Backpacking Europe
Dec 2nd, 2017, 05:46 PM
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Backpacking Europe
Hi, I am planning a trip to Europe with a few friends after we graduate from HS this June. It will be close to 30 days and we will using backpacks the entire way, no other luggage. We would be starting in Madrid, fly to Paris, then the train to Brussels, then to Amsterdam, then somewhere in Germany and Switzerland, and then to Florence and Rome. Any suggestions for where to stay in Switzerland and Germany? or Austria? Also, any suggestions about changes to our route? I Would love any input on different countries or cities to visit. We would most likely be staying in hostels and thinking carefully about our expenses, so any cheaper cities would be nice. We won’t be spending a ton of time in the more expensive cities, instead going to smaller towns nearby. Any advice would be appreciated!
Dec 2nd, 2017, 06:16 PM
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I think you may be trying to cover too much ground.
One thing you might want to consider is that the more locations you have and the fewer day trips you do, you actually save money. There are a lot of student discounts though, such as a rail pass.
Route depends on money. What the cheapest connections are. What’s your departure city? Why are you starting Madrid?
Germany and Spain are less expensive than other places. Switzerland is especially expensive. Italy is relatively cheap food wise, but it takes some effort in terms of research if you want something other than pizza.
You’re missing Venice. I wouldn’t skip that since you’re going to Florence and Rome anyway. And Florence was not my favorite city. You may want to add Naples if you have any interest in Pompeii. It would be a long day trip otherwise.
In Nuremberg, there is a hostel in the stables of the castle. It’s awesome. Google best hostels of Europe or something along those lines- google Hoscars, the hostel awards every year. I usually pick my destinations partly on unique hostels. I think there’s another castle hostel in Bacharach. There are a lot of amazing things to see in Germany.
Re: luggage. Unless backpacks are truly your preference, I’d do a small wheeled carry on. Make sure it fits European carrier requirements. It makes it more difficult to overpack, and wheeled suitcases are actually easier to maneuver in trains and on transit.
What are your actual interests? Budget? It’s difficult to suggest places without knowing more about you or your friends.
I think all of you really need to buy some guidebooks. Maybe one guidebook per country, and have each person pick out stuff they really, really want to see. Cut countries that are inconvenient or too expensive or don’t really call to you. Look up atlas obscura, watch some rick Steves, think about the places you learned about in school that you really want to see in person. Then map it out, with travel times included. And come back and give us a better idea of what you want the trip to look like.
One thing you might want to consider is that the more locations you have and the fewer day trips you do, you actually save money. There are a lot of student discounts though, such as a rail pass.
Route depends on money. What the cheapest connections are. What’s your departure city? Why are you starting Madrid?
Germany and Spain are less expensive than other places. Switzerland is especially expensive. Italy is relatively cheap food wise, but it takes some effort in terms of research if you want something other than pizza.
You’re missing Venice. I wouldn’t skip that since you’re going to Florence and Rome anyway. And Florence was not my favorite city. You may want to add Naples if you have any interest in Pompeii. It would be a long day trip otherwise.
In Nuremberg, there is a hostel in the stables of the castle. It’s awesome. Google best hostels of Europe or something along those lines- google Hoscars, the hostel awards every year. I usually pick my destinations partly on unique hostels. I think there’s another castle hostel in Bacharach. There are a lot of amazing things to see in Germany.
Re: luggage. Unless backpacks are truly your preference, I’d do a small wheeled carry on. Make sure it fits European carrier requirements. It makes it more difficult to overpack, and wheeled suitcases are actually easier to maneuver in trains and on transit.
What are your actual interests? Budget? It’s difficult to suggest places without knowing more about you or your friends.
I think all of you really need to buy some guidebooks. Maybe one guidebook per country, and have each person pick out stuff they really, really want to see. Cut countries that are inconvenient or too expensive or don’t really call to you. Look up atlas obscura, watch some rick Steves, think about the places you learned about in school that you really want to see in person. Then map it out, with travel times included. And come back and give us a better idea of what you want the trip to look like.
Dec 2nd, 2017, 06:34 PM
#3
What luggage you take is largely irrelevant. Backpacks are easier on stairs, wheeled luggage is easier everywhere else. I get the same amount of "stuff" in the 22 inch two-wheeler I use now as I did in a backpack.
If this is your first trip to Europe I recommend reading "The Rough Guide to First Time Europe" and Rick Steves' "Europe Through the Back Door". The latter has excellent advice on planning an itinerary. Do remember that it takes two nights in a place to get one full day, and that traveling between places always takes longer than you expect. (I once had a two hour flight from London to Nice consume eight hours actual travel time.)
