Rien63

Thanks, haven't been to Casa Almirall, should be on the list for a risky Raval night in a not so distant future.

I, too, prefer Madrid to Barcelona. I have been to both cities several times and if I had to choose between them for another visit, it would be to Madrid.

I prefer the selection and the quality of the restaurants in Madrid. I also have had rude wait staff in Barcelona, but to be fair I have had more than my share of indifferent waiters in Madrid. And, probably most importantly, I definitely prefer Madrid's museums, hands down!

It is really a matter of personal choice. I really don't like Venice all that much either - so why I have visited there a half a dozen times u=in the past 15 years ...

I loved both Madrid and Sevilla from the first moment I arrived... and I'd love to go back to both.

I've not been to Barcelona, and after hearing and reading so many negative things about it, I'm not sure if I ever care to go. This thread is not doing anything to change my mind.
I've seen photos of the Gaudi architecture and it's not something I feel compelled to see in person, although I admit, it is interesting.

I would very much like to visit Girona and the northern part of Catalonia, and I've considered a trip where we'd stay in Girona, and take a day trip to Barcelona, just to say I went..

I also would want to visit Valencia, Malaga, and other Spanish cities I've not yet visited, before going to Barcelona.

The way Loacker felt about Barcelona was how my daughter felt about Paris. She was extremely disappointed and found the city "ugly", "dirty" and too crowded. She did like the museums and historical sites, but didn't appreciate the city itself.

I loved Paris, myself... though I have to admit that I liked Madrid more.
Madrid is a very underrated city. We spent a week there and I felt we only scratched the surface...

We were not over-impressed with Barcelona but loved Valencia, Bumble. We were there for 4 nights but could easily have spend a week there. it's a lovely city with lots of day trip possibilities, and great food.

and not so many tourists that it is completely overwhelmed, like Barcelona.

This is actually a very well informed guide to a "perfect weekend in Barcelona" without even mentioning Sagrada Familia! (but Raval, Eixample, Barceloneta, Poble Sec, Tickets, Bodega 1900, Quimet y Quimet, Miró, Montjuïc, MACBA, Hotel Neri and Domènech i Montaner) http://www.cntraveler.com/destinatio...-weekend-guide

I've been to both, Madrid and Barcelona, several times, both on business as well as on leisure trips.
And when someone asks me whether he should visit Madrid or Barcelona I tell him to sample both.

Though I perfectly understand that art lovers gravitate towards Madrid - if only for the big three museums.

I never experienced a rough, sleazy or unsafe vibe in Barcelona (aside from the pickpocket problem).

But maybe that is more a matter of your personal comfort zone and experiences.
When you walk the narrow streets of Raval or Barri Gotic at night, it's easier to feel intimidated than on Gran Via, perhaps.

Barcelona is, in my opinion, more related to cities like Berlin while Madrid may be more like Paris.

Someone wrote:

Here in Europe, Gaudi is not considered a great architect. In fact, Gaudi's buildings are considered as kitsch. Probably this is exactly the reason why they are so much admired by people who love Disneyland and are disappointed when they visit real European castles.
_____________________________________

I am sure this poster has canvassed Europeans from those who can see the Northern Lights from their bedroom to Istanbul and Americans who have been disappointed by the 1,000's of European castles. I know I stand outside my home and ask that very question.
_______________

As someone who has visited Barcelona numerous times over the past 45 years, there is a variety of reasons for my return. The art of Barcelona is in the streets. The museums are secondary in Barcelona. There is an insanity and its own definition of beauty to Guadi. I am always curious to see the progress and the interpretation of his ideas, even though I hate the Passion Facade. It is a monumental task that rarely occurs on purpose in the modern world. Moderisme infuses the city and gives it a unqiue personality.

I like the variety of the often silly La Rambla to the elegance of the Passeig de Gracia. I love that the statue of Columbus is pointing toward Libya, not the new world.

I love the views from Montjuic and Tibidabo but I cannot stand the cheesy El Poble Espanyol.

Whenever we go, I try to dance the Sardana, for it is symbol of their culture and defiance during the Franco regime.

