You might consider "A Thread of Grace" by Mary Doria Russell - it is set in a northern valley. It is a story about Italians hiding Jews during World War II - gives good insight to that period and the Germans stomping around Italy.

humpty, after a total of about 23 trips to Italy I now don't really want to go anywhere other than Venice. We've so far been 6 times for a total of 8 weeks (mainly in June, once in September, daytrip in December) and are now actually hoping to move there next year ! (Well, at least for a year.) Of course there are crowded spots but it's basically just on & immediately beside St Mark's Square and the Rialto Bridge, and the main drag between those 2 and the railway station at certain times of day, which you probably want to avoid once you've seen them. You only need to get a street or two away and it's fine, even more so when the daytrippers have gone - in fact most of the city is really quiet and peaceful.

In contrast I've just come back from visiting Florence for the first time in 19 years and didn't really like it - that seemed much more touristy and crowded, particularly with American teenagers and large Japanese groups. Partly I suppose it's the nature of the sights there - being inside museums & churches much of the time, there's much more of a problem with big tour groups getting in the way. Eating out was much more expensive than Venice and we weren't very impressed with what we had : we find we can eat well and not too expensively in Venice (I suppose in part that may be now because we know places, but never had a problem really).

Just picked up Barry Unsworth's Stone Virgin which is set in Venice in three different time periods. I haven't had a chance to read it yet but I like his other novels

"that seemed much more touristy and crowded, particularly with American teenagers and large Japanese groups"

Just like the Florence we know. We now drive to Piazza Michelangelo comment how lovely it all looks and drive off back to Pienza.

Venice : your description of the crowds sounds like San Gimignano, we stayed there for 3 nights. Left the town after breakfast each arrived back at dusk and thought it was the most beautiful place on earth. On the last day we stayed for lunch...it was hell on earth.

Do you know for the first time in a long time, I think I may be swaying. Why should a grumpy 42 year old deny a 6 year.

Any clues on where to stay : small, family type hotel say £100 ish a night?

Sorry for THE most inane comment but... what would we do with the hire car to get us back to Malpensa? Could we go to Turin (in and out of Malpensa) for 3 nights then leave the car at Malpensa and get a return train to Venice?

steviegene, sorry to hijack your thread.

humpty, yes, I would suggest getting the train beyween Milan & Venice. I'm not clear what your full itinerary would be, though ?

I'd say in Venice it's much easier to escape the crowds than in San Gim. - it is bigger and you don't need to leave town ! Like I said earlier, just avoid the areas immediately adjacent to St Mark's Square & the Rialto, and the main drag between those 2 & the railway station during peak hours, and you'll be fine.

Our favourite area is Dorsoduro which is close to the main sights but that bit removed from the San Marco madness. Being near the Zattere is lovely - a nice wide open promenade which is never crowded and has some nice restaurants and bars.

When we stayed in a hotel we stayed at La Calcina which is small and very quiet and civilised, but costs more than that I'm afraid. But right next door (on the Zattere) is the Pensione Segusa which I believe is cheaper and which I've seen good reviews for. But if you have a child, maybe a flat would be better - and it should be cheaper. Unlike here, you can rent flats for 3 nights in Venice - presumably as the vast majority of visitors don't stay any longer than that. The two we have stayed in are here -

http://realvenicevacationflats.com/index.html
http://www.trulyveniceapartments.com...?id=76&orseolo.

Possibly neither of those specific flats would be any good for 3 (?) of you (although I think Orseolo has a sofabed in the living room ?), but I can recommend the Truly Venice agency we used last time. (The first one is rented direct from the owner who just has that one house.)

I am staying in the Pensione Seguso later this month. After our first stay, they sent us Christmas cards for approx ten years, but because it was half-board, we never stayed there again. Now that requirement has been dropped and every room has its own bath, so we are happy to return. The location could not be better.

Donna Leone has had only bad things to say about visitors to Venice and has said she isn't sure she would move to Venice if she had to do it all over again. It is really hard to imagine most people visiting Venice for the first time not wanting to the area that encompasses piazza San Marco, the Dorosduro and the Rialto Bridge. Yet Donna Leone has called it a "bermuda triangle" in which everything nice about Venice is absent.

"Most tourists spend the major part of their time in that triangle," she says. "That's where it's very, very unpleasant to be at almost any daylight hour, at almost any time of the year," she says.

I'm not trying to discourage h-d from going, but I wouldn't paint too rosy a picture of it for a visitor who is only going to be there for 3 days.

zeppole, actually Donna Leon's 'Bermuda triangle ' is San Marco-Accademia-Rialto. The Accademia is admittedly in Dorsoduro but on the edge - and if you draw a triangle on a map between those 3 points, it doesn't actually include any of Dorsoduro.

Caroline

You have come very close to convincing me.

I will be in touch when we have sorted out the logistics later this week. Would really appreciate some advice as, clearly, Venice it not one of life's usual destinations.

If we have one over-priced, under-cooked, tourist meal there, I will simply sit and repeat "told you so" to the rest of the family.

humpty - well about the food - do your homework - your suspicions could well prove correct. Elsewhere in Italy reasonable, tasty food is plentiful but Venice can be a bad experience!

Caroline, why try to convince the unwilling? You are very generous to make the effort. My parents were strangely prejudiced against Venice until I finally insisted on a visit together. I think they stayed at the Danieli at least 3 times after that on their own.

Tarquin, who is counting the days (6)

We've done two long stays there, eight weeks each time, and loved Venice. Click on my name and you'll find a couple of tediously long trip reports.

We find Venice pretty special.

Humpty, if you do decide to stay & get accommo fixed up, if it's in a area I know I can recommend where to eat well and not too expensively.

"Elsewhere in Italy reasonable, tasty food is plentiful but Venice can be a bad experience!"

Never had bad meal in a total of 8 weeks in Venice. Didn't have a very good meal at all in a week in Florence & all were very overpriced.

Peter, when is your next trip ? Are you definitely going to be able to stay in the same apartment ?

Caroline, it will be March / April 2013, an age away. We've found a place in San Polo, which looks OK.

Caroline, here's where we will stay.

http://www.vrbo.com/149494#comments

Thanks Peter - I had it in mind it was Mar/Apr next year. That apartment looks nice - I love the sound of the large terrace - and I do like that square - whenever we've been there it's been just busy enough with locals, but still quiet. (But isn't it in Santa Croce ?)

How did your trip go?