Can I trick the airlines?
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:00 PM
#61
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Why is this theory so hard to grasp???
Airline A (or let's call it AA) needs to compete with airline B (or let's call it BA) on certain route. Lets say it's JFK-MAN. Airline BA starts a sale on that route and has a non-stop flights. Airline AA wants to match the sale but does not have a non-stop between the 2 cities, so it matches it's fares with a connection in LON. Yet flights to LON are much higher. Do you see the dilema?
besides if some of you just took the time to read the CofCs of AA you would have found the following:
<i>Hidden City/Point Beyond Ticketing: Purchase of a fare from a point before the passenger's actual origin or to a point beyond the passenger's actual destination.
Where a ticket is invalidated as the result of the passenger's non-compliance with any term or condition of sale, American has the right in its sole discretion to:
1. Cancel any remaining portion of the passenger's itinerary,
2. Confiscate unused flight coupons,
3. Refuse to board the passenger or check the passenger's luggage, or
4. Assess the passenger for the reasonable remaining value of the ticket, which shall be no less than the difference between the fare actually paid and the lowest fare applicable to the passenger's actual itinerary</i>
so, to answer the OP, don't do it. Your return will be cancelled. Simple.
Airline A (or let's call it AA) needs to compete with airline B (or let's call it BA) on certain route. Lets say it's JFK-MAN. Airline BA starts a sale on that route and has a non-stop flights. Airline AA wants to match the sale but does not have a non-stop between the 2 cities, so it matches it's fares with a connection in LON. Yet flights to LON are much higher. Do you see the dilema?
besides if some of you just took the time to read the CofCs of AA you would have found the following:
<i>Hidden City/Point Beyond Ticketing: Purchase of a fare from a point before the passenger's actual origin or to a point beyond the passenger's actual destination.
Where a ticket is invalidated as the result of the passenger's non-compliance with any term or condition of sale, American has the right in its sole discretion to:
1. Cancel any remaining portion of the passenger's itinerary,
2. Confiscate unused flight coupons,
3. Refuse to board the passenger or check the passenger's luggage, or
4. Assess the passenger for the reasonable remaining value of the ticket, which shall be no less than the difference between the fare actually paid and the lowest fare applicable to the passenger's actual itinerary</i>
so, to answer the OP, don't do it. Your return will be cancelled. Simple.
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:53 PM
#62
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J9999-yes,if you have checked in at the ticket counter for an international flight. When I said "hold", it was meaning that they would be looking for you and paging numerous times before they would close out the flight. I know that my airline (especially domestically, when its the last flight of the night to somewhere) tries to wait a few minutes to see where the folks have gone. I quess I should have said-headcounts,tickets and bags better always match in this day and age!
Nov 25th, 2006, 09:59 AM
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Well, since I last visited this thread, I’ve found out some additional information. The news is mixed – at least for yours truly who hates to lose an argument.
The information comes to me courtesy a professor at our local law school, whom I met at a recent party. As his immediate escape from me was rendered difficult by the crowd in the room, I took advantage and cornered this poor soul into offering me his expert opinion on the subject of ‘hidden city’ ticketing and whether it constituted a breach of contract.
His answer was, ‘no’, for consumers to buy a roundtrip ticket from A to B with the express purpose of obtaining a cheaper passage to/from an intervening stop C does NOT, in his expert opinion, constitute a breach of contract on the part of the consumer/passenger. No, not even allowing for my point that the contract is performed, not on the basis of mileage flown, but on the basis of destination. (He also said contracts had nothing to do with Ethics, but I decided to avoid that discussion as being hopelessly convoluted.)
A second legal beagle consulted also did not, at least unreservedly, consider hidden-city ticketing to be a breach of contract. Rather, he hedged by saying it depended on how specific was the wording of the contract.
The thing is, neither of these individuals’ opinion alters, for all intents and purposes, certain realities for consumers. Even if the airlines’ response to hidden-city ticketing falls less under the specific category of ‘punish the contract-breacher’ and more under the general category of ‘no-shows’ (which one is considered to be if one misses one or more segments without informing the airline or its agent first) the outcome for all practical purposes seems to be the same. All no-shows, not just those of hidden-city ticket buyers, would seem to result in the subsequent legs of the ticket being canceled, which depending on just when in the sequence of events this occurs, will have greater or lesser practical consequences for said passenger. And the airline will cancel ALL succeeding segments, not just the one immediately succeeding the no-show, since they have reserved – fairly or not – the right to re-sell unused seats in any way they can, including as part of a multiple as opposed to a single segment itinerary.
As for the instance in which one informs the airline, subsequent to ticket purchase, of one’s intent to change one’s original itinerary: whether the airline or its agent assesses any fee for such change, and/or any difference in fare, would seem to be another, separate issue that falls under the general category of ‘changes’. Fees or fare increases related to changes depend on any number of things: the fare rules of the original ticket, the status of the passenger with the airline/agent, etc. etc. Again, this is true for changes of any type, not just changes instituted in connection with ‘hidden city ticketing.’
