Can teaching patriotism protect France?
Feb 9th, 2015, 11:42 AM
#21
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Patriotism is but another artificial divide. As noted above, the best way to try avoid immigrants from becoming terrorists is much more complex and time consuming:
1. Give them a real chance to become a member of the middle class.
2. Make them feel they will be protected by the government and appreciated by the general citizenry.
2. Do not pass laws that are specifically discriminating.
3. Teach citizens about the differences from a purely factual perspective.
4. The best way to prevent to avoid bigotry is a self worth in the potential bigot so that they do not blame others for their own failings.
5. Remember there is a civil war going on in Islam and westerners are the side show used to show others how easily the west is manipulated. See: the week Charlie Hebdo was attacked and a town of 2,000 was murdered by Boko Haram and which got more publicity.
6. Listen to the people who are the objects of bigotry as to how to correct it as well.
1. Give them a real chance to become a member of the middle class.
2. Make them feel they will be protected by the government and appreciated by the general citizenry.
2. Do not pass laws that are specifically discriminating.
3. Teach citizens about the differences from a purely factual perspective.
4. The best way to prevent to avoid bigotry is a self worth in the potential bigot so that they do not blame others for their own failings.
5. Remember there is a civil war going on in Islam and westerners are the side show used to show others how easily the west is manipulated. See: the week Charlie Hebdo was attacked and a town of 2,000 was murdered by Boko Haram and which got more publicity.
6. Listen to the people who are the objects of bigotry as to how to correct it as well.
Feb 9th, 2015, 12:39 PM
#22
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<<France is obliged to pay for Christian and Jewish schools in Alsace-Moselle because German law is still applied there and there is no separation of church and state. >>
Kerouac, I was shocked to read this and had no idea of the historical background of the Concordat of 1801. It seems there are powerful forces in France who are unwilling to repeal this since it was upheld even as recently as 2013. This legal rejection of laïcité is surprising.
France is obliged to pay for Christian and Jewish schools in Alsace-Moselle because German law is still applied there and there is no separation of church and state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concord...Alsace-Moselle
Kerouac, I was shocked to read this and had no idea of the historical background of the Concordat of 1801. It seems there are powerful forces in France who are unwilling to repeal this since it was upheld even as recently as 2013. This legal rejection of laïcité is surprising.
France is obliged to pay for Christian and Jewish schools in Alsace-Moselle because German law is still applied there and there is no separation of church and state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concord...Alsace-Moselle
Feb 9th, 2015, 12:56 PM
#23
In reality a lot of them are defending a different agenda -- they have better social security and retirement benefits in Alsace-Moselle, and if they aligned all of their laws on normal French laws, they would lose that.
Feb 9th, 2015, 01:13 PM
#24
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<i> If Jewish children voluntarily excluded themselves from the concept of French life already back then, I suppose it is not surprising that the aged adults still feel excluded if the misunderstanding has continued for the past 70 years.</i>
Children going to grade school are probably not aware of the incongruity of the phrase "nos ancêtres les Gaulois", the adults in the home were. Most of the children integrated very well into French society, but who knows if a Pierre Goldman was not also the product of such misguided ancestral identity.
Children going to grade school are probably not aware of the incongruity of the phrase "nos ancêtres les Gaulois", the adults in the home were. Most of the children integrated very well into French society, but who knows if a Pierre Goldman was not also the product of such misguided ancestral identity.
Feb 9th, 2015, 09:45 PM
#26
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Don't most countries "teach patriotism" ?
I was taught our national anthem in school, and we sang it at all assemblies.. we also sang "God save the Queen" although that went by the wayside sometime when I was in grades 4-6.
Do American children still say the Pledge of Alligence in school?
I think the idea that teaching patriotism is a good one.. but I don't think its nearly enough .. Imdonethere actually posted some more valid points.. ( and I have a hard time agreeing with him but when you are spot on, you are spot on)
I was taught our national anthem in school, and we sang it at all assemblies.. we also sang "God save the Queen" although that went by the wayside sometime when I was in grades 4-6.
Do American children still say the Pledge of Alligence in school?
I think the idea that teaching patriotism is a good one.. but I don't think its nearly enough .. Imdonethere actually posted some more valid points.. ( and I have a hard time agreeing with him but when you are spot on, you are spot on)
Feb 9th, 2015, 11:00 PM
#27
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As in any country, patriotism can mean many different things to different people, and France has no less complicated a history of disagreements (to put it mildly) between patriotisms. But both left and right have a history of identifying patriotism with a single set of cultural values.
Of course it's essential for people who grow up in a country to have a knowledge of the common facts and surrounding narrative(s) of how it got to be what it is and how people lived and live in it, but simply forcing a single approved set of facts and ideas down children's throats strikes me as about as pointless, and in some cases potentially counter-productive, as the "Kings/Queens/Our Island Story" school of British (predominantly English) history.
If the assimilationist rhetoric isn't visibly and comprehensibly applied in empirical reality on the ground (i.e., properly effective anti-discrimination policies and practices, where French political culture seems to think that the rhetoric and formal equality of citizenship are enough), there will be disaffected young people looking for some other way to give themselves status and identity.
But alternative routes have their loopholes too: in any society there will be individuals who just take against the world around them.
Of course it's essential for people who grow up in a country to have a knowledge of the common facts and surrounding narrative(s) of how it got to be what it is and how people lived and live in it, but simply forcing a single approved set of facts and ideas down children's throats strikes me as about as pointless, and in some cases potentially counter-productive, as the "Kings/Queens/Our Island Story" school of British (predominantly English) history.
If the assimilationist rhetoric isn't visibly and comprehensibly applied in empirical reality on the ground (i.e., properly effective anti-discrimination policies and practices, where French political culture seems to think that the rhetoric and formal equality of citizenship are enough), there will be disaffected young people looking for some other way to give themselves status and identity.
But alternative routes have their loopholes too: in any society there will be individuals who just take against the world around them.
Feb 10th, 2015, 12:17 AM
#28
What is always strange is that even the most 'anti-patriotic' individuals -- or foreign origin or not -- are generally rabid supporters of their city (over the 'other' city), their football team and their 'hood. Whether they realize it or not, the seeds of patriotism have already been planted in them. The challenge of the teachers and other officials is to make these seeds grown and expand beyond just a tiny element of their world. National success by other members of their community is a big help. In France, the extremely high visibility of sports stars, singers and actors from the pool of diversity is helping to create a new national identity with which they can identify, and it is working quite well.
Naturally, there is a down side -- too many of the traditional ethnic French feel that they are losing 'their' country, and that's why the National Front has become so powerful in the last few years.
Naturally, there is a down side -- too many of the traditional ethnic French feel that they are losing 'their' country, and that's why the National Front has become so powerful in the last few years.
Feb 10th, 2015, 12:34 AM
#29
Given that riots an aggresive mass behaviour is triggered almost exclusively by large percentages of 18 to 25 year old males who feel diss-enfranchised and un-employed the problems of all countries with such groups may be overcome by embracing them into employment and give them a good listening to.
It goes against the natural grain but "give me a job" solved more problems than you can believe. While France has done interesting things about globalisation within the country. (I've run businesses there) it needs grab this opportunity with both hands.
It goes against the natural grain but "give me a job" solved more problems than you can believe. While France has done interesting things about globalisation within the country. (I've run businesses there) it needs grab this opportunity with both hands.
Feb 10th, 2015, 02:47 AM
#30
The president announced last week that voluntary 'national service' (non military) will be available to all young people before the end of the year for up to 9 months. Ever since the end of conscription, there has been a huge national regret that young people were no longer mixed together for a certain amount of time to get to know and understand each other better. This will be an attempt to correct that. The challenge (besides finding money in the national budget to finance it) will be to find missions sufficiently appealing to attract young people to it. They will be paid 573 euros a month, which is a bit more than is received for an apprenticeship.
Feb 10th, 2015, 04:48 AM
#31
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Teaching "patriotism" generally does more harm than good in the world. Most of the killing in the world -- including that done by terrorists -- is done in the name of patriotism (when not being done in the name of protecting children. It is really quite true that patriotism is the refuge of scoundrels, including murderous scoundrels, covering up their killing for the base motives of money and power as if they were really acting for the noble purpose of "our country."
It's garbage.
If France and other countries want to act effectively against terrorism they should address the long outstanding issues of peace and justice in the Middle East, and reform their own thinking that treats these areas as colonial vestiges or racially and religiously inferior backwaters in need of the Englightenment.
It's garbage.
If France and other countries want to act effectively against terrorism they should address the long outstanding issues of peace and justice in the Middle East, and reform their own thinking that treats these areas as colonial vestiges or racially and religiously inferior backwaters in need of the Englightenment.
Feb 10th, 2015, 04:53 AM
#32
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Feb 10th, 2015, 05:08 AM
#33
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>>Accepting values like equality and secularism would make many countries proud, not just France. And other countries hate the idea. I know which side I support.<<
The issue in France goes beyond "accepting." It involves outlawing certain forms of religious observance in Muslim dress while allowing it in Christian and Jewish observance, and prosecuting Muslins for thought crimes.
Among the countries likely to "hate the idea" of France doing this is the United States, largely guided by Francophile Thomas Jefferson's powerful advocacy of freedom of religion and thought, and preserving peopl's right to individual conscience, against the mob and the government.
As Jefferson wrote:
"the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time... the opinions of men are not the object of civil government, nor under its jurisdiction; that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous falacy, which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment, and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own... and finally, that truth is great and will prevail if left to herself; that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate; errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them."
Definitely an improvement over the French approach.
The issue in France goes beyond "accepting." It involves outlawing certain forms of religious observance in Muslim dress while allowing it in Christian and Jewish observance, and prosecuting Muslins for thought crimes.
Among the countries likely to "hate the idea" of France doing this is the United States, largely guided by Francophile Thomas Jefferson's powerful advocacy of freedom of religion and thought, and preserving peopl's right to individual conscience, against the mob and the government.
As Jefferson wrote:
"the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time... the opinions of men are not the object of civil government, nor under its jurisdiction; that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous falacy, which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment, and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own... and finally, that truth is great and will prevail if left to herself; that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate; errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them."
Definitely an improvement over the French approach.
Feb 10th, 2015, 06:00 AM
#34
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"Teaching "patriotism" generally does more harm than good in the world" - Sandralist, you had the capacity to translate in words what I was thinking.
Patriotism is the modern version of tribal feeling. The raising of the ingroup against the outgroup has been for centuries a question of survival but nowadays is a seed for war and violence. Europe has seen a few of wars, since 1st WW to Ukraine and the patriotic element is common to them all.
Patriotism is the modern version of tribal feeling. The raising of the ingroup against the outgroup has been for centuries a question of survival but nowadays is a seed for war and violence. Europe has seen a few of wars, since 1st WW to Ukraine and the patriotic element is common to them all.
Feb 10th, 2015, 06:41 AM
#36
<i> It involves outlawing certain forms of religious observance in Muslim dress while allowing it in Christian and Jewish observance, and prosecuting Muslins for thought crimes.</i>
This is completely untrue. Crucifixes and kippas may not be worn in schools or public administrations.
As for thought crimes, just like in Germany, negationism and similar 'ideas' are against the law. If you want to accept them in your country, you are welcome to them.
This is completely untrue. Crucifixes and kippas may not be worn in schools or public administrations.
As for thought crimes, just like in Germany, negationism and similar 'ideas' are against the law. If you want to accept them in your country, you are welcome to them.
Feb 10th, 2015, 07:00 AM
#37
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All forms of censorship are capricious.
I would rather know what people think and who they are than have a law that suppresses thought. I was born in the United States because my family came here due to the hate, murder, and rape in various European countries.
No freedom is unfettered and no one should be able threaten another or allowed to libel or slander another, but repressive laws lead to repressive citizens.
I would rather know what people think and who they are than have a law that suppresses thought. I was born in the United States because my family came here due to the hate, murder, and rape in various European countries.
No freedom is unfettered and no one should be able threaten another or allowed to libel or slander another, but repressive laws lead to repressive citizens.
Feb 10th, 2015, 07:41 AM
#38
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'A key element of French patriotism is secularism, which I fully support'.
Agreed.
France also has laws about having to render assistance to anyone that needs it e.g. helping out people who've been in a car accident, or victims of a mugging. It's an offense not to help.
The French idea of patriotism is not necessarily all about flag waving...
Agreed.
France also has laws about having to render assistance to anyone that needs it e.g. helping out people who've been in a car accident, or victims of a mugging. It's an offense not to help.
The French idea of patriotism is not necessarily all about flag waving...
Feb 10th, 2015, 08:50 AM
#39
Original Poster
I too would rather know what a person thinks and hear the hateful thoughts that are out there than stick my head in the sand and remain ignorant. Hard to fight against ideas that remain unexpressed, and harder to prevent people from acting on their thoughts if you don't know what they are.
This appears to be a tension between the French concept of free speech and the concept I was raised with. I see the reasoning behind both points of view, but the one I have lived with is ingrained in me.
Understanding the differences among our fundamental concepts is fascinating to me, and I do not feel the need to impose my own view on the French or on the posters on this message board, wherever they live. But I believe I would have some trouble adjusting to a society where it is not allowed to wear the symbols of any religion in a school or public administration.
This appears to be a tension between the French concept of free speech and the concept I was raised with. I see the reasoning behind both points of view, but the one I have lived with is ingrained in me.
Understanding the differences among our fundamental concepts is fascinating to me, and I do not feel the need to impose my own view on the French or on the posters on this message board, wherever they live. But I believe I would have some trouble adjusting to a society where it is not allowed to wear the symbols of any religion in a school or public administration.
Feb 10th, 2015, 09:29 AM
#40
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But I believe I would have some trouble adjusting to a society where it is not allowed to wear the symbols of any religion in a school or public administration.>
a very very salient point and at the crux of the problem that many French I know seem not to realize as even my liberal French friends largely support the ban on head scarves in school and the burka in public.
a very very salient point and at the crux of the problem that many French I know seem not to realize as even my liberal French friends largely support the ban on head scarves in school and the burka in public.
