Wow Liam that seems like an awful lot of thought to go through before you pin on a patch.
A lot of us wear the pins with the crossed American/Canadian flags. What does that mean?
(Sounds as complicated as those circle pins that we swore meant whether the girl was a virgin or not depending on which side it was worn. Remember?)

hdm,

I think there's differences in conversational nuances in the same way we would wear our badges.

We can correct such question in a way that is a matter or fact or even proudly as a native of that country.

Or we can respond to the question in a huffy manner as in, how dare you think I'm American?! - it's the same way that the badge or pin is reflected by the individual owner - some may use it to be proud of their country; and some may use it to differentiate themselves from the Americans.

I don't wear emblems of any kind, traveling or otherwise. I even hate it when they put brand names on clothes or shoes.

nbujic -
The only "relation" of the Union Jack to the Canadian flag pertained to my understanding that the French supposedly are not great fans of the English so if someone from the United States was planning on pretending to be from another country by the use of a flag, they might not want to wear the union jack either.

I love to buy flag badges from everywhere I go, and I sew (or glue) them on my backpack. If the intent to put a flag, any flag, on a backpack is to confuse, I'm sure I'm doing a great job!

o,k,
thanks.
I have never carried a backpack, so no place to stick a flag of any country!

<<Wow Liam that seems like an awful lot of thought to go through before you pin on a patch.
A lot of us wear the pins with the crossed American/Canadian flags. What does that mean?
(Sounds as complicated as those circle pins that we swore meant whether the girl was a virgin or not depending on which side it was worn. Remember?)>>

*LOL... yes, it is a bit to think of before donning a patch, I'll admit. For me what it comes down to is the motivation for wearing the patch. Pride, affinity = OK. Distancing, "don't blame me, I'm Canadian" = I can do without. The truth is, I'm too busy during my travels to really engage anyone on the issue, so chances are pretty good that you'll escape unscathed should you cross my path. *LOL

Circle pins? I don't think I know what that's all about. Based on my orientation, I'd be checking out the brooch and not trying to figure out if a woman is a virgin. ;^)

girls wear pins to show WHAT???

wow you learn something new every day here on Fodor's!

"I have never carried a backpack, so no place to stick a flag of any country!"

Total lack of imagination.

This whole thing is a bit of a joke. To an outsider there's very little difference between the US and Canada, or between Americans and Canadians, so who cares? After a few days in Canada (after crossing from the USA) I remember saying to my wife "I have very little sense that we're in a different country." Her response was "I have NO sense that I'm in a different country, apart from the metric measurements." I did however notice that there were more American cars on the roads in Canada than on the Left Coast of the USA. In general there seems much less cultural difference between California and BC, for example, than between California and Louisiana.

Stylistically, wearing national symbols is about on par with wearing socks with sandals.

Bush is no more popular in Australia than in Europe, but I've never heard an American complain that they weren't well treated here.

What a load of codswallop.

I am Canadian and whenever I see the little flag on a backpack or bag while travelling in Europe I always feel contempt. I mean really...is it a security blanket? Are they just "skimming the surface" kind of travelers thinking that by identifying themselves to the outside world, they will be treated better? With more "respect" by virtue of being "Canadian"? How naive. I can't help but think they are novice travellers with little interest in having genuine communication with the natives of the country they are visiting. It's SO self centred and un-worldly.

Neil_Oz - I am Canadian and my husband is Australian. The first time I went to Oz, I said the same thing to him after a few hours on the road: I have very little sense that I'm in a different country to Canada. Sure, the landscape is a little different, different trees, different earth but the cities felt the same and so did the people. I wondered if the colonies have a flat-pack factory somewhere? My husband laughs at me because I have this National Geographic view of Australia and I want every Australian bloke to be the Man from Snowy River. The reality was far different and I couldn't get over it. To be honest, I don't think I ever will.

On the subject of Canadian flags on backpacks, I'm with Hunnibun. I see it all the time on the tube in London (where I live) and I just feel embarrassment for them. I really don't think the average waitress or shopkeeper in Europe really cares where you're from - they're too busy living their own lives and trying to make money. And if they judge you to be American, who cares too? Does it actually mean anything anymore? For me, when I see the flag on the backpack, the message I receive is "I'm insecure and I want you to like me". Such a bore.