And we always try to eat things that are different.
_________

We all travel for different reasons. I try to leave home, home. I only expect to be partially entertained and understand I must participate. And there are various ways to be awed and disappointed including artistically, intellectually, sensually, historically, and linguistically.

Oh, yes as a full blooded American I hate Disneyland and do not understand the unique experience shared by one billion other people.

IMDonehere :-)

As for Gaudi's standing in Europe, his "great basilica has been built, mostly, from the entrance fees from Europe's agnostic tourists: it attracts 2 million visitors a year, more than the Prado and the Alhambra".
"Why Gaudí's Sagrada Família is a cathedral for our times": http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-for-our-times

We, too, were not as awed by Barcelona as we had expected - but those expectations are, I think, part of the reason we felt that way. We enjoyed the city but didn't love it, and that surprised us. We are from NYC, and love cities, so we were both surprised, but we are also very willing to return to see it with fresher eyes than on our visit 10 years ago. We love the Gaudi architecture, by the way, and found it thrilling to see it. We saw a lot that we enjoyed but also missed a lot that we'd like to return and see.

Some of the reasons why we were not as taken as we had expected might be:

-Barcelona is a large city and we were at the end of a 3-week trip, so we had less energy to get around. It was hard for us to figure out how to approach the touring.
-It was the middle of summer and very hot.
-We are not late-night folk, so adjusting to later hours wasn't easy and we also missed a lot of the evening culture & energy

We are both very eager to go back and revisit the city, and having learned that our energy flags, would now go earlier in a trip. We also know to manage our time differently, and spend time enjoying the night culture -- music, dance & food. And, planning the visit better so we are exploring different areas without having to walk for overly long stretches to get from place to place.

Just my thoughts - there's a lot to see and do, but approaching a large city is very different than visiting a smaller place, and requires more energy and more planning, I think.

hetismij2,


'But there again I have no desire to visit Paris even once so I am probably not the best person to ask.'


Up until very recently I wanted to see Paris in the worst way, but the more I learn about it the more I think I may not like it so much after all, and not worth the expense. My time/budget are not unlimited. All the news I've been seeing lately about ever-increasing theft, pick-pocketing strategies in the Metro, Louvre, at the Eiffel Tower doesn't help matters. Maybe it's nothing to get hung about and others can enlighten me on the subject.


And while I know this is totally unrealistic, I can't seem to shake the image of Paris I have from all those late '50s/early '60s black and white films of Godard, Malle, etc. All the boxed joints on the Champs Elysees would surely put me off. It's the norm in most major cities now I know, but I'm a romantic, what can I say.

The blessing to Barcelona's economy is tourism from cruise ships.

The curse to Barcelona's atmosphere is tourism from cruise ships.

The throngs of khaki-capris-with-fanny-pack tourists we saw when we visited Barcelona just a few years ago nearly obscured a delightful city. It took a bit, but we came away wanting to come back.

Catch the town at dawn or late evening, and there's enchantment there. Start touring at 10 a.m., and one is faced with a tourist tidal wave. To use rather ugly imagery, it's as though tourists have been vomited onto shore to make their way en masse up Las Ramblas.

But there IS a really intriguing city underneath all of that. It just takes some patience and planning.

Madrid does share elements with Paris in that it has many world class museums situated with huge parks and carefully mapped out avenues. We like it.

Rien63, we happen to love Paris, but I know what you mean about Paris of the 50s/60s. We saw the "Paris Vu Par Hollywood" exhibit in Paris in 2012, where Audrey Hepburn was plastered all over the area. I sighed and remarked about the glamour of that time. My husband, who had toured Paris in the mid-60s, said, "I remember bad toilets, rude waiters, and filth on the streets. I'll take the current version." In others words, movies and reality rarely match up.

AlessandraZoe,


'Rien63, we happen to love Paris, but I know what you mean about Paris of the 50s/60s. We saw the "Paris Vu Par Hollywood" exhibit in Paris in 2012, where Audrey Hepburn was plastered all over the area. I sighed and remarked about the glamour of that time.'

Glad I'm not the only one, but we WERE sold a bill of goods here in the US. I think we still are to some extent, especially in those glossy travel magazines.


