Berlin's New Airport - "Shining Beacon or Waste of Money"
Mar 9th, 2010, 08:40 AM
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Berlin's New Airport - "Shining Beacon or Waste of Money"
Berlin's Airport - Shining Beacon or Waste of Money - NYTimes.com
Mar 9, 2010 ... Christoph Bangert for The New York Times. The view from the control tower at Berlin's new $3.4 billion airport, scheduled to open next year. ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/09/wo.../09berlin.html - 2 hours ago
Well Berlin is building a huge new airport - to replace two older airports - the in-town Tegel Airport and the way out of town Shoenfeld Airport and many locals seem to think it a waste of money. A third airport - Tempelhof- an icon from the Berlin Airlift in the 1950s- was closed a few years back and is not used for conventions, etc.
The spiffy new airport is also in Shoenfeld, in far eastern Berlin
The new airport should open in about a year
Mar 9, 2010 ... Christoph Bangert for The New York Times. The view from the control tower at Berlin's new $3.4 billion airport, scheduled to open next year. ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/09/wo.../09berlin.html - 2 hours ago
Well Berlin is building a huge new airport - to replace two older airports - the in-town Tegel Airport and the way out of town Shoenfeld Airport and many locals seem to think it a waste of money. A third airport - Tempelhof- an icon from the Berlin Airlift in the 1950s- was closed a few years back and is not used for conventions, etc.
The spiffy new airport is also in Shoenfeld, in far eastern Berlin
The new airport should open in about a year
Mar 9th, 2010, 10:29 AM
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Airports create the first impressions many people have of a city, especially for people who are coming from abroad. It's a stunning experience to come into a beautiful airport, it makes one feel welcome and it makes one want to return. If people have to go to your city, they'll go regardless of how miserable the airport is. But for most cities, a good airport is dressing for success.
Stephanie Mcnealy
http://www.famous-philanthropists.org/
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Stephanie Mcnealy
http://www.famous-philanthropists.org/
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Mar 10th, 2010, 03:36 AM
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stephanie - i guess that is why Berlin's new central train station - the Hauptbahnhof was designed to be so awesome- the gateway into the city and in the case of the new train station - the first central train station built in europe in about 100 years i guess - since it is right near the Bundestag, Reichstag and government offices made this all the more important.
Mar 10th, 2010, 04:17 AM
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Completely wrong location.
Berlin and its surroundings have unemployment rates of around 14%. Berlin creates an image of a bustling city, but there's hardly any serious business to be done. The economy concists of a gazillion unproductive public servants who are busy commuting to their ministry outfits in Bonn (!) which some economically challenged politicians of all colours aided by some unscrupulous lobbyists from North Rhine Westphalia still haven't managed to relocate to the nation's capital after more than 20 years of unification, a couple of employees from tourism and a few lobbyists. There is no serious finance industry, hardly any legal industry apart from lobbying outfits and practically nothing in any of the productive sectors. So basically the airport gets built on subsidies from the state and the prodcutive Western Federal states and cities of Germany to please the vanity of a deranged capital and its demented politicians (of which the reasonably pragmatic or lazy ones woud probably prefer to continue flying out of TXL as its much easier to access from their preferred living quarters in Charlottenburg, Wilmersdorf and Tiergarten) on money the city doesn't have, but is still very efficient in demanding from properly governed parts of the country. To make matters worse, the airport gets built to the East of the city, close to the no-man'sland near the Polish border.
The probably most sensible thing would have been to convert an existing former military airport between Berlin and Hamburg into a combined civilian airport for NorthEastern Germany and to connect it to both city centres by either high speed train or monorail. That way one arguably would have created better access to Germany's 2 biggest cities although some insecurity about the practicability of a dominant train access to such a solution remains.
The existing solution with the new airport is bordering insanity, though, and the funding behind it is dubious if not scandalous.
Berlin and its surroundings have unemployment rates of around 14%. Berlin creates an image of a bustling city, but there's hardly any serious business to be done. The economy concists of a gazillion unproductive public servants who are busy commuting to their ministry outfits in Bonn (!) which some economically challenged politicians of all colours aided by some unscrupulous lobbyists from North Rhine Westphalia still haven't managed to relocate to the nation's capital after more than 20 years of unification, a couple of employees from tourism and a few lobbyists. There is no serious finance industry, hardly any legal industry apart from lobbying outfits and practically nothing in any of the productive sectors. So basically the airport gets built on subsidies from the state and the prodcutive Western Federal states and cities of Germany to please the vanity of a deranged capital and its demented politicians (of which the reasonably pragmatic or lazy ones woud probably prefer to continue flying out of TXL as its much easier to access from their preferred living quarters in Charlottenburg, Wilmersdorf and Tiergarten) on money the city doesn't have, but is still very efficient in demanding from properly governed parts of the country. To make matters worse, the airport gets built to the East of the city, close to the no-man'sland near the Polish border.
