Hi LB,

>The kids definitely want to go and I cannot imagine it. <

They are too young to understand the enormity of the event.

They must see for themselves, even if it is only a remnant.

While on line to visit the Jewish memorial sites in Prague, we were behind several teenagers who were there just to please their parents. They were joking about what they really wanted to do.

An hour later they were in tears.

((I))

We lost a number of distant cousins at Auschwitz. And a cousin with whom we never knew existed until about 15 years ago was just a child when he and his parents where some of the last leagl Jews to leave Germany in December 1939. He lost his grandparents and many aunts and uncles.

We visited Auschwitz a number of years ago and our travel agent was a Holocaust survivor. She insisted we go to Auschwitz and we did. One of my teachers in graduate school was Tom Keneally, who wrote Schindler's List (it was called Schindler's Ark in the rest of the English speaking world, but his American publisher thought Americans would be confused by that name.) Tom is a Roman Catholic Australian who studied to be a priest when he much younger. His feelings were as heartfelt as someone who lost a relative.

There is a quiet horror to Auschwitz. It is a memorial not by a well-known architect that is designed to evoke emotion but one that does so naturally. When we entered Auschwitz I envisioned and heard the small group of musicians who greeted the prisoners and were supposed to lull them into a sense of calm.

Coincidently on the train ride from Krakow to Prague, we shared a comaprtment with Sol and his family and a German doctor. Sol told us how he started screaming at the tour guide at Auschwitz, because he denied Polish complicity.

It means different things to different people.

Thanks for responding Ira and PM. The sight of all these 30+ Auschwitz threads was just so upsetting to me this morning until I realized what had happened (Sophie, the student wants survey responses). I have been to Yad Vashem in Jerusalem, many Holocaust museums in various cities (DC, Paris, London, etc). I had the privilege of being escorted in DC by the director during a private tour and I broke down when I saw the cart full of shoes, many of them children. I lost many, many family members at Auschwitz and just can't imagine how I would react. My 82 yo mother, a child hidden in France at a convent during WWII, also can't understand why the girls would want to go.

My father was hidden in Budapest by Raoul Wallenberg and I am very interested in seeing that city. We might decide to visit Miskolc, where my mother's family originated, and Sut Mahr, where my father's family lived. But, I just can't think about visiting where so many perished.

But, you are right. For the younger generation, they should go. They need to see for themselves that even in a place where millions were so cruelly massacared, flowers now grow, grass rolls in the wind and the sun shines. We must never forget!

LBloom, while your sensitivities and feelings are yours, I urge you to encourage your young relatives to go. Perhaps even with you along. If only the entire world could go, with a guide along to provide a personal touch. Given guidance, it's a very moving and instructive experience.

While I'm not Jewish, I found it easy to identify with those who suffered at the hands of the Nazis. Having the benefit of age, it's easy to see parallels to other instances of 'man's inhumanity to man', whether pogroms or under Stalin or Pol Pot or in Rwanda or............ It was amazing to me how much documentation there was, and how those who participated were convinced and convinced others that their deeds were 'righteous'. Even today, some Germans and Austrians I've known have a strange way of divorcing themselves from any knowledge/awareness, however distant. A fellow I knew, for example, would have been born about 1920 in Germany....when I once asked him what he did during WW2, he just kind of blew it off, as tho he spent the entire time peeling potatoes. That entire generation "knew nothing", despite personal involvement.
And yes, it could happen again, and not just to Jews. So awareness and education are needed.

<<My father was hidden in Budapest by Raoul Wallenberg and I am very interested in seeing that city.>>

A great great man . . .

The single most striking fact about the Holocaust from a Hungarian perspective is that Hungary had the second-most victims even though the Holocaust did not reach Hungary until 1944 because the government was a Nazi ally and only lost what little control it had over internal affairs when the war had unquestionably turned against the Germans.

To know more about the heroic exploits of Raoul Wallenberg, the most definitive work is John Bierman's "Righteous Gentile", Viking Press, NY, 1981. An excellent bibliography and several pages of photographs highlight the book.

15-year-old Elie Wiesel (we are two months apart in age) and his family were caught in the spring of 1944 Nazi trap, set by Hungary's "willing helpers" (hilfwilligers)and transported to Auschwitz (now Oswiecim). Elie survived to beccme the holocaust's most learned and honored survivor. He was awarded The Nobel Peace Prize in '84. I am honored to have been in Elie's company several times over the years...always an illuminating experience. If you haven't read any of his related books, please do. "Night" and "Day" would be a good start.

stu tower

Tower, I too have spoken with Elie Weisel on several occasions. The synagogue I belonged to outside Chicago used to host him one weekend every year for many years. The first time we met, I was determined to speak with him about my family, as my grandmother always claimed we were related. I waited patiently for my turn in a reception area (during the Oneg Shabbat after services). When my patience subsided, I called out to him in Hungarian, and suddenly the Red Sea parted and we had a very lively conversation. He enjoyed hearing his native tongue in a place he did not expect it. He is a great man indeed and while I can't say his books are enjoyable (because of the topic), they are necessary.