For some people -- probably many people -- nationality is a major element of their sense of personal identity. They can get a bit pissed off at being taken for something else. It seems to me that this happens to Canadians more than many other national groups. So some of them might want to give an upfront message, the essence of which is "I am not an American".

I don't have an acute ear, but sometimes I recognise a Canadian by accent, and some other times I know at least that a person is not necessarily US American, and use the term "North American". Many Canadians are highly appreciative of such recognition.

In continental Europe, I am often taken as English. It doesn't bother me at all, but I generally clarify that I am Irish. I do this, not because of any worry about my own sense of identity, but because it is often an advantage to be Irish. Our image is better than we deserve.

But I would never wear a flag or emblem.

Neil:

It's not unique to Canadians. There seem to be an awful lot of Enzedders around who either stick their flag on their backpacks (usually with an 'NZ' next to it, since they know no-one can tell the difference) or inverted 'NZ' plates on the backs of their campervans.

Just as there's a remarkable number of people with St Andrews crosses on their bags or "Ecosse" or "SCO" plates on the back of British registered cars.

All because they think they'll be taken for something else. As endless says: as if anyone cared.

"To an outsider there's very little difference between the US and Canada, or between Americans and Canadians, so who cares?"

I can certainly see how it might seem that way to a visitor. The differences, however, are significant, notwithstanding the common language, availability of consumer goods, and some shared interests. Look no further than the structure of government, the distribution of power between levels of government, fiscal policy, social policy, health policy, and gun control, not to mention that one of the countries has two official languages. The list is almost endless.

I'm not saying that one is right and the other is wrong, nor that one is better than the other. There are reasons for the differences, and for many, the differences outnumber the similarities.

Anselm

"Stylistically, wearing national symbols is about on par with wearing socks with sandals."

An Australian I know used to refer to recently arrived immigrants from Britain as "the socks-and-sandals brigade." Do the Poms still emigrate to Oz?

Amen, AnselmAdorne!To an "outsider" , there is very little difference between French and Belgians, Australians and New Zealanders, the Scots and the Irish....need I go on? Of course, there SHOULD be no difference in our openess and acceptance of cultures other than our own. But "vive la difference!" After all, if we were all the same, why on earth we would bother ever to leave our home countries?

....
" I felt tothave very little sense that I'm in a different country to Canada....
Interesting. Before going to Australia I was thinking the same, but once in Oz, to me, it felt like a totally different world.
In Europe, we are always assumed to be American ( because my is very tall or because he likes to wear shorts ??)
So what .

sorry, should by my husband

>..the term "North American". Many Canadians are highly appreciative of such recognition.<

Canadians don't wish to be recognized as a separate country?

((I))

I agree with Anselm's distinction and wish to add that Canadians have always been recognized as Peace Keepers wherever they go in the world, because that has been their role in international conflicts. The similarities between Canada and the US are just surficial. At a deeper level, the differences are signficant. The US looks a lot like Canada to me too, when we travel there, but that doesn't mean there aren't differences.

Personally, I don't have a flag emblem on anything but I do (if I remember to get them) try to carry a handful of tiny Canadian flag pins to give to kids. I'm sure they don't care about the fact that they're Canadian flags -- you know kids, they like to collect stuff like that.

I have no problem with anyone wearing the flag of their country, if they choose to do it. I don't take it as an insult to my country and it gives one a nice opening for conversations with strangers.

Oh dear. Once again, let me say that I know of no (zero, nada, zip, nil) Canadians who describe themselves as North American. We describe ourselves as Canadian. That's the nationality we wish to be know by. And to be able to recognize a Canadian by their accent seems unlikely. It's a big country and extremely multicultural, so there are about a billion accents, as there are in the US.

Do you think Americans describe themselves as North American? I don't think so. I think they proudly say American when asked their citizenship. Why would Canadians want to do less?

I always get the feeling that Americans think that Canadians are just dying to be Americans. That we're 'wannabee Yanks'. Well, um, no. Thanks anyway. We like visiting but most Canadians I know prefer their own citizenship and the benefits that come with it.

My brother had a French Canadian girlfriend for 12 years. Her mother spoke NO English, her father's was halting (this was about 1985). Lots of polite smiling and heaps of translation when my parents invited them over for dinner. To me, Canada has always been very distinct from the United States because of this very reason - a completely different cultural and linguistic experience living in the oldest settled part of North America amongst the Quebecois.