So in a nutshell, this issue is easiest to understand in the context of ‘should I ever be a no-show’ or ‘is it cheaper to arrange a fare and change it later’ than in the context of tricking, or not tricking, anyone.
There were lots of interesting ideas introduced in this thread, but if I’m ever to get my share of the wine and beer, to say nothing of the chips, before kswl and 111op scarf them all, I must stop here.
The information comes to me courtesy a professor at our local law school, whom I met at a recent party. As his immediate escape from me was rendered difficult by the crowd in the room, I took advantage and cornered this poor soul into offering me his expert opinion on the subject of ‘hidden city’ ticketing and whether it constituted a breach of contract.
His answer was, ‘no’, for consumers to buy a roundtrip ticket from A to B with the express purpose of obtaining a cheaper passage to/from an intervening stop C does NOT, in his expert opinion, constitute a breach of contract on the part of the consumer/passenger. No, not even allowing for my point that the contract is performed, not on the basis of mileage flown, but on the basis of destination. (He also said contracts had nothing to do with Ethics, but I decided to avoid that discussion as being hopelessly convoluted.)
A second legal beagle consulted also did not, at least unreservedly, consider hidden-city ticketing to be a breach of contract. Rather, he hedged by saying it depended on how specific was the wording of the contract.
The thing is, neither of these individuals’ opinion alters, for all intents and purposes, certain realities for consumers. Even if the airlines’ response to hidden-city ticketing falls less under the specific category of ‘punish the contract-breacher’ and more under the general category of ‘no-shows’ (which one is considered to be if one misses one or more segments without informing the airline or its agent first) the outcome for all practical purposes seems to be the same. All no-shows, not just those of hidden-city ticket buyers, would seem to result in the subsequent legs of the ticket being canceled, which depending on just when in the sequence of events this occurs, will have greater or lesser practical consequences for said passenger. And the airline will cancel ALL succeeding segments, not just the one immediately succeeding the no-show, since they have reserved – fairly or not – the right to re-sell unused seats in any way they can, including as part of a multiple as opposed to a single segment itinerary.
As for the instance in which one informs the airline, subsequent to ticket purchase, of one’s intent to change one’s original itinerary: whether the airline or its agent assesses any fee for such change, and/or any difference in fare, would seem to be another, separate issue that falls under the general category of ‘changes’. Fees or fare increases related to changes depend on any number of things: the fare rules of the original ticket, the status of the passenger with the airline/agent, etc. etc. Again, this is true for changes of any type, not just changes instituted in connection with ‘hidden city ticketing.’
So in a nutshell, this issue is easiest to understand in the context of ‘should I ever be a no-show’ or ‘is it cheaper to arrange a fare and change it later’ than in the context of tricking, or not tricking, anyone.
There were lots of interesting ideas introduced in this thread, but if I’m ever to get my share of the wine and beer, to say nothing of the chips, before kswl and 111op scarf them all, I must stop here.
Nov 27th, 2006, 06:14 AM
#66
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I trust the same doesn't happen to you, Sue:
A physician was talking to an attorney at a cocktail party when the two were interrupted by another party attendee who asked the physician for some "curbside consult" medical advice.
The physician responded to the person who seemed relieved and moved on.
The physician then turned back to the attorney and said, "Does that ever happen to you? How can I discourage people from interrupting to ask for free medical advice? What would you do?"
The attorney responded, "Oh, that's easy. When they do that to me I simply mail them a bill for services rendered."
The next day, the physician got a bill from the attorney in the mail.
A physician was talking to an attorney at a cocktail party when the two were interrupted by another party attendee who asked the physician for some "curbside consult" medical advice.
The physician responded to the person who seemed relieved and moved on.
The physician then turned back to the attorney and said, "Does that ever happen to you? How can I discourage people from interrupting to ask for free medical advice? What would you do?"
The attorney responded, "Oh, that's easy. When they do that to me I simply mail them a bill for services rendered."
The next day, the physician got a bill from the attorney in the mail.
Nov 27th, 2006, 07:30 AM
#67
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duty: I follow what you're saying, and I guess we differed on the definition of "hold."
Still, I'm not sure the situation described by the OP applies to what you said.
First, and obviously, if he's not taking the continuing flight, there would be no checked baggage to match (unless he's particularly devilish and checks an empty suitcase just to drive the airline nuts).
Second, it would appear, under your definition of "hold," there is little or no inconvenience to the other passengers if all the airline is going to do is page you a few times before closing the door.
Still, I'm not sure the situation described by the OP applies to what you said.
First, and obviously, if he's not taking the continuing flight, there would be no checked baggage to match (unless he's particularly devilish and checks an empty suitcase just to drive the airline nuts).
Second, it would appear, under your definition of "hold," there is little or no inconvenience to the other passengers if all the airline is going to do is page you a few times before closing the door.