You have the right idea about flying into one city and out of another, but you are trying to cover too much ground in between. If you are on a budget the first place to cut is Switzerland which would bust a much more generous budget.
For train info see seat61.com. I have found the Thomas Cook Rail Map of Europe useful for planning. For cheap flights in Europe see skyscanner.com, also Easyjet and Ryranair.
If this is your first trip to Europe I recommend reading "The Rough Guide to First Time Europe" and Rick Steves' "Europe Through the Back Door". The latter has excellent advice on planning an itinerary. Do remember that it takes two nights in a place to get one full day, and that traveling between places always takes longer than you expect. (I once had a two hour flight from London to Nice consume eight hours actual travel time.)
You have the right idea about flying into one city and out of another, but you are trying to cover too much ground in between. If you are on a budget the first place to cut is Switzerland which would bust a much more generous budget.
For train info see seat61.com. I have found the Thomas Cook Rail Map of Europe useful for planning. For cheap flights in Europe see skyscanner.com, also Easyjet and Ryranair.
Dec 2nd, 2017, 07:35 PM
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Thanks for the replies! I kinda had the feeling to we were stuffing to much into the trip but there’s just so much to see
. We don’t really have a reason for starting in Madrid, other than we were trying to go from west to east. Out of these cities or countries, which would be the recommended starting point? We agreed our budget, not including airfare, would be around $3500-4000 for each person.
. We don’t really have a reason for starting in Madrid, other than we were trying to go from west to east. Out of these cities or countries, which would be the recommended starting point? We agreed our budget, not including airfare, would be around $3500-4000 for each person.
Dec 2nd, 2017, 09:11 PM
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Starting point and ending points largely depend on flights. It's a lot more expensive for me to fly in or out of Italy or Spain, for example- I can save a lot of money on flights into or out of Germany and the UK or Sweden. (I mean, I know the last two are not on your list. Just using that as an example)
But speaking of the UK- I'd possibly consider adding London to your itinerary. It's an expensive city in many ways, but it has several free, and glorious museums.
But speaking of the UK- I'd possibly consider adding London to your itinerary. It's an expensive city in many ways, but it has several free, and glorious museums.
Dec 2nd, 2017, 09:27 PM
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darn. same person as marvelousmouse, I apparently just never logged out of the test account I had made during the posting issues. sorry!
that's probably about $1000 in lodging-could be less but to be on the safe side, and so 2500-3000 in food/transportation/entertainment. So it's important to get your itinerary figured out to see if it will be sufficient. It would not be for me, but I tend to spend a lot of money on activities and food.
When you book hostels, take into account location and how that might translate into money spent on transit. I stayed in a very central hostel in Paris for a few days and then one in a much less central area because I wanted different amenities. My hostel price decreased by a few euros, but the amount I spent on metro actually doubled. So sometimes what looks like a better deal really isn't.
and also, for that long of a trip, you'll want to do laundry, so book hostels with laundry strategically. You can wash stuff in the sink, but I find that more of a hassle than it's worth at a hostel, because you may not have space to dry it.
also, either pack a quick dry towel, or know how much a towel will cost at each hostel. Most hostels charge you for towels and locks, a few have neither.
that's probably about $1000 in lodging-could be less but to be on the safe side, and so 2500-3000 in food/transportation/entertainment. So it's important to get your itinerary figured out to see if it will be sufficient. It would not be for me, but I tend to spend a lot of money on activities and food.
When you book hostels, take into account location and how that might translate into money spent on transit. I stayed in a very central hostel in Paris for a few days and then one in a much less central area because I wanted different amenities. My hostel price decreased by a few euros, but the amount I spent on metro actually doubled. So sometimes what looks like a better deal really isn't.
and also, for that long of a trip, you'll want to do laundry, so book hostels with laundry strategically. You can wash stuff in the sink, but I find that more of a hassle than it's worth at a hostel, because you may not have space to dry it.
also, either pack a quick dry towel, or know how much a towel will cost at each hostel. Most hostels charge you for towels and locks, a few have neither.
Dec 3rd, 2017, 04:13 AM
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"We would be starting in Madrid, fly to Paris, then the train to Brussels, then to Amsterdam, then somewhere in Germany and Switzerland, and then to Florence and Rome."
This is quite a bit of travel and travel expense for 30 days.
"We don’t really have a reason for starting in Madrid, other than we were trying to go from west to east. Out of these cities or countries, which would be the recommended starting point?"
I'd be tempted to fly into Paris and drop Madrid (time-consuming, cuts out a major travel leg.)
As bigtyke says, go to some smaller places too.
