Daniel_Williams

I know most Dutch people speak English (and often a few more languages) quite well. Nevertheless, I'm highly considering a trip to Holland in 2012 and thought I'd like to reach a point where I could stand a chance of interacting with restaurant staff/ store clerks in a polite manner, be understood and hopefully understand their response in Dutch. I know from the languages that I *can* do this in (English, French, Spanish) that this sort of ability uses only a small subset of the language. Plus, I think it'll be interesting and enjoyable to expose myself to a rich, historic language...not too far from German, which I took a semester of in university... so I'm hoping my brain might latch on to enough similarities between languages to be able to handle this challenge .

When I went to Belgium in the 1990s, I'd learned a number of expressions and managed an "ik heb een waterzooi alstublieft" in Ghent but completely crumbled in the ensuing aftermath. I'd like to do better this time around. There have been posts on this topic in the past, but not specifically addressing online resources to learn Dutch. All suggestions of Internet (or other) resources for those who have tried to learn Dutch (or have friends who did if you are Nederlands/Vlaams) would be welcomed, especially those with a systematic approach. (Verb conjugations, etc...) I've found a few on youtube typing in "Learning Dutch" and some seem better than others for basic learning, so if you recommend one of these even over another, I'd appreciate that.

I understand some parts of Holland speak dialect. This may seem like a weird question, but would Amsterdam be a good place to practice standard Dutch?

Thanks in advance, Daniel

StCirq

www.busuu.com

BBC languages on line, but I think they only have a "Quick Fix" course for Dutch, which is just basic phrases.

www.travlang.com

nytraveler

Um, actually Dutch is the closest language to English. And agree that I have never met anyone in Netherlands who didn;t speak English - often without an accent.

Applaud your desire to learn a little - but not sure how the pronunciation works (easy as in Spanish or complicated as in Franch).

Daniel_Williams

Thanks for the suggestions & encouragement!

So far in my perusing, I think I like the approach of the fellow's youtube postings below (Ron de Leeuw), who approaches things in a more systematic fashion than others I've run across. He's already getting me back in the groove of pronunciation and think I'm understanding some of the general trends for pluralizing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnTEs...feature=fvwrel

Best wishes, Daniel

logos999

In regard to dialects:

lower franconian:
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...rachgebiet.PNG

lower german: (Platt)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...undarten-2.PNG

To me, they all sound like "baby talk" . Awfully wrong to the common Bavarian ear. . And since they all speak standard German...

spaarne

I've lived in NL for about 4 years and have learned a bit of the language, now getting rusty. I bought the Rosetta Stone program to stay fresh. I think it is probably the best for beginners. SyberVision is also very good.

What you have to fight against when in Holland is that the Dutch will always reply to your Dutch in excellent English. I would then reply in French <i>excusez-moi</i>. That got them back to Dutch.

It was said that the people of Haarlem speak the best Dutch. Big city people, whether in Amsterdam, Paris, or New York always have a different way of speaking. I can go all day in the south of France with my French but not in Paris.

PatrickLondon

From the occasional references in books, I understand Amsterdammers are thought to have a distinctive accent, a bit rougher than others (though maybe this is a class thing?).

I also have the impression that, among themselves, people in border areas may well have a local dialect (Frisian, or whatever mixture is spoken where the Southern Netherlands, eastern Belgium and the Rhineland coalesce around Cologne), but I wouldn't dream of trying to cope with one of those on top of standard Dutch.

The most unfamiliar sounds for an English speaker are the vowel "ui" and the soft "g", for which you need a bit of phlegm: and the fact that some consonants get elided in practice - so "goeden morgen" comes out more like "hooya mawha" (but who is an Englishman to complain about that).

NinaSearching

The "g" is definitely a difficult, especially in the middle of a word. I always feel like I'm am about to spit.