'My husband, who had toured Paris in the mid-60s, said, "I remember bad toilets, rude waiters, and filth on the streets. I'll take the current version.'


My knee-jerk reaction is to say, well at least that was the authentic version before globalism/tourism, etc., but experiencing that 'authenticity' firsthand as your husband did is a whole other story. Thank you for the reality check!

Re: the difference between Gran Via in Madrid and the narrow streets of the Barri Gotic in Barcelona - I actually spent most of my time in Madrid, wandering the narrow streets of the Barrio de las Letras and the area around Plaza Mayor... We did stroll Gran Via a couple of times, and I actually found that more "intimidating", though I liked that street, too.... It's just a different experience than strolling the maze of narrow streets and small plazas...
Apparently if I stayed in the Barri Gotic, though, I may like Barcelona just fine, because I do love narrow medieval streets.... and that's the thing I also loved about Sevilla.

And there are two streets in Paris I never want to set foot on again, and that's Rue de Rivoli and the Champs Elysees. I'd definitely like to spend more time in the Bastille-Marais area, where our hotel was. I also love the Île de la Cité.

I wasn't overwhelmed by Barcelona either. I love art nouveau and I hate to hate but I really really do NOT love the work of Gaudi. I was expecting not to like that, and I wasn't surprised. Really do not like.

What I did love about Barcelona was serendipitously attending a concert at the Palau de la Música. Truly beautiful, and the concert turned out to be wonderful. What an absolutely LOVELY theater!

I wasn't in Barcelona long enough (3 days) so I know there are other charms that I haven't encountered yet. Las Ramblas and Gaudi are definitely not my thing, but I hope to return to see what else Barcelona has up its sleeve that has charmed so many others. It is an easy train ride from there to Provence so that alone I know is enough to bring me be back sometime soon...in fact I do remember a nice stop in Montpellier on the way to Arles...such a really lovely area.

I have been to Barcelona once.. sorry, not my cuppa tea. I too was disappointed as this was our first time to Spain .
Luckily we visited a small town called Tossa de Mar and fell in love with it..
The next time we went back to Spain we skipped Barcelona and flew to Mallorca, and stayed in a very small town there also.. Cala de Mar.. once again, loved it.

So while we loved our visits to Spain, Barcelona was not a factor.
We found it sad looking really.. a lot of graffiti and boarded up shops, and we found the food subpar.. but perhaps that's the result of mainly being in the touristy areas.. as in any city.

If I were teaching a course on travel, I would consider making this thread mandatory reading to illustrate the point that there are NO hard and fast criteria for travel! Some points I would highlight are:

- People travel for different reasons and with different expectations, they have different tastes, they encounter different things (whether by intention or by serendipity), they travel with different amounts of time and different levels of energy, etc.

- Preconceived notions of what one will enjoy might not match what one actually experiences -- but perhaps that is an insight that is only available to those who step outside their expectations.

-- Advance research might help one better match one's experiences with one's expectations.

What lessens would you add?

Travel is about the place, not you.

Do your research, but leave your preconceived notions at home.

Leave home, home.

Learn a few words of the language, it is a lubricant for knowledge. (Except in Paris.)

Unless someone is about to get hurt, have a sense of humor and adventure about what wasn't planned or expected.

Read other things than a travel guide, such as the literature and history of a place..

Unless you have a lethal food allergy, eat what is not familiar.

Some how I pushed the button too soon.

Practice relativism. (And please come up with a new joke that doesn't include relatives or Einstein.)

not sure what part of Barcelona people stay in to find it "sad with boarded shops" .
I suspect they have not seen the leafy, elegant Rambla de Catalunya or disigner stores and spectacular buildings on Passeig
de Gracia

I remember a poster who was complaining about graffiti and dirty streets
in Madrid
- they stayed near the train station( "to take day trips")and obviously never ventured to Serrano - Salamanca , Chamberi or other parts of the big city.

Some years ago, before our first visit to Barcelona ,most travel books
seemed to suggest one should stay near Ramblas .
Luckily, we stayed in a non touristy Les Corts and had a week to wonder around
different parts of Barcelona.
Been back eight times.