The probably most sensible thing would have been to convert an existing former military airport between Berlin and Hamburg into a combined civilian airport for NorthEastern Germany and to connect it to both city centres by either high speed train or monorail. That way one arguably would have created better access to Germany's 2 biggest cities although some insecurity about the practicability of a dominant train access to such a solution remains.
The existing solution with the new airport is bordering insanity, though, and the funding behind it is dubious if not scandalous.
Mar 10th, 2010, 05:39 AM
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<i>The "Times" has a lot of nerve talking about crazy airports...</i>
<i>New York airports are the worst ever.
Tegel is kind of small and outdated</i>
Well, the article is about whether spending the money on the airport is a waste of money. That poorly received airports haven't seemed to stop New York from being immensely richer and more important than Berlin suggests that airports might not be the panacea that the boosters want to make them seem.
<i>New York airports are the worst ever.
Tegel is kind of small and outdated</i>
Well, the article is about whether spending the money on the airport is a waste of money. That poorly received airports haven't seemed to stop New York from being immensely richer and more important than Berlin suggests that airports might not be the panacea that the boosters want to make them seem.
Mar 10th, 2010, 06:08 AM
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<i>Knowing something about history of Europe might give a clue why New York is richer and more important than Berlin..
a hint : it has nothing to do with airports!</i>
Ummm... Which was the point, no?
a hint : it has nothing to do with airports!</i>
Ummm... Which was the point, no?
Mar 10th, 2010, 06:12 AM
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"The economy concists of a gazillion unproductive public servants who are busy commuting to their ministry outfits in Bonn (!) which some economically challenged politicians of all colours aided by some unscrupulous lobbyists from North Rhine Westphalia still haven't managed to relocate to the nation's capital after more than 20 years of unification,"
People argued that moving the capital to Berlin wouldn't cost so much since most of the bureaucracy would stay in Bonn. As soon as the decision was made, the tune changed to how sensible it'd be to move everything to Berlin
The reason why the federal departmens haven't completely moved to Berlin is that they aren't intended to ever completely move there. It was agreed that a part would stay in Bonn.
People argued that moving the capital to Berlin wouldn't cost so much since most of the bureaucracy would stay in Bonn. As soon as the decision was made, the tune changed to how sensible it'd be to move everything to Berlin
The reason why the federal departmens haven't completely moved to Berlin is that they aren't intended to ever completely move there. It was agreed that a part would stay in Bonn.
Mar 10th, 2010, 06:42 AM
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The most interesting tidbit for me was about Lufthansa's plans (or lack thereof) to offer longhaul flights to/from BBI. Their lack of interest to make BBI a long haul hub speaks volumes about the importance of this airport to LH and the German economy in general.
Mar 10th, 2010, 06:44 AM
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danon - Berlin thinks that spending money on a fancy airport is a good investment. That there are any number of successful cities with poor airport facilities casts doubt on the potential return on the investment.
Now, maybe if this expansion was done in conjunction with a move of one of the Lufthansa hubs to Berlin or maybe opening of a significant cargo hub, then it might make sense. But simply opening a new airport to serve existing capacity? Hardly seems like a sound investment.
Now, maybe if this expansion was done in conjunction with a move of one of the Lufthansa hubs to Berlin or maybe opening of a significant cargo hub, then it might make sense. But simply opening a new airport to serve existing capacity? Hardly seems like a sound investment.
Mar 10th, 2010, 06:46 AM
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>>The reason why the federal departmens haven't completely moved to Berlin is that they aren't intended to ever completely move there. It was agreed that a part would stay in Bonn.<<
Hans,
that is exactly what's so unbelievably irresponsible about German politicians. They do not have the foggiest idea about sensible costs and financing, nor do they care. They have absolutely no hesitation about wasting taxpayers' money on maintaining 2 "capitals" for more than 20 years and have ministers and public servants commute between the 2 by planes, trains, cars and in the instance of some high-profile ministers by a combination of plane/train and car if the respective person has his/her driver bring the car to the destination and back - all paid by the taxpayer (which they don't care as taxpayers' money translates to state's money for which noone is responsible).
The German budget has shown a deficit for more than 20 years now. At the same time an economically challenged chancellor bashes the finance sector for excessive lending and borrowing practices and speculation. The banks most affected by write-offs during the recent financial crisis were predominantly public sector owned banks. If it weren't so outrageously sad, the irony of it would actually be funny.
Over a period of more than 20 years and in the case of (West) Berlin ever since the creation of the Federal Republic of Germany unbelievable amounts of subsidies have been sunk and burnt in completely useless infrastructure measures. Berlin has received subsidies which it consequently has used to subsidise the moves of companies to Berlin that were previously headquartered and registered taxpayers in the same German states and cities that were forced to fund Berlin's inadequate economy and inability to act economically responsible. In other words German states and cities were forced to pay for their taxpayers moves to Berlin (or other Eastern parts of the country).