You might enjoy the fiction of Julie Orringer, who wrote The Invisible Bridge. She writes about Hungary and Central Europe during WWII. The book is based on characters modeled after her family.

P_M, would agree that Auschwitz-Berkenau is a place to tour if possible. Indeed reminder of brutality. And I added Berkenau because this was a large additional facility constructed for butchering Jews and others. I can still visualize the rails leading into that portion of the compound with the boxcars of poor souls not knowing their fate. Just as PalenQ says. Yes, Aduchamp1, the displays of personal belongings in glass cases is sobering indeed.

So one should get a guided tour from Krakow and then take time to wander and mull it over. By the way, as a new resident in the area I've heard Elie Wiesel lecture several times. Son Timothy Longman also at BU as director of African Studies Center has a
book out: "Christianity and Genocide in Rwanda."

Bill in Boston

Hi! My husband and I are going to Poland in Oct. As long as we're telling personal stories: I am a retired pastor and was for many years involved in the Jewish-Christian Dialogue within my demonination in our area. One colleague was among those who presented a successful resolution at our national Synod asserting that the Jews did not kill Christ. How sad that we had to do that! Perhaps too little, too late,but such actions do help to educate for the future. We were the second "group", following the Catholic Church, to take this action. I nearly did a doctorate in Holocaust studies. FYI I believe that the only program like this at least in the US is at Clark University in MA. Also, the church I was serving at the time, sadly, had a significant group of Anti-Semites. Welcome to the conservatives of NH {:-( That's not to exclude the suffering of Poles, Hungarians, gypsies, Catholics and handicapped people who were exterminated by the Nazis. Anyway, some were not very happy with me because every year I preached about Yom Hashoah and encouraged the congregation to attend Jewish services in our area.

We, like others of you, have gone to several Holocaust museums in the states and in Israel. Sadly, our time at Yad Vashem was limited. FYI you could spend the better part of a day there. We missed so much! So we are strongly motivated to visit Auschwitz-Birkenkau. We have struggled w finding a good website to help us w this. Thank goodness for Fodors. However, I am a bit confused by the posts here as well as by the Auschwitz site which isn't clear about their guides - like whether they have guides for less people before 10 and after 3.

So, I' m going try to be organized here w my questions and I'm hoping those w the most recent experience w the 10 to 3 thing, as we're now in that high season,can help me to gather a concensus. I apologize in advance for the number of questions I have and thank any of you who can give me help.

1. We will have a rental car, so if there is adequate parking we can easily be at Auschwitz before 9 am. That gets us off the hook for the "supposed" tours that are actually only glorified car or bus services. And we could easily meet a guide there.

2. That raises the biggest questions: tours and tour guides. We'd prefer a private tour or a group no bigger than 6 or so. I tend to ask a lot of questions which is unfair to a large group. And we'd very much prefer private moments and time to linger where necessary. A good private tour guide could teach us soooo much and still give the time we need.

a. Does Auschwitz have tour guides before 10 and after 3 that will take smaller groups?
b. There seem to be wide differences about whether you can come in w your own guide pre 10Am or post 3PM. Can anyone assure us here and/ or perhaps recommend a guide. I'll email the guide who was mentioned but we may not be able to avoid the cost of going in her car. Maybe she'd ride w us so that we'd pay the gas expenses.
c. Someone mentioned bringing in your own guide to walk around w you WITH the larger groups. I don't know how that would work.Is it realistic? Would we sort of lag the group or would it give us the opportunity to branch off on our own? Or is it a way around the "use our large group guides only" rule in the middle of the day?

3. On our own:
a. Are there signs and descriptions in English so that you really can learn from what's there?
b. Better,of course, would be a guidebook. It'd have to be a "go here,then go there" sort of thing to be efficient. And,of course, cover much of what a guide might provide. Would it be disturbing to others to be reading it to each other? Can you commend specific guidebook(s) so thatwt might be able to buy ahead?
c. I don"t suppose Auschwitz or some other vendor rents a tape recorder or other digitized audio tour? Gee, it would be nice to have an non-internet android app for my husband's cell or similar for my iPod or iPad (:-)

4. There's a museum. At Auschwitz, right? Is it large? How long will that take for a pretty good visit?

5. Birkenau:
Sounds like a very different deal. Free? and yet in some ways more moving - amazing.
a. Will we need to drive to another parking lot?
b. Are there any restrictions like the 10 to 3 thing?
c. What about guides - from Birkenau or outside ones?
d. Any other things we might not think of that are unusual?