Every major city the world over has its run down parts. Every major city the world over has commercial districts with instantly recognisable (and argueably bland) international retail and food chains and a lots of people packed into the same few streets. If you only visit somewhere for a couple of days, base yourself in a very busy and characterless district and don't venture much beyond these environs then it's highly likely you won't be seeing that city - wherever it is - at its best.

Also, seeking out a Disneyfied experience of nothing but picturesque boulevards means you are quite likely missing out on street art, new and up and coming independant cafes, restaurants, regenerated cinemas and theatres, and basically anything that might be an unexpected ooo look at that moment, because it isn't in the guide books. Having a tick list just makes this worse - because if you don't discover anything serendipitously, every single attraction you have pencilled in already has an 'expectation' attached to it.

Also, I don't get the unfavourable comparison between Park Retiro and Parc Guell.

Parc Guell was meant to be a residential area and that is a huge part of the fascination for me - that someone had a vision to make this bizarre housing estate in a completely unique style. Park Retiro is a typical public park - lawns, fountains, glasshouses etc - a much better comparision imho would have been with Parc de la Ciutadella. A bit of research can make all the difference to your appreciation and understanding...

RM67--I could not agree more. One major rule of travel: After-trip Satisfaction is related to the pre-trip level of Expectation.

Plus the city one has visited and the city to which one returns are often different.

I loved my college daughter's Lower East Side apartment. On her street was a cute little bodega and a lovely little DR-run hardware store. Her building was ramshackle, her apartment layout was teeny and quirky, but I loved how the neighbor in the building next door played Cuban music.

Five years later....
Her apartment building is a condo. The DR hardware store? Gone. The bodega? A Starbucks.

On the bright side--the Starbucks does play Cuban music from time to time.

I agree with Loacker. Life style in Barcelona is great, but city is overrun by tourists, service is suffering as results and though sights are good, but not as god as in other Spain historic places.
In Madrid less people speak English and it gives it less touristy feel compare to Barcelona. In other words if you go just in Barcelona you would like it, but if you visit more cities you will be much less impressed with it.

It's all about the people you meet along the way. A wise person once said that for a woman a great trip is all about the shopping and for a man it's whether he had "romance" on his trip. I've had great trips at various places around the world and my wife has had great travels in other cities. We both "loved" Barcelona.

We visited Barcelona last fall for the first time and liked it. The apartment we rented for 7 days ,was in the El Born neighborhood; the food was great, people friendly (for the most part!), and the highlight was the La Sagrada Familia. That is reason enough to visit the city, I found it like nothing else I had seen before. While I prefer Paris and Rome, Barcelona is definitely worth visiting for a few days.

I think the first rule of travel is Leave home, home. We have never visited a city quite like Barcelona. It is a textured city with 1,000's of years of history but a modern attitude. We have been there 4 or 5 times over the years and never tire of it. I always visit Sagrada Familia and see how much progress they have made without me. I always re-visit La Boqueria, as it one of the best markets we have seen. And then we walk the city and that is when you escape the tourists from La Rambla and the essential Gaudi collection. One of our finds was a restaurant called Harrison Foc. The owner was a Harrison Ford fan and his posters and crap all over the place. Foc means fire in Catalan. It is now closed. But that type of quirky place is what you find when you walk on your own. We had to eat there and we still have an espresso cup with the name.

Madrid is a place to conduct business that fortunately has world class museums and is central to visit many nearby towns. I like to get lost in the curving streets near the Plaza Mayor.

<Madrid is a place to conduct business that fortunately has world class museums and is central to visit many nearby towns. I like to get lost in the curving streets near the Plaza Mayor.>

To each there own. While I will admit that Barcelona is a world class city, if all you think of is it's a place to conduct business that has good museum you have described 90% of all cities. The Retiro is one of my favorite parks as the Parque Oeste. There are quirky parts of Madrid, it's just that most tourist never venture beyond Sol.

But then I'm reminded of when I went to Brussels and I was told that everyone liked Brussels and I thought it was sterile apart from the Gran Plas. Different strokes.

Or as they say in Spain "Cada maestrillo tiene su librillo."

