Celtic, has always been pronounced as an S. Would be interesting to hear from any linguists on this.

...and of course many academics reckon that the Celts never set foot in Britain.

BTW, I knew a very grand old lady who always referred to the Kinema.

Ach, seltic, keltic, who gives a sh't? <b>Rangers rule!</b>

According to Merriam-Webster, both pronunciations are possible:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-b...&amp;va=Celtic

The Irish prefer seltic, and since Celtic Glasgow was founded by an Irishman in 1887, pronunciation is seltic Glasgow.

Linguists, historians etc. would certainly prefer keltic.

Taxi for Robspierre!!!! :-)

&lt;&lt;&lt; Celtic Glasgow &gt;&gt;&gt;

It's Glasgow Celtic

There is a probably apocryphal story of a drunk in America coming up to Richard Burton
and talking about how much they had in common as &quot;They were both Celts&quot; pronouncing it &quot;Selt&quot;.

Burton Replied, &quot;No Sir, I am a selt, you are a sunt&quot;

<i>&lt;&lt;&lt; Celtic Glasgow &gt;&gt;&gt;

It's Glasgow Celtic</i>

To be <i>really</i> pedantic it's neither.

The club's just called Celtic FC.

Celtic comes from the French <i>celtique</i> and the correct pronunciation is seltic.

Ya' gotta' love Richard Burton!

:))

Sam

I would have thought that the switch from the S sound to the K sound comes from the success the Irish government had in reviving the use of the Gaelic language in Ireland. Being more logical than English, S is used for the English S sound, C for the Engish K sound, and there is no K.

Wonder why Fiona Ritchie on her Celtic music hour on NPR, where she showcases new folk type music from Scotland, Cornwall, Ireland and Brittany, etc.

why seh says 'keltic'

not an academic setting but seems she would pronounce it as the locals do or local musicians

&gt;&gt;Celtic comes from the French celtique and the correct pronunciation is seltic.&lt;&lt;

Er, no, actually - on either count.

As already mentioned PalenQ, the soft S is used almost exclusively in the context of sporting clubs. In Glasgow we have a music festival, throughout January, called Celtic Connections, the K sound is used for it.

The root is keltoi, the ancient greek word for foreigners. According to Caesar the people of Gaul called themselves Celts.

It seems we've had this discussion before.

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34586656

I should have said that celtic <b>entered</b> the English language via French and that the correct pronunciation is <b>seltic</b>.

In any case, the Scots, Welsh and Irish are about as Celtic as my uncle Mustapha bin Abdul.

J R Hartley wrote: &quot;In any case, the Scots, Welsh and Irish are about as Celtic as my uncle Mustapha bin Abdul.&quot;

Wow! My precursors (note that I don't say ancestors) ranged even further that I had supposed. Does he speak a Brythonic or a Goidelic language?

As a Turk, his precursors would have spoken Galatian, a now extinct Continental Celtic language, and so would be closer to Celtiberian and Gaulish than to the insular Celtic Languages you cite.

When I was a young English teacher and announced that it could be pronounced either way, an older English teacher, very categorically, told me &quot;it's Keltic.&quot; I'm glad to know there's some room for disagreement on this.

Where is that %&amp;*# now!!!

Hi Pal,

have you nothing better to do on your travels than find daft threads for us to answer?

but then you are in Tonbridge for goodness sake, so I've just answered my own question. [just think dundee on a wet sunday afternoon with even less to do].

the cornish think of themselves as Celts [or Kelts if you prefer] like the welsh, Bretons, etc. recent DNA testing revealed that they have most in common with the Basques of northern spain. how did that happen?

regards, ann

annhig, apparently northern Spain was settled by Celts who spoke a form of Celtic called Celtiberian. Apparently, the Celtiberian people formed when Celts migrated from France to Spain and bred with the local populace.

In Ireland we say Keltic unless when referring to the football team who are Glasgow Seltic.

Either pronunciation is correct. Which pronunciation is preferred depends on where you are (e.g., England, the USA, or Ireland) and the context, but neither is incorrect, EXCEPT if a team or some other entity chooses one pronunciation or the other for its name; e.g., the Boston (S)eltics basketball team. In this case, (S)eltics would be the correct pronunciation.

I've only ever heard Keltic when listening to Irish/Scottish/Welsh music. Seltic for the sports teams. When I first came across the difference, it was when speaking to a Welshman living in America, he was quite insistent that it was Keltic. That's the first time I'd heard the hard C sound for it.

Of course, I have also heard Seltic in a song by Steve McDonald, a new age Scottish musician.

And I've seen Keltoi from the Greeks.

I think there is no hard and fast rule, but certainly popular preferences. I call it Keltic unless I'm talking sports (which I rarely do) :)

&quot;Apparently, the Celtiberian people formed when Celts migrated from France to Spain and bred with the local populace&quot;

Genetics has thrown the migration theory out of the window.

It was language and culture that spread, not people.

Annhig. It that the British and Irish came to the islands about 15000 years ago from Spain, and no subsequent migration, be it Roman, Viking, Saxon, Norman, or anything else has impacted any more than 5% of the gene pool.

The English aren't Anglo-Saxons, and the rest (for which I couldn't give tuppence) are not Celts.