6. The Schindler Museum:
So glad someone mentioned that! We will have been to the Warsaw memorials by then,but we understand there isn't really a museum there. We'll look up admission fees.
a. Where is it wrt the camps? Again, another parking lot?
b. Advice on how to approach the various floors or whatever.
c. How long will it take to do better than a cursory and less than whole day there?

Thanks in advance for any and all help!

I can't answer the particulars because I did not visit Auschwitz, but I can say that there is no problem in joining a tour starting in Krakow; our host where we stayed offered the opportunity in the same breath as he offered a tour of the salt mines, which I did visit. Unless time is really short, I would not worry about the particulars. I am sure that the tourist office (on the Rynek, the outside of the Cloth Hall building, facing St. Mary's) can provide all the needed details.

As for the Schindler museum, my impression is that the tours offered of the Kazimierz district (the former Jewish Ghetto)include a visit to the W.W.II ghetto and the Schindler factory.

6. The Schindler Museum is really the Krakow Under the Occupation Museum and it's wonderful. It's located in the old Schindler factory administration building in Podgorze.
a. (I have no idea what wrt is). I took the tram there and walked the last bit but there is street parking in front of the museum. There also may be a parking lot but it's rather in the middle of an industrial area so you should not have any problem parking. What do you mean by camps? Auschwitz? It's no where near Auschwitz. It's in Krakow.

b. It's chronological. You start at the beginning and work your way to the end.

c. I spend 2 hours but if you watch every video (survivor stories) you will be there all day. I watched part of a couple of videos and that was enough for me.

I'd say about 3 hours would give you a good representation for the museum.

<< We will have been to the Warsaw memorials by then,but we understand there isn't really a museum there. >>

I'm not clear what you mean by this. There is the Warsaw Uprising Museum. Again, another wonderful museum. I highly recommend you seeing this as well.

I absolutely loved Poland, especially Krakow. There is quite a bit to see. I used a private guide, Marta. If you are interested, her email is:
[email protected]

Correction - the Krakow Under the Occupation Museum is not in Podgorze but in Zablocie. It's not far (7 minute walk) from Ghetto Heroes Square and Under the Eagle pharmacy.

Hi LB,

> I just don't understand the motivation behind visiting.<

For some of us, it is in our blood.

For most of us, it is something that they have to see for themselves.

((I))

As a retired Protestant pastor I did appreciate your thoughtful comments...as one visiting Auschwitz-Birkenau out of a long time agonizing for what happened in Nazi Germany. As a side bar, we just returned from an Elbe River cruise in E. Germany including firebombed and restored Dresden. Wars do bring out the worst in humankind.

We did have a conducted tour of Aushchwitz and were privileged to have an interview by one time prisoner-former museum director who just died. Birkenau is set apart a little distance further and not sure tours go there. I was grieved just looking at the tracks leading into this additional facility built because of all the incoming newly arriving Hungarian Jews. We walked down the tracks where incoming prisoners had no idea they would soon be killed. Not sure there is much to see except the barracks.

Whereas in Auschwitz you will be moved by the buildings with the pictures and the cases with piles of luggage, glasses, shoes, etc. Plus of course the gas chamber, oven, etc. Small papercover book for sale..."Auschwitz: a history" by Sybille Steinbacher.

We did see the Schindler factory entrance outside Krakow having just heard it would become a museum. Of course the film based on Schindler gripped many. Old Krakow (Kazimierz) is a fascinating place. More ideas if you wish later.

Bill in Boston (actually Watertown)

LBloom, I visited Auschwitz to pay my respects to your relatives and others that perished and suffered there. They deserve that. Never forget. I am sure you cannot but other people may and it is those that need to be reminded.

Treblinka?? Is there anything actually left to see or has something been reconstructed???

There is a car park in front of the new gates to Aushwitz with plenty of room for cars, vans etc.

We visited a couple of years ago with friends, a party of 4, and paid for our tickets and walked around on our own. We got there around 11am. There was no mention of having to be guided and we gained access to all the buildings on the site. I seem to remember that the signs were both in German and English.

Actually, I misstatd about a guided tour. That was in getting there with Eastern European land tour. We were on our own to browse through Auschwitz buildings and displays, also wander over to Berkenau entrance. As mentioned, a highlight was the interview with once Polish patriot Kazimierz Smollen who survived. This was on my birthday!

Dukey..Treblinka is within a small forest. The only two reminders are a large gravesite, asphalted over,memorializing the 800,000 who were kiled here, Close to that there is a large monument on a hill(where I recited kaddish as I do at all K-camps). The most memorable part of the grounds are about 7,000 granite stones of widely varyng sizes, representing the 7,000 villages, towns and cities where the victims originated.