Paris, Rome and Florence won't come cheaply. A visit to Switzerland should be very short (extra-pricey.) Skeleton itinerary suggestion:
Paris (5)
Brussels (2)
Antwerp (2)
Amsterdam (4)
Germany (6) (Consider Cologne, Trier, Middle Rhine towns and castles, Mainz, Black Forest, Stuttgart, Freiburg... All are on the way south to Switzerland from A'dam.)
Switzerland (3) (Bernese Oberland region)
Florence (3)
Rome (5)
Note that a few friends traveling within Germany can do so really cheaply.
https://www.bahn.com/en/view/offers/...al/index.shtml
Germany has nearly 500 official DJH hostels:
http://www.jugendherberge.de/en/youth-hostels
This is quite a bit of travel and travel expense for 30 days.
"We don’t really have a reason for starting in Madrid, other than we were trying to go from west to east. Out of these cities or countries, which would be the recommended starting point?"
I'd be tempted to fly into Paris and drop Madrid (time-consuming, cuts out a major travel leg.)
As bigtyke says, go to some smaller places too.
Paris, Rome and Florence won't come cheaply. A visit to Switzerland should be very short (extra-pricey.) Skeleton itinerary suggestion:
Paris (5)
Brussels (2)
Antwerp (2)
Amsterdam (4)
Germany (6) (Consider Cologne, Trier, Middle Rhine towns and castles, Mainz, Black Forest, Stuttgart, Freiburg... All are on the way south to Switzerland from A'dam.)
Switzerland (3) (Bernese Oberland region)
Florence (3)
Rome (5)
Note that a few friends traveling within Germany can do so really cheaply.
https://www.bahn.com/en/view/offers/...al/index.shtml
Germany has nearly 500 official DJH hostels:
http://www.jugendherberge.de/en/youth-hostels
Dec 3rd, 2017, 04:14 AM
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Also... Middle Rhine Valley towns and castles:
http://www.loreley-info.com/eng/rhei...ity-cities.php
http://www.loreley-info.com/eng/rhein-rhine/castles.php
Trier: http://www.trier-info.de/english/sights-in-trier
http://www.loreley-info.com/eng/rhei...ity-cities.php
http://www.loreley-info.com/eng/rhein-rhine/castles.php
Trier: http://www.trier-info.de/english/sights-in-trier
Dec 3rd, 2017, 04:26 AM
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Airfare is the biggest single expense so getting that down can save hundreds. Do you live somewhere that you can fly AerLingus, Iceland Air or Norwegian? Those three have the cheapest flights from the US (assuming that's where you are from?). I often find very cheap flights to London so you could add just a couple days (everyone will say you need more but two or three is better than none) to London then train to Amsterdam, Belgium, Germany, France. Then either Italy or Spain but to do both you'd need to fly from one to the other. Then fly home from the last.
That is a lot to do in one month but if your goal is to see an overview of a lot of Europe it's not a crazy itinerary just as long as you know you are only getting a brief 'taste'.
Especially in the Netherlands and Belgium don't stay in Amsterdam or Brussels but rather Haarlem or Antwerpt, etc. Easily commute to the cities for day trips but the smaller towns are much cheaper and everything is so close in those countries.
Look at train passes but don't automatically assume they will be cheaper than point to point tickets. You can figure out what it will cost by going to the various country train websites and check routes. Lots of times you can save a lot by taking slower, regional trains rather than the more expensive intercity trains. Will take longer but cost less. Will take some time and research but you can definitely know what your train costs will be ahead of time.
How many of you are going? Don't automatically assume that hostels are cheaper than sharing a room in a small, inexpensive hotel. On booking.com you can filter by price and you can often find triples or quad rooms. I agree with the person who said don't try to 'save' money by booking a place outside of the city center. You'll eat up money on commuting in. It all depends, everyplace is different but keep that in mind.
That is a lot to do in one month but if your goal is to see an overview of a lot of Europe it's not a crazy itinerary just as long as you know you are only getting a brief 'taste'.
Especially in the Netherlands and Belgium don't stay in Amsterdam or Brussels but rather Haarlem or Antwerpt, etc. Easily commute to the cities for day trips but the smaller towns are much cheaper and everything is so close in those countries.
Look at train passes but don't automatically assume they will be cheaper than point to point tickets. You can figure out what it will cost by going to the various country train websites and check routes. Lots of times you can save a lot by taking slower, regional trains rather than the more expensive intercity trains. Will take longer but cost less. Will take some time and research but you can definitely know what your train costs will be ahead of time.
