walkinaround

>>>>>
to perpetuate batteries on people - touching someone without their consent in this manner is a battery.
>>>>>

oh please...file a police complaint for battery and you will be laughed at. i can't count the number of times that i have had my arm pulled by a begger. just last week in asia my arm was pulled by a man on the street who was trying to sell me something.

battery...what a joke. it's just life...deal with it and get on with it.

WillTravel

Fact is - it's very intimidating to be touched aggressively by men, especially to women. If you aren't female, which I think neither of you are, it isn't something you are familiar with.

WillTravel

When I was around Sacre Coeur, I had to basically cover up my hands and wrists at all times, because at every turn some man was trying to grab them and put a bracelet on, at which point they would demand money. But this is supposed to be accepted as a foreign cultural trait - how silly. I doubt Middle Eastern women would be any more thrilled by such occurrences than I would.

walkinaround

will...i in no way said that people should accept unsolicited touching. nor did i say that i or anyone else should be comfortable with it. nor did i make any cultural judgements related to it.

i only commented on the usefulness of classifying this as battery, assault or anything else. it is what it is...annoying, intimidating, invasion of your space, etc, etc. and it is a petty scam like many others. however, getting outraged (either here or whilst you are getting "battered&quot is not helpful. this sort of thing is unfortunately a fact of life and i just don't see the point of your legal outrage.

however, i completely disagree that this is a difference in culture that must be appreciated. that is also silly. nor do i even agree that it IS a cultural thing. it's just a scam like many others.

WillTravel

The legal term "battery" doesn't make inherent judgments as to the severity. It's merely a statement that people have a right to integrity of the person. Obviously being grabbed against one's will doesn't compare to being smashed up, but neither is acceptable.

And for the record, the men who perpetuate this scam are not Middle Eastern. Anyone who goes up to Sacre Coeur can make their own guess as to ethnicity, but it's really irrelevant, because this scam (which I'm glad you agree it is) is not a cultural practice.

kerouac

I said "African" before "Middle Eastern". Have you traveled much in Africa?
In any case, Sacré Coeur is a five-minute walk from my home, and I see these people 365 days a year. They can be annoying. I suggest that anyone who cannot face the situation not go there. End of story. Being annoying is not against the law, or a lot of tourists would be in jail.

WillTravel

It's not being annoying that's the issue, it's the attempts at small-time extortion. What they are doing is not legal, but it's quite plausible that they aren't the top priority of the police (just as with other low-level illegal behavior).

AnthonyGA

The men doing this are African. They can be quite persistent. French law is similar to English and American law, and touching you is potentially assault and battery, although it might be hard to get the DA to prosecute it.

I don't know if this sort of touching is common in Africa, but it doesn't matter, because Paris isn't in Africa (despite appearances). If these men can't learn French culture, they're welcome to return to Africa and paw their fellow men and women there.

Don't be surprised if you don't understand what they are doing. I've seen them working on this scam for years, and I still don't know what the premise is supposed to be. I ignore them. If they harass friends or clients of mine, I tell them to go away.

nancicita

Thanks for mentioning the case of the Sacre Coeur. I will definitely be careful when I visit in August. Now one question - if I were to ignore those who try to harrass me (or put a bracelet on me, or touch me, or whatever that makes me feel threatened), and those people won't go away, what do I say to them that would make them leave?

I'm not paranoid, but I just want to be make sure that I know how to handle the situation. Afterall, I will be travelling by myself this time.

WillTravel

I didn't succeed in making them go away, but I did foil their attempts to tie bracelets on my wrists by just keeping my hands scrunched in my pockets, or my arms tightly folded.

scottkriss

I just wanted to add that my family wandered around Paris- 3 small kids in tow-just about everywhere. We rode the metro all over and we never felt unsafe. We were not harrassed at all. From personal observation those tourists who were obviously so seemed to attract more attention...the massive backpack, loud English, a camera around the neck. I think that is who the pickpockets are looking for. I had read all of the pickpocketing reports and was rather nervous; perhaps our kids scared them off!

nancicita

scottkriss, you have a good point.
On the contrary, when we got our money stolen on the metro, we weren't wearing big backpacks nor speaking English (my family speaks Chinese).

I should also mention that the same thing happend to my aunt's family in Paris. They had along with them two teenagers (family of four). They got their money stolen at the metro and sadly, lost all their credit cards and had only enough cash to go up halfway to the Eiffel Tower and to buy tickets to go home early.

nancicita

I should also mention that I think it is likely for Asian tourists to be targeted by thieves in Europe because a lot of them travel with expensive cameras and suitcases in hand...and pay for things with cash rather than credit card.

AnthonyGA

Asians seem to carry a tremendous amount of cash, rather than plastic, and they are even more naive than Americans or other Europeans, so they make great targets. They are trusting of other people who look Asian, which makes them special prey for Asian pickpockets and scammers as well.

nancicita

AnthonyGA, you are "right on the money."
Carrying large amounts of cash and expensive cameras is very common among Asian travellers (by this I mean mostly tourists from Japan, China, Taiwan, Korea). It may sound silly or even stupid, but there's a notion among Asians that paying by cash is more trustworthy (or real) than paying with a plastic card. It is hard for me to explain this whole concept, but I remember my father mentioning the need to be "secure" when travelling
(and by "secure", he meant having enough cash on you to pay for pricy things rather than being smart about where you're keeping all this money).

You can see the irony here...

I think the important thing to take from this is that if you attract attention (by looking like a tourist with big bucks, etc.) then that is what you're likely to get (and unfortunately, from thieves/pocket-pickers).

stokebailey

Hearing about the bracelet scam wouldn't keep me from Sacre Coeur, and appreciate being forarmed about that possibility. I read Orwell's Down and Out in Paris & London at an impressionable age, and am more interested in walking down Rue Myrha, mentioned in a different thread as the worst Parisian street, than in seeing the Tour Eiffel close up. Disney-fication doesn't appeal to us. I'm now just glad we didn't rent the apt. that Mappy.com shows as just a few streets from Myrha. Even Orwell didn't go as far down and out as he claimed.