Rule No 1 of European city breaks : make sure the city is a long way from a cruise ship terminal.

Gaudi looks dated, they still haven't finished the cathedral, the traffic is dire, the Nou Camp needs pulling down (and will be) and the times we have been drug use is on open show.
I hate Barcelona.

Seville wipes the floor with Barcelona.

So no, you aren't the only one who wasn't blow away by Barcelona.

<Seville wipes the floor with Barcelona>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYDoSrGC9s

The fourth goal was well offside.

Kimhe

It's 3 years since we visited the mainland. Been lots to Mallorca.

We were shocked by the value for money, Menu Del Dia in Sevilla was E8 for a starter, main, dessert and glass of Tinto de Verano. Which is simply ridiculous in 2015.

Compare that to e13 for a beer in Norway last February.

We were amazed by Conil, really vibrant.

Shocked by Zahara de Los Atunes and how the wealthy classes had invaded it since our last visit 10 years ago.

My lasting memory of Andalucia is still the huge black Torres bull adverts on the hillside.

BritishCaicos,

:-)

<Menu Del Dia in Sevilla was E8 for a starter, main, dessert and glass of Tinto de Verano>

Going to Malaga city in a few days, and the same there, fine menu del dia for 8-10€ with wine included in lots of local atmosphere places. Even in Barcelona you find lots of the same outside the most beaten tourist track, three course menu del dia with drinks normally 9-12€. And yes, Norway is of course redicoulously expensive.

The first time we went to Barcelona in the early '70's, there was a restaurant that had a menu del dia, at that time called the cubierto, for $1.25 for 7 courses. Of course one course was the napkin and another the spoon.
________

Emily 71,

We have spent considerable time in Madrid, in fact, my wife would prefer if we rather skipped Madrid but I like the museums.

We walk every city we can just to see what we can see.

Two of my favorite smaller places in Madrid are Casa Hernanz, the hemp store near the Plaza Mayor. We ask friends and family to draw an outline of their foot and we bring back espadrilles for the women. And the Royal Tapestry Museum, which is a little out of the way and rarely cited on Fodor's by visitors.

We know Madrid, it just lacks charm for us.

Going to Malaga city in a few days, and the same there, fine menu del dia for 8-10€ with wine included in lots of local atmosphere places.>>

same in Valencia. And I found it difficult to get over the 4kgs of tomatoes for €1 in the market in Segunt.

I bought a mid range bottle of white (E2) from Mercadona.

I took it back and we drank it with barbecued king prawns. We agreed IT WAS FINE.

Until Mrs BC asked me how much it was, she then spat it out and said it was like vinegar. I asked her if the same bottle would have tasted better had it been £12 from Waitrose.

Friexenet is E3.50 a bottle, it's now £9 in Britain. We drunk far too much of it on honeymoon in Zahara all those years ago.

Going back to the caganers - does anyone know if there are any Christmas cards with one on it ? Might be amusing to send them to Barcelonaphiles.

No, but it sure beats those family pictures and the letters that start,"I can't believe another year has passed."

A good little business for someone !

This has been a very interesting thread to read. My family will be visiting Barcelona for the first time next summer for 5 days prior to starting a cruise. None of us is really enamored of the Gaudi buildings and we have no plans to even visit Sagrada Familia. We are more interested in visiting sites in the Barri Gotic, Parc de la Ciutadella and relaxing on the beach. We have some other things planned as well. I'm looking forward to it and I am sure we will have a wonderful experience. Will I want to return? Who knows. Of course, Paris is my favorite city so the odds may be against me :)

Sagrada Familia, like it or not , is worth a visit.
Nothing like it.

Have taken a few Mediterranean cruises out of Barcelona and quite frankly I hate the place. I have read so much about how pick pocketing is so rampant there. Since I don't like to arrive in a city where I'm taking a cruise out of the day of departure, I generally fly in the day before from wherever (the USA or sometimes London or Paris via Easy Jet). I now stay by the airport and will have nothing to do with this city. I was relating this during he one of my cruises while waiting for a show to begin. The person sitting behind me overheard what I was saying, tapped me on the shoulder and say you are quite right. They nailed us on our first day there. Hate the place.