Other than that, the vowel pairings are easy to do, difficult to remember:

ui = sounds like ouch, e.g. uit sounds like out
au / ou = also sounds like ouch
ei / ij = sounds like ay
oe = sounds like book, e.g. boek sounds like book
eu = sounds like o, e.g. neus sounds like nose

I agree, getting someone to speak Nederlands to you will be very very difficult. The minute you pause, or they hear an accent, or whatever, they will say "I speak English" (or just answer you in English). I always say, "Ik wil graag in nederlands proberen zeggen" (I would like to try to say in Dutch). (I'm sure the grammar is off here, but they generally understand what I mean.) I have found that it is generally older folks who will speak Dutch with me; I am taking class at university and I have yet to meet anyone under 30 who did not reply with, "why are you learning Dutch; it's a stupid language."

As for resources: I haven't found any that are really "systematic" as you say, covering grammar and the like (but then, I don't really care for grammar, so maybe I wasn't really looking hard). There is a wonderful podcast series on iTunes called "Laura Speaks Dutch" that is good for just getting the sounds in your head.

hsv

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIbVYFjaPVQ

travelgourmet

If you actually want to learn, the Rosetta Stone series seems to be the most highly regarded of the self-teaching options.

However, the next Dutch adult I meet that doesn't speak English will be the first. I wouldn't bother learning anything more than, 'Do you speak English?' and maybe 'Hello' and 'Thank You'. Personally, I don't even bother with that and just speak English from the start.

<i>Um, actually Dutch is the closest language to English.</i>

Not really. Scots is actually the closest to English, followed by the Frisian languages, which are spoken in parts of the Netherlands. Regardless, even Frisian and English are not mutually intelligible, so being 'closely' related will be of limited use in learning the other language. Sure, it will be easier than learning a tonal language, for example, but you aren't going to have much of a head start.

TommieG

The Netherlands has two official languages: Dutch and Frisian (spoken mostly in the Dutch province of Friesland in the north). Besides that, most parts of the country have their own dialect (for instances Nedersaksisch or Low Saxon along large parts of the Dutch-German border in the north-east), or accent (moslty the larger cities in the west speak general dutch, with a strong local accent).

Everybody speaks general Dutch(maybe with the exception of a local farmer in an area where they speak mostly dialect...), so do not bother with learning dialects or accents.

If you want tot say "I want to try it in Dutch' , say 'Ik wil het in het Nederlands proberen'. Hello = Hallo and Goodbye = Daag (or Tot ziens).

Good luck with learning of few basics!

Daniel_Williams

Thanks to all of you for all the suggestions (Rosetta Stone, Sybervision, noted). I especially have enjoyed reading each of your individual anecdotes and will investigate using Haarlem as a base.

NinaS: In some ways, your stories remind me of difficulties anglophones have trying to learn French here in Quebec... French-speakers sometimes tend (with often good intentions) to switch to English when the speaker pauses or an accent is detected. Although from what you describe, opportunities for Dutch language beginners may actually be harder.

The one thing that saddens me a bit which does differ from Quebec is reading the young people you meet describing it as a stupid language . From what little I know of the Dutch language, I think what a rich history; maybe the younger people will appreciate the language more as they get older?

Dank U zeer! Daniel

StCirq

<<I can go all day in the south of France with my French but not in Paris.>>

I don't get this at all. If you speak French, you can converse anywhere in France, except with someone who speaks Occitan or Provençale, maybe. The accent is different in the south, but it's exactly the same language

travelgourmet

<I>The one thing that saddens me a bit which does differ from Quebec is reading the young people you meet describing it as a stupid language . From what little I know of the Dutch language, I think what a rich history; maybe the younger people will appreciate the language more as they get older? </I>

I don't think they view it as stupid, just not overly useful. The Dutch economy is very globally-focused and the Dutch worker is globally-focused as well. Globally-focused = English language proficiency.

Also, with only 25 million speakers, it isn't worth dubbing TV.

NinaSearching

I agree with travelgourmet. When I ask follow-up questions, most say that it's not useful and difficult to learn. I was out with a group (~20 graduate students) this evening, and every single one said they consider their English better (grammatically speaking) better than their Dutch. Which is odd to me, since I've heard so many ppl say English grammar is almost nonsensical.