Mostly scandals like these aren't being addressed publicly because of the fear of politicians about losing any federal election in the Eastern part of Germany (which is mostly run by governments by and large even less concerned about balanced budgets having a history of more than 40 years of constant increases in indebtedness and an additional 20 years period of being bailed out).
The decision to leave portions of the government in Bonn along with building a completely oversized airport, the use of which is not even clear to national carrier Lufthansa, is just one more episode in the sickening story of Germany's public finance and its politicians robbing its taxpayers and depriving future generations of their chance to experience achievements which once during a 30 year period in post-war Western Germany were possible for everyone.
Hans,
that is exactly what's so unbelievably irresponsible about German politicians. They do not have the foggiest idea about sensible costs and financing, nor do they care. They have absolutely no hesitation about wasting taxpayers' money on maintaining 2 "capitals" for more than 20 years and have ministers and public servants commute between the 2 by planes, trains, cars and in the instance of some high-profile ministers by a combination of plane/train and car if the respective person has his/her driver bring the car to the destination and back - all paid by the taxpayer (which they don't care as taxpayers' money translates to state's money for which noone is responsible).
The German budget has shown a deficit for more than 20 years now. At the same time an economically challenged chancellor bashes the finance sector for excessive lending and borrowing practices and speculation. The banks most affected by write-offs during the recent financial crisis were predominantly public sector owned banks. If it weren't so outrageously sad, the irony of it would actually be funny.
Over a period of more than 20 years and in the case of (West) Berlin ever since the creation of the Federal Republic of Germany unbelievable amounts of subsidies have been sunk and burnt in completely useless infrastructure measures. Berlin has received subsidies which it consequently has used to subsidise the moves of companies to Berlin that were previously headquartered and registered taxpayers in the same German states and cities that were forced to fund Berlin's inadequate economy and inability to act economically responsible. In other words German states and cities were forced to pay for their taxpayers moves to Berlin (or other Eastern parts of the country).
Mostly scandals like these aren't being addressed publicly because of the fear of politicians about losing any federal election in the Eastern part of Germany (which is mostly run by governments by and large even less concerned about balanced budgets having a history of more than 40 years of constant increases in indebtedness and an additional 20 years period of being bailed out).
The decision to leave portions of the government in Bonn along with building a completely oversized airport, the use of which is not even clear to national carrier Lufthansa, is just one more episode in the sickening story of Germany's public finance and its politicians robbing its taxpayers and depriving future generations of their chance to experience achievements which once during a 30 year period in post-war Western Germany were possible for everyone.
Mar 10th, 2010, 08:35 AM
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It's 30 km outside the city center (and to the South East, halfway to scenic Spreewald, which is economically irrelevant unless one is in the pickled gherkin business, maybe). This compares to TXL with about 10 km.
Overall it's just 5 km closer to the city centre of Berlin compared to Munich's infamous fog hole that's a EUR 50.00 cab ride from Maximilianstr. So it <i>is</i> far from the city centre.
Overall it's just 5 km closer to the city centre of Berlin compared to Munich's infamous fog hole that's a EUR 50.00 cab ride from Maximilianstr. So it <i>is</i> far from the city centre.
Mar 10th, 2010, 09:42 AM
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Hsv, While I agree with everything you said about the new airport and politics in general, I disagree on what you said about governments in Eastern Germany. Generalisations are not helpful at all. Saxony's government e.g. acts much more responsible than 2/3 of the Western state governments. Saxony's budget *is* balanced. Feel free to tell me in which Western State this is the case.
Mar 10th, 2010, 11:32 AM
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Local politics aside, who knows if the new airport will be a "good investment" . What does it mean anyway?
My parents took me to Paris when Orly was THE airport.
Has CDG been a "good investment" ?
When the old terminals at my city's airport were replaced by new bigger and more modern ones, it probably did not bring "money" to the city, but it added a new dimension to it and made traveling a heck more bearable. Now, if only there was a fast public transit into the city...
As a traveler, I was surprised how small Tegel was, but knowing the history of the city I understood.
Many airports are not very close to the center : Stockholm. Rome, Amsterdam... - a good train connection helps.
My parents took me to Paris when Orly was THE airport.
Has CDG been a "good investment" ?
When the old terminals at my city's airport were replaced by new bigger and more modern ones, it probably did not bring "money" to the city, but it added a new dimension to it and made traveling a heck more bearable. Now, if only there was a fast public transit into the city...
As a traveler, I was surprised how small Tegel was, but knowing the history of the city I understood.
Many airports are not very close to the center : Stockholm. Rome, Amsterdam... - a good train connection helps.