I visited Auschwitz in July. There are two parts to the camp - Auschwitz I (which I believe was a Polish army base before the war), and Auschwitz II-Birkenau (a much larger camp, site the infamous "selections" which sent many prisoners immediately to their death upon arriving at the camp). There was actually a third camp, Auschwitz III, which was located adjacent to the IG Farben chemical plant, but there is nothing left to see here.

All visits start at Auschwitz I. This is where you buy tickets. There is a 20 minute film about the liberation of Auschwitz taken by the Red Army. Following the film, you begin a tour of Auschwitz I that lasts about 90 minutes. All visitors must go on a tour led by an official guide (although if you arrive very early in the morning or late in the afternoon, the tour may be optional). Tours are available in many languages. Tour participants wear headsets (like audioguides in many museums) through which you can hear the tourguide. This turns out to be a great idea -- it enables you to hear the tour guide very clearly despite the fact that there are many tour groups speaking different languages in close proximity of each other.

Auschwitz I was quite busy when I was there. The guided tours help manage the crowds so everyone gets a chance to see the camp and its exhibits.

After the tour of Auschwitz I is completed, you may take a free shuttle bus about 3 km to Auschwitz II where the tour continues (but because Auschwitz II is a much larger site, groups are more spread out and there is no need for headsets). Or, you may linger at Auschwitz I on your own, or you may visit Auschwitz II later on your own with no tour guide. I would recommend continuing the tour with the guide.

At the end of the Auschwitz II tour, you take the shuttle bus back to the starting point at Auschwitz I, or you may linger at Auschwitz II if you like.

Many tour companies run package tours from Krakow to Auschwitz and back, or you may take the public transportation from Krakow to Auschwitz and join a tour on your own. Even if you book a tour from Krakow, I believe you go on the same guided tour of the camp with an official tour guide, but you should doublecheck this.

I took public transportation because I thought I would want to spend more time than a packaged tour would allow, and I wanted to visit the former synagogue in the nearby town of Oswiecim. Be aware that the bus trip from the central bus station in Krakow (about 70 km) takes at least 1.5 hours each way, and that the train is even slower, and unlike the bus, doesn't drop you off at the camp (you have to find your own transportation from the Oswiecim train station to the camp). The public buses, whether they be full size coaches or mini-buses (about the size of the vans that rental car companies used to use at airports) are rather cramped, but they are cheap (about 12 zl. each way if I remember correctly).

I felt the official tour provided adequate time at the camp and there was no need to linger on my own. If package tours follow the same itinerary, they would provide an equal amount of time. I also never made it to the synagogue in Oswiecim - public transportation from the camp into town was infrequent (although I could have taken a taxi, I suppose), and getting back to Krakow from the town might have been a little more difficult than boarding a bus in the camp. The bottom line is that I probably saved some money by taking public transportation, but probably didn't see any more or less than had I gone on a package tour.

Be aware that there will be little or no time for lunch while you are on the tour, and that options within the camp/museum site are limited, though there was a small shopping center across the street from the camp with a few more options.

If you do take public transportation I suggest you leave Krakow early in the morning (I left the bus station before 9:30); each tour group has a limited capacity, obviously, and if you arrive too late you may find yourself on a much later tour. On the return trip, I would also suggest getting to the bus stop early, otherwise the bus back to Krakow may be full and you will end up waiting for the next bus.

To answer some other questions that were asked:

1. Parking seemed adequate (though I took the bus). There was a paved parking area (not all that large if I remember), but then there was a grassy field to handle the overflow.

2. The camp IS the museum. Auschwitz I contains brick buildings, many of which were used as barracks during the Nazi era. Today, these buildings house exhibits. The guided tour takes you through most of the buildings. Some buildings contain "national memorials" which were not part of the tour, though you can visit these on your own after the tour. Auschwitz II consists of the selection platforms, barracks, the ruins of the crematoria and a memorial. There are no exhibits per se inside these buildings. Information signs throughout the sites are in Polish. English and Hebrew.

If I remember correctly, Rick Steves suggests that it is possible to visit Auschwitz in the morning and Wieliczka salt mines in the afternoon. I suppose this is possible - especially if you have a car which would cut down on the travel times, and the salt mines are open late - but these two sites are in opposite directions from Krakow and I would not suggest trying to cram them into a single day.

I also went to the Schindler Factory museum in Krakow and, like one of the writers early, spent two hours but would have liked to spend a little more time. (I couldn't spend more time because they museum was about to close for the evening). The museum is a branch of the Historical Museum of the City of Krakow and its focus, as mentioned earlier, is Krakow under the Nazi occupation. This includes the experience of Krakow's Jewish residents, but the Nazi persecution and extermination of Jews and the Holocaust is not the primary focus. There is also very little reference to Oskar Schindler or the Spielberg film. You do get the see his office and there is a room next door with some information about him and the film, but that is about it. I still found the museum very interesting and the exhibits were very well done.