More anecdotes, but ... there was a very large recruiting conference on campus, with <100 companies represented. The brochure printed little UK flags next to the names of every company that did not require fluency in Dutch, only English. Even the Dutch companies (ING, Shell, Heineken) had UK flags.

Interestingly, I went to see Legally Blonde: The Musical at a theatre here, and it was performed in Dutch. But there are hardly any tv shows or movies that are dubbed in Dutch or even with subtitles.

Last thing I'll say ... these same people who discourage me from practicing Dutch, get very upset about immigrants not learning the language. So I think there's a complicated relationship going on there.

As far as using the language when you are here, I do think clerks, cashiers, servers, etc, are much more patient about it than the student / "professional" workers I spend my days with. Oddly enough, I've especially found the cashiers at the Albert Heijn grocery store very willing to help. They will repeat things 3 or 4 times, correct my pronunciation, and in general carry on fairly long (but still basic, given my vocabulary) conversations. Assuming there's not a line behind me, of course.

spaarne

<i>I don't get this at all. If you speak French, you can converse anywhere in France,</i>
They speak it slower in the south so I have time to absorb.

Dutch learning anecdotes;

I used to get into work a half hour early every day to study Dutch. I had a little book titled "Teach Yourself Dutch" or something like that. One day my Dutch boss came in early and asked me what I was doing. I told him. He roared out "Why do you want to learn Dutch? NOBODY speaks it except us!"

I lived on a busy street in Haarlem, the Spaarne (thus my handle on Fodor's). It is also the name of the river that runs through the city. I always parked my car on the street. One Saturday I went out with a bucket of soapy water to wash it. A car pulled up next to me and a crusty old man leaned out and asked for directions to the train station, in Dutch of course. I was almost done explaining the route, in Dutch of course. Then he shouted back at me in English "IN YOUR OWN LANGUAGE! IN YOUR OWN LANGUAGE!"

More to help you survive:

Treat all dogs with kindness. Do not say anything off about the queen. Stay out of bike lanes. Stay off tram tracks. Don't trust any driver to yield to pedestrians.

Go to the Hoppe at the Spui in Amsterdam after the offices close, 18h00. Go in the side door and speak American. You'll have friends in minutes insisting on buying you a beer. Do likewise. Do not leave your money on the bar. Have a jonge genever if you like gin.

Get the book "The Undutchables" by Colin White and Laurie Boucke. It is available in English and in Dutch.

travelgourmet

<I>Last thing I'll say ... these same people who discourage me from practicing Dutch, get very upset about immigrants not learning the language. So I think there's a complicated relationship going on there.</I>

How long are you planning on being there? A short-term expat is quite different from someone looking to settle for the long-term.

Daniel_Williams

No immigration, I'm just planning on vacationing in Holland (hopefully a few times in the Dutch/Flemish-speaking world in my lifetime).

Thanks, Nina and spaarne for your anecdotes! Nina, I find your comment interesting about cashiers/clerks and will keep that in mind. Spaarne, I felt for you having explained the directions after all your effort and to have the old man dismiss your effort . I hope others are more respectful when you give directions.

TommieG- Thanks for your words; I didn't know Frisian was an official language of Holland (or that Frisian even existed I'm ashamed to say) before this post.

Nina- By the way, thanks for your pronunciation suggestions earlier ... incidentally, that youtube site I mention above does a very good job with pronunciation (I like it so far, quite systematic and the teacher from Tilburg has a dry sense of humour). I even corrected there one groot misconception I had, that the "ij" is not always like a more dipthonged "I" but is sometimes a "schwa e" as in "menselijk".

Thanks to all again, Daniel

NinaSearching

Daniel -- A friend just introduced me to a new site, LiveMocha.com, that helps connect people to learn and practice languages.

There are flashcards and pronunciation exercises (in lots of languages), as well as an opportunity to sign up for a teacher or partner. Dutch is one of the language options.

www.livemocha.com

FoFoBT

To get yourself used to the rhythm of hearing Dutch (or Flemish), watch videos on the Dutch and Flemish TV channels web sites. Example: http://www.vt4.be/