How many of you are going? Don't automatically assume that hostels are cheaper than sharing a room in a small, inexpensive hotel. On booking.com you can filter by price and you can often find triples or quad rooms. I agree with the person who said don't try to 'save' money by booking a place outside of the city center. You'll eat up money on commuting in. It all depends, everyplace is different but keep that in mind.
Dec 3rd, 2017, 04:32 AM
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More tools:
www.seat61.com the master of rail travel everywhere.
www.skyscanner.com is good for one-way flights on no-frills European airlines.
One essential rule-of-thumb: The earlier you buy air tickets, and fares on long-distance trains, the cheaper the price. Like, maybe two-thirds cheaper. This rule pins you down to a schedule while many backpackers think they can travel on whims and last-minute suggestions. Sorry; freedom comes at a price (you will learn this about many things in life.)
If you must start in Madrid, consider taking the fast train to Paris. At something over five hours, compared to an hour flight, it seems to be a disadvantage (and no cheaper) but the train is comfortable, more interesting, and it connects two city centres, avoid the time and costs of getting two and from airports and all the time eaten up by airline security measures. PS: I agree that backpacks are outdated for everything except climbing stairs, and you will want a small bag, like a day pack, to carry on planes.
www.seat61.com the master of rail travel everywhere.
www.skyscanner.com is good for one-way flights on no-frills European airlines.
One essential rule-of-thumb: The earlier you buy air tickets, and fares on long-distance trains, the cheaper the price. Like, maybe two-thirds cheaper. This rule pins you down to a schedule while many backpackers think they can travel on whims and last-minute suggestions. Sorry; freedom comes at a price (you will learn this about many things in life.)
If you must start in Madrid, consider taking the fast train to Paris. At something over five hours, compared to an hour flight, it seems to be a disadvantage (and no cheaper) but the train is comfortable, more interesting, and it connects two city centres, avoid the time and costs of getting two and from airports and all the time eaten up by airline security measures. PS: I agree that backpacks are outdated for everything except climbing stairs, and you will want a small bag, like a day pack, to carry on planes.
Dec 3rd, 2017, 06:46 AM
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Madrid isn't an expensive city, and I don't think Paris is, either. I suppose compared to some real small town, sure, but in general, they aren't as expensive as some big cities in the US nor other big cities in Europe. I haven't been to Amsterdam in a long time, so can't comment on its relative expense. Switzerland is a little more, but I haven't found it as dire as people claim it to be in cost. Germany isn't bad.
So I don't think the itinerary is that bad.
The train to Paris from Madrid definitely does not take only 5 hours. It takes 10-20 hours, depending on time and if overnight or not. I think the train is about 6.5 hrs from Barcelona alone, and that's a couple hours from Madrid. I would never do that myself, I agree with flying, which will be cheaper anyway and MAdrid is an easy airport to get to fairly quickly. There are numerous cheap airlines flying that route, Transavia, Easyjet, etc and you can fly for only about 50 euro in 2 hours.
So I don't think the itinerary is that bad.
The train to Paris from Madrid definitely does not take only 5 hours. It takes 10-20 hours, depending on time and if overnight or not. I think the train is about 6.5 hrs from Barcelona alone, and that's a couple hours from Madrid. I would never do that myself, I agree with flying, which will be cheaper anyway and MAdrid is an easy airport to get to fairly quickly. There are numerous cheap airlines flying that route, Transavia, Easyjet, etc and you can fly for only about 50 euro in 2 hours.
Dec 3rd, 2017, 08:55 AM
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You are under 26 so can get a Eurail Youthpass that lets you chose your trains to take once there - in many countries can still hop on any train anytime and you will be taking a lot of trains -compare vs discounted tickets (which sold in limited numbers must be booked in stone months in advance to guarantee) that are typically non-changeable non-refunded - a railpass lets you freely change your plans once there. anyway for lots on trains and passes check www.seat61.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteve.com.
And use night trains when possible - get a couchette berth and cover large swaths of ground as you sleep -
I'd get a copy of Let's Go Europe as it is the best guide IMO about hostels and backpacking on the cheap.
And use night trains when possible - get a couchette berth and cover large swaths of ground as you sleep -
I'd get a copy of Let's Go Europe as it is the best guide IMO about hostels and backpacking on the cheap.
Dec 3rd, 2017, 09:44 AM
#15
There are very few night trains remaining. That is because for longer distances cheap flights make more sense, so there are not enough passengers.
Read this before deciding to buy a pass:
https://www.seat61.com/Railpass-and-...pass-guide.htm
$4,000 for thirty days is $133/day or 112 EUR. That is not a terrible budget, especially as you can share room costs. Go here:
https://www.lonelyplanet.com/places
Click on Europe, then on each country you want to visit, then Survival Guide, then Money and Costs.
