Yes, they can get the bank account numbers off of a check, but those numbers have nothing to do with the numbers on my credit cards.

Rufus, since you said, "bank account" I thought you were speaking of the numbers on your debit card. If you meant they cannot get to your credit card account w/o the numbers then that is probably correct.

P_M: I should have included a reference to what my remarks were about:
"Credit card purchases increase my paper and time workload. A cross reference is necessary at the end of each month to be sure the bill is correct. Banks and merchants make plenty of mistakes. With cash, it's one piece of paper to file and I never look back.

The tools that card swipe thieves use are getting more and more sophisticated. I don't want to wake up one morning to find that my checking account has been emptied. So I limit the places where I swipe a plastic card."

This remark by NYCTS seemed to indicate that card swipe thieves can access your bank account if they have your credit card number.

OK I see what you mean, thanks.

If your Debit Card (which may or may not have an MC/Visa logo on it) is linked to a checking account and you swipe it and punch in your security code, sophisticated thieves can capture the information. 60 Minutes did a great piece on credit card (debit card) theft awhile back.

A little research into the rise of credit card fraud and identity theft would scare any normal person into a cash only lifestyle. Until you know a victim, most people go about life without giving any thought to the risks. Like I said, I simply do what I can to limit my risk.

I should add, I know a very successful photographer who had his identity stolen. The theft affected every financial aspect of his personal and professional life, including his credit rating and his ability to get credit. It was such a destructive mess, he had to hire a lawyer to wade through the damage and put his affairs in order. The work to set his record straight took almost five years and nearly drove the man crazy. I lived vicariously through his ordeal and now I view life a little differently.

NYCTS, based on your post at 2:29pm, it seems that you are continuing to mix apples and oranges regarding the risks with debit cards and credit cards.

No apples and oranges. All the swipe thief needs is your account number and your PIN. The swipe thief does not discriminate between Debit and Credit.

Sorry, but there is a huge difference in what the thief can do with the data. With the credit card, there is no access to a bank account. Apples and oranges indeed.

luv2cthings, instead of making fruit tarts, maybe you should do a little research. For one, try Clark Howard.

<i>"Feb 28, 2007 -- Criminal ring takes over swiping machines
A criminal ring based out of California has been moving around the country, stealing people’s debit and credit cards by taking over the card swiping machines incheck-out lines at retailers. Oftentimes, the cardholder never knows they've been a victim. What happens is the criminals either pretend to be technicians or they work in groups to distract cashiers, allowing time to install a small device on the card-swiping machine at the counter. Then, every time a customer swipes a card, the criminals capture the number and secret code entered. Within minutes, they have pulled hundreds of thousands of dollars out of accounts. It’s a very big, very efficient ring. So what can you do? Well, the greatest risk comes to those using debit cards because that money may not be replaceable. At least if you’re using a credit card you can file a dispute and get your money back. Other than that, make sure you check your statements religiously every month. If the criminals have created an exact duplicate of your card, it’s going to be hard to prove it wasn’t you making those charges. So, keep an eye on your accounts – always. And, if you can, use cash!"</i>

I never type a PIN into a merchant terminal - and I recommend everyone to do the same. The software that runs POS terminals isn't <I>supposed</i> to save the codes, but some poorly-designed applications do anyway, and in any case, sophisticated hackers can still read the cache where the program stored the number as it was typed in. I always run POS transactions as "Credit" and sign if required.

The only device I will surrender my PIN to is an ATM that is physically attached to a bank.

<i>sigh</I>

NYCTS: The article you cite is not as clearly written as it might be, apparently causing some confusion. Yes, if you use a debit card with a pin and it is connected to your bank account, someone can get your card and your PIN and clean out your bank account.

But if you use a credit card, it is not connected to your bank account, so a thief cannot access your bank account and clean it out no matter what. If a thief does get your credit card and use it, the most you'd lose is $50 if you notify your credit card company when you find out you've lost the card.

Someone did use one of our credit card numbers illegally a couple of years ago and charged thousands--our cc company (Chase) didn't even charge us the $50.

The vast majority of banks do not even bother with the $50 when fraud is involved..

The reality is there is not much you can do to prevent this kind of credit card number theft no matter how careful you are. If it happens, although I know it's annoying, it's no real danger to you, your credit rating or whatever. A few phone calls will put the incident behind you.

As I noted earlier in the thread, the American credit card industry seems not to really care. They could adopt the chip and pin system which is coming to Canada and is in use throughout Europe but you know something, that will cut down fraud perhaps at the merchant level. But it hardly helps on internet fraud.

But this is no reason to stop using credit cards for their convenience. I hear people say all the time they won't use their credit cards for small purchases because of this. But that's what credit cards are for.