<<...wish to add that Canadians have always been recognized as Peace Keepers wherever they go in the world, because that has been their role in international conflicts. >>

Here we go again about Canada's "peacekeeping tradition" and its role in international conflicts. Hogwash!

If you want to know about Canada's role in international conflicts go to the cemeteries in France, Holland, Belgium, Italy, Korea, and other places around the world where you will find the graves of the tens of thousands of Canadians who died in the service of their country. Read the thousands of names on the Menin Gate in Ypres and on the Vimy Memorial in France of Canadian soldiers with no known graves. Better still, look at any Canadian newspaper today and see photos of the cortege of hearses bringing back the bodies of six Canadian soldiers who died this week in Afghanistan in the war against the Taliban.

"Canada's peacekeeping tradition" is used by many, politicians included, to create the impression that Canada is a gentle, neutral, non-warlike society, striving to bring peace to the world. Nonsense. Peacekeeping was never the rationale for the Canadian Armed Forces as some would believe, but simply a useful task at times. The myth of Canada's peacekeeping tradition was partly fuelled by politicians wanting to eviscerate the armed forces and partly by those wishing to distinguish themselves from the nasty Americans.

I have worn the blue beret on United Nations service during my 32 years service, but I never considered myself a "peacekeeper". I was a soldier and proud to be one.

Maybe SOME Americans, hdm. Put me down as one USA-ian who understands that Canada is a separate country and realizes that you aren't just dying to join us. I'm sure there are a lot of us who think like this, we're just not as much fun for sound bites.

Robs, as for the
"Total lack of imagination."

Don't we have enough flag waiving around the world these days as it is?

<<And to be able to recognize a Canadian by their accent seems unlikely.>>

Well I can, sometimes.

hdm, I think you misunderstand what I said.

First, I made it clear that *sometimes* I recognise a Canadian by accent, so to say that there are many Canadian accents proves or disproves nothing.

Second, I have observed that many Canadians are not pleased if one presumes they are American. When in doubt about a person's nationality, I use North America or North American pending clarification. Once I know the nationality, I use the more recognised words: American or Canadian, as appropriate.

And I stand by what I said, because I know what my experience is: Canadians have indicated approval or pleasure when I have avoided lumping them in with Americans. None has ever reacted negatively.

But almost all the Canadians I have met have been pleasant and polite. Perhaps they are not a representative sample.

I'm sure no Canadian ever calls themselves 'North American'

But, just as many of us have discovered it's wisest to refer to some people as Australasian because you can never be sure which one they are and you always piss themn off if you guess wrong, there are contexts where many Europeans (and Hell,if we're prepared to accept such generic phrases for ourselves occasionally, the damn colonials can bloody well put up with it too) find it causes less offence to call someone talking about a moose in the hoose North American. There are, after all, natives of Washington State who are practically indistinguishable from British Colombiand.

Now if someone can think of a generic phrase for white people from Zimbabwe and South Africa, because that's another one you always guess wrong from the accent...

I'm a lot better at distinguishing Kiwis (you gotta drop the vowel from the word) from Aussies than I am with Canadians and Americans. Having said that, I thought the movie 'Fargo' was the most Canadian movie I had ever seen.

laverendrye,
I'm not disputing what you've said. I wish it were true that Canadians were ONLY needed in peace-keeping roles around the world (and even better, not even that). What I meant was that to people of a certain age around the world, Canadians are known as Peace Keepers and that's how they're welcomed. Canadians do not have a reputation for being aggressors.

And yes, of course I can recognize many American accents too. But there are tons of Americans I would just assume are Canadians, if I were sitting next to them at a restaurant.

I just don't understand this 'oot and aboot' thing. Never have. That sounds Scottish to me. To me it sounds like we're saying 'owt and abowt'.

flanneruk wrote: "Now if someone can think of a generic phrase for white people from Zimbabwe and South Africa, because that's another one you always guess wrong from the accent..."

Call them Africans. It's very fair, because it pisses them off equally.

I think people are reading too much into flags on backpacks etc. Although I'm not Canadian (I'm Australian), I lived there for 17 years and my brothers have Canadian families.

It is an icebreaker, if you have an emblem displayed, it becomes an way of starting a conversation - standing in a queue, sitting on the tube, staying in a hostel. It's also saves having to explain that you aren't from the US.