Read this before deciding to buy a pass:
https://www.seat61.com/Railpass-and-...pass-guide.htm
$4,000 for thirty days is $133/day or 112 EUR. That is not a terrible budget, especially as you can share room costs. Go here:
https://www.lonelyplanet.com/places
Click on Europe, then on each country you want to visit, then Survival Guide, then Money and Costs.
Dec 3rd, 2017, 12:27 PM
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Thank you guys for all your suggestions! I’m going to have to look into a lot of this stuff and talk to my friends. Does anyone have any suggestions on some good day trips( or overnight) to see out of these cities?
Dec 3rd, 2017, 01:19 PM
#17
Yes, but first you need to pick your cities. I suggest starting in the south and working north - things will get warm in the south... You all need to spend some quality time with glossy guidebooks picking what you want to see - but read those two I listed as well to get a handle on HOW to plan and travel.
Dec 3rd, 2017, 01:50 PM
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Also, see how many days you actually have in those cities before even considering day trips. In Europe, attractions are rather dense. I didn’t get to many of my day trips, because my list of stuff to see in Rome and Paris got so long that day trips did not make much sense.
Dec 3rd, 2017, 02:00 PM
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The efficacy of a Eurail Youthpass depends on whether you want to have flexibility to chose what trains to take once there - if so vs fully flexible full fare tickets a pass for your plans could be good.
But if not a series of discounted tickets could well be better and is for most as they are not going all over Europe as yous are and that is fine too for a first trip.
And with the pass you still have to pay for mandated seat reservation fees of $10-15 for fast trains in Italy and Spain - less in France but much more on Thalys trains Paris-Brussels so those add up and you are taking several of those. But again the key is if you wish flexibility to chose what trains to take once there or have all your trains booked in stone weeks before to get the discounted tickets - most folks are happy with that.
The old benefit of a railpass was that you could hop any train anytime but now with mandatory seat reservations in more and more countries that is out. And again you are taking many trains requiring them. But still if flexibility is desired then a pass probably in your case would be cost-effective it seems.
Now Switzerland is a place where a Swiss Travel Pass could be a good deal depending on what you will be doing - many folks here have said Swiss Passes were a good deal as they cover not only trains but lake boats, postal buses, city transports and give free entry to nearly 500 museums and sights. for lots on Swiss trains check www.sbb.ch and www.swisstravelsystem.com.
But if not a series of discounted tickets could well be better and is for most as they are not going all over Europe as yous are and that is fine too for a first trip.
And with the pass you still have to pay for mandated seat reservation fees of $10-15 for fast trains in Italy and Spain - less in France but much more on Thalys trains Paris-Brussels so those add up and you are taking several of those. But again the key is if you wish flexibility to chose what trains to take once there or have all your trains booked in stone weeks before to get the discounted tickets - most folks are happy with that.
The old benefit of a railpass was that you could hop any train anytime but now with mandatory seat reservations in more and more countries that is out. And again you are taking many trains requiring them. But still if flexibility is desired then a pass probably in your case would be cost-effective it seems.
Now Switzerland is a place where a Swiss Travel Pass could be a good deal depending on what you will be doing - many folks here have said Swiss Passes were a good deal as they cover not only trains but lake boats, postal buses, city transports and give free entry to nearly 500 museums and sights. for lots on Swiss trains check www.sbb.ch and www.swisstravelsystem.com.
Dec 3rd, 2017, 05:33 PM
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Rather than thinking East to West, do some reading and decide what cities actually interest you the most. Then put together the itinerary.
Without knowing if any of you have intense interests in some particular art or sport or music, etc., no one can have specific advice. There are, however, some cities that seem to me to have a younger vibe or more universal appeal than others. Examples: I prefer Madrid, but my students preferred Barcelona. They gave a slight edge to London over Paris. They all loved Rome. Everything you see will be of some interest, and you will likely return many times. Still, the trip will be more meaningful if you see things that most interest you at this time in your lives.
Small towns are great! It is fine to see some and to stay in them. However, do not stay in small towns or the country and plan on commuting into cities. That just wastes time and money.
Without knowing if any of you have intense interests in some particular art or sport or music, etc., no one can have specific advice. There are, however, some cities that seem to me to have a younger vibe or more universal appeal than others. Examples: I prefer Madrid, but my students preferred Barcelona. They gave a slight edge to London over Paris. They all loved Rome. Everything you see will be of some interest, and you will likely return many times. Still, the trip will be more meaningful if you see things that most interest you at this time in your lives.
Small towns are great! It is fine to see some and to stay in them. However, do not stay in small towns or the country and plan on commuting into cities. That just wastes time and money.