But the point is well taken about using debit cards in lieu of a credit card. Don't do it. If the debit card number is compromised, actual cash leaves your account, your checks turn to rubber. Yes most of the time you get the money back but it may take some time. In the interim, you are up the creek without a paddle for the most part.

<i><font color=blue>"The reality is there is not much you can do to prevent this kind of credit card number theft no matter how careful you are. If it happens, although I know it's annoying, it's no real danger to you, your credit rating or whatever. A few phone calls will put the incident behind you."</font></i>

Sorry, but this a gross misstatement and belies the truth. For accurate information on this subject, you really need to speak to several victims, a lawyer, or have a conversation with a fraud investigator.

Sophisticated criminals who steal information from swipe machines create duplicate cards using your name but they create a change of address. Investigators told my photographer friend that this is most likely what occurred in his case. The criminals create a change of address and the true owner has no idea that the card number is actually being used because he doesn't see the billing statement that goes to the fake address. Since all the fraudulent purchases were made in the legal owner's name, all the payment defaults went on my friend's credit rating record with all credit agencies. If anyone thinks one phone call clears up something as deep and serious as this, they're kidding themselves or they've never gone through the trauma.

If someone manages to duplicate your card and use it in your name for a lengthy period of time, the damages are long reaching and insidious. Convincing credit agencies that you're innocent is costly and very time consuming.

NYCTS, thanks for bringing up the potential downfall of not keeping on top of your account activity.

<< The criminals create a change of address and the true owner has no idea that the card number is actually being used because he doesn't see the billing statement that goes to the fake address. >>

<< If someone manages to duplicate your card and use it in your name for a lengthy period of time, the damages are long reaching and insidious. >>

Whether you meant to or not, you've made a great argument for having and using online access to your accounts. To the extent possible, I check my accounts frequently online, and I have email notification when there is a new statement. I don't receive statements by mail anymore, since that is much more likely to end up causing problems with identify theft.

Sorry nycts...

Luv2 has the ponit...I monitor my credit card accounts daily whether at home or abroad via internet cafes....also my bank has been pretty good at picking up large purchases and contacting me if something seems fishy....the odds of this going on for a long time with a credit card are virtually non existant.

I had this happen to me 3 times in the last 25 years. Once it was caused by the theft of a renewal card in the mail...the other 2 times the card was cloned and used for a couple of purchases, one for $8,000. Since it is a credit card, no money left my account. A few phone calls, as I said, and it was done. The only inconvenience was changing the billing information for all the automatic payments that run through the account but you know something; everytime they change the expiration date I have to do that anyway!

Again, for the most part, credit card theft should not be the end of the world. If it happens to you, notify the card issuer they stop the card, issue a card with a new number and send you a list of charges and you indicate which ones are fraudulent and it's over and done with.

I would have to say your photographer friend might have been a bit lax or perhaps his bank was.

<i><font color=blue>"Whether you meant to or not"</font></i>

It is not my intention to tell people what to do. I'm a consumer like everybody else and I believe to each his own. All I can do as a contributor here is share what I do and explain why.

Clearly, there are numerous layers to fraud. Some is relatively innocuous while other forms can have devastating effect. Living in a cave and succumbing to fear is not a fun option. We do the best we can with the information that is available.

Fraud prevention experts say the only protection is to pay with cash. We know how impractical that is. So it seems to me, the next smart thing I can do is control the number of cards I own and control the places I swipe. For me, it's this simple. Carry enough cash to cover the small stuff and use the cards for the big things. This is what I do.

<i><font color=blue>"I would have to say your photographer friend might have been a bit lax or perhaps his bank was."</font></i>

Quite the contrary which is why his story sent shock ripples to all his professional friends.

The investigators never found the source or the culprit. They suspected a well organized ring. I don't know the percentage of users who fall prey. Banks often do not know when you're identity is stolen. In my friend's case, credit cards were not only duplicated, other accounts were opened in his name using his information but with an address change to another state. It was the address change that kept the flags from going up.

My friend's business draws a substantial income. He has a full-time accountant keeping track of the bills. No one had any hint that fraud had ever occurred until my friend optioned to finance a $40,000 scanner. Then the crap hit the fan.

NYCTS...

Hi...trust me I don't for one second disbelieve anything being said...I still find it hard to comprehend how from one compromised credit card account, a whole identity theft thing could have been opened...the credit card number itself should not lead anywhere unless the ring has compromised the bank's own computer network (not discount that possiblity) but that, as you yourself say, can happen anyplace, anywhere. Also as a precaution, most banks whenever a new address is requested, send a confirmation either gy e mail or snail mail to the old address just to prevent this sort of thing.

Oh well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one......