I quite often will speak to someone because they have the Canadian flag on their bags as I have an affinity, the same way I'll talk to someone from NZ.

When I lived in Canada in the '70s, the majority of people thought I was English, perhaps I should have worn an Australian flag but then they probably wouldn't have recognised it - much less so in the States where, at that time, many educated people asked how come I spoke English so well - they thought Australia and Austria were the same place. They also had no idea that Australia had conscripted troops in Vietnam but that is another story.

I am Canadian, like the beer commercial. I travel with a Canadian flag on my luggage, it helps when locating my suitcase at airports. The flag is a red Maple Leaf on white in the center with two red bars on either side. Not the Union Jack, although some provincial flags have the UJ incorporated in their flags. I agree with Sarvowinner the Canadian flag/patch/button I find is an icebreaker particularly when traveling and you meet up with someone from New Zealand, Australia, Ireland, England, etc. We are a commonwealth of nations there's a nice connection between us.

My daughter who backpacked across Europe alone last summer had a Canadian flag on her backpack and I just checked with her and she assures me that no one vomited when they saw it as one poster said would happen. She said that while waiting in a train station for some Irish friends she met along the way to arrive that the area was sketchy and she was uncomfortable with the pan handlers when two Aussies approached her and said "hey Canada mind if we sit with you". She said she was never happier to have that flag on her bag.

Last Fall in New Orleans our conference gave out Canadian Flag beads, they were nice. All the States had beads represented as well. The most coveted were the Canadian beads, I was offered $50 for mine plus California, Florida and New Jersey beads. I still have my beads.

I think its all about being proud about the country you come from or have a connection like Americans of Italian descent - they say they are Italian, same with those of Irish descent.

Great post by the way, I think this holds the record for how many times "Canada" has been used on this board.

We are the commonwealth of nations there's a nice.....'
This is such a colonial view
of the world !
How do you feel about people from Ghana or Pakistan?
And why Ireland?

"I love to buy flag badges..."


Badges? We don't need no stinking badges!

((H))

>> The flag is a red Maple Leaf on white in the center with two red bars on either side. <<


Breaking news !

I'm someone who posted when this thread was in its infancy - weren't we all then!

My husband and I wear small Canadian lapel pins on our jackets - we are far too old and creaky to be able to carry around backpacks. We do it just for us, because while we are away from home, it makes us feel good. I'm amused that wearing a Canadian flag has been debated as a fashion faux pas, as anti-American or just plain nerdy. Each to their own.

However, in our recent trip to England and Italy, there were at least a dozen times when someone engaged us in conversation because they saw the flags. They either had relatives in Canada, had worked in Canada, had a question about 'French' vs. 'English' Canada, etc. At least half of the time, after chatting to someone, we were allowed little freebies - like taking a picture in a room where you weren't suppose to, being given a brochure free, etc., but my favourite was being allowed to park outside the theatre in Stratford, almost in front of the door, for free, while we went to an evening performance. (The fellow staffing the booth had worked in Canada and we'd treated him well.)

Obviously, my husband and I didn't wear the lapel pins to get free stuff -if we'd known that our countrymen and women were held in such high esteem - we might have gone for the giant-size decals on the backs of our coats!

As to a number of the posters' viewpoints that in Europe no one can tell Canadians from Americans, perhaps that's true. We obviously, unintentionally, circumvented that problem.

"As to a number of the posters' viewpoints that in Europe no one can tell Canadians from Americans, perhaps that's true."

Except for that "eh" thing.

((H))

Nbujic - I always get Lesotho and Ireland mixed up, you are right Ireland left the Commonwealth in 1949 same time as Newfoundland joined Canada. Causes great confusion in our colonial minds, Ireland being so close and all.

Superheterodyne - again some confusion the Tim Horton's coffee mug is often thought of as our national symbol versus the maple leaf. Then again many people have forgotten that Tim Horton was a hockey player and not a coffee shop.

Rickmav - it sometimes feels as though we are treated well being Canadian just because where we come from but I think if you treat people courteously in another country they'll treat you with respect. And, if being Canadian helps so be it. We got 5 euros off each night of our stay in Italy because the owners father worked in Whitehorse. Having Canadian passport works as good as a flag on a backpack.

Hi Denise

Re: your last comment - unfortunately you can't wear your passport on your lapel or bags. ;)