Nov 27th, 2006, 10:50 AM
#68
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Wow, does this mean that I win anything, Sue? You know how I love to win. 
(Just kidding.)
I really think that airlines can be accommodating, but you can't let them think that you're trying to cheat them. As I mentioned, my two experiences about skipping and changing flight segments have been positive.
(Just kidding.)I really think that airlines can be accommodating, but you can't let them think that you're trying to cheat them. As I mentioned, my two experiences about skipping and changing flight segments have been positive.
Nov 28th, 2006, 09:12 AM
#69
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This uestion has generated such interest why don't you just give it a go and suck the consequences, then telling us how you got on!!
The only thing you need to remember is to make sure you have no hold bagagge or you'll cause a major terrorist incident with you not on second leg of flight..
I reckon fortune favours the brave!
The only thing you need to remember is to make sure you have no hold bagagge or you'll cause a major terrorist incident with you not on second leg of flight..
I reckon fortune favours the brave!
Nov 28th, 2006, 11:35 AM
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<b>Government Report Upholds Airline Policies On Hidden-City Ticketing</b>
<i> Allowing Customers To Beat Pricing System Would Force Fare Increases
The airline industry has praised a new government report that opposes any moves to allow passengers to engage in the practice of hidden-city ticketing, and defends airline ticketing practices.
The report by the U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO) is a setback for lawmakers who sought to legalize hidden-city ticketing and other methods of beating the airlines' complicated pricing systems. Such practices would actually drive up ticket prices, industry officials claim.</i>
read the article here.....
<b>http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ZCK/is_32_11/ai_77136538</b>
<i> Allowing Customers To Beat Pricing System Would Force Fare Increases
The airline industry has praised a new government report that opposes any moves to allow passengers to engage in the practice of hidden-city ticketing, and defends airline ticketing practices.
The report by the U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO) is a setback for lawmakers who sought to legalize hidden-city ticketing and other methods of beating the airlines' complicated pricing systems. Such practices would actually drive up ticket prices, industry officials claim.</i>
read the article here.....
<b>http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ZCK/is_32_11/ai_77136538</b>
Nov 28th, 2006, 04:06 PM
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If people started taking advantage of hidden-city ticketing or back-to-back ticketing, airlines would raise prices to protect their revenues.Surprise!
I was a little surprised, however, to hear the labrynthine mess of airline fares called "a highly disciplined and evolved process of commodity pricing." Rrrright.
I was a little surprised, however, to hear the labrynthine mess of airline fares called "a highly disciplined and evolved process of commodity pricing." Rrrright.
Nov 28th, 2006, 05:48 PM
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Last November my sister and I flew into London and were to connect to Paris in 10 hours. We only had a small carry on. We missed getting to the airport on time and ended up taking the chunnel to Paris. When we arrived (very early at the airport) we were told our return tickets were cancelled, as we did not get back on the plane in London. We explained and were given seats. I said what should we have done in London, when we knew we couldn't get to the airport in time and the ticket agent said we should have called them and explained. Good experience, but could have turned out quite bad. I usually fly with United to Europe about 3 - 4 times a year, I thought that might have something to do with the reinstatement of our seats.
Nov 28th, 2006, 06:49 PM
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Airline tariff computation actually <u>is</u> "a highly disciplined and evolved process of commodity pricing."
Every airline has a department, usually called Operations Research or something similar (some running to <i>hundreds</i> of employees) whose only function is to maximize revenues by adjusting prices on every flight leg and segment the airline flies. (A leg is one takeoff and landing; a segment is multiple legs having the same flight number.)
The number of factors their models digest is staggering, as they account not only for day of the year and competitie factors, but such things as the bus and train lines' ability to serve Super Bowl and NASCAR traffic.
In one sense, ticket prices appear to be totally arbitrary, but in the real world they are cold, hard numbers that represent the epitome of <i>laissez-faire</i> capitalism, the system we defended against all comers for 50 years.
Would I try the hidden-city trick? I guess it depends on the differential between losing the return leg and the cost of booking separate legs. In the present instance, I might look at flying into FRA and back to LON on one of the cheapo intra-Europe carriers.
Every airline has a department, usually called Operations Research or something similar (some running to <i>hundreds</i> of employees) whose only function is to maximize revenues by adjusting prices on every flight leg and segment the airline flies. (A leg is one takeoff and landing; a segment is multiple legs having the same flight number.)
The number of factors their models digest is staggering, as they account not only for day of the year and competitie factors, but such things as the bus and train lines' ability to serve Super Bowl and NASCAR traffic.
In one sense, ticket prices appear to be totally arbitrary, but in the real world they are cold, hard numbers that represent the epitome of <i>laissez-faire</i> capitalism, the system we defended against all comers for 50 years.
Would I try the hidden-city trick? I guess it depends on the differential between losing the return leg and the cost of booking separate legs. In the present instance, I might look at flying into FRA and back to LON on one of the cheapo intra-Europe carriers.
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