ATM Fraud!
 

I'm sure this topic has been covered ad nauesum here but it never hurts to relay news of ATM fraud and perhaps how to prevent it.
Folks report that after using their ATM cards in Italy, after returning home they got charges for several hundreds of dollars for ATM useage in Romania - even though they never set foot there. Theory is that some hidden camera recorded their PIN and then fraudulent cards were made up.
Tip- try to hide typing in your PIN in case there are mini-cameras stashed overhead - sometimes people with zoom cameras record you from afar to see which numbers you're typing. Tip - when typing in your code do some false typing - not really hitting the number and try to shield your fingers - with a newspaper maybe or hat?
Have others had this problem?
Hate to blame the Romany, gypsies in Italy, but they may have taken their street crimes of pickpocketing to new levels!

Dear PAL,

How does the person who is copying your PIN get your ATM card number?

Also, FYI, the Rom did not come from Romania. They originated in India.

((I))

This recently happened to a friend of ours who spent a month in Paris where he periodically used his ATM card to get cash.

Over the course of several days there were a rash of withdrawals, all made in the Paris suburbs. He did not lose his ATM card but somehow someone had apparently obtained either the PIN and/or the information encoded on the magnetic strip of the card and made withdrawals.

He is having a great deal of difficulty with the bank proving that he did not make the withdrawals.

Well i assume the camera gets the number when you're fiddling around with it - maybe this is why more and more you're asked for the security code on the back - but not at ATMs.

Actually the person involved i'm talking about were using a charge card and could dispute the charges - after a lot of rigamarole - using an ATM card that takes money out of your account will be harder to reverse - one reason you should tell you bank exactly what countries you're going to and don't want any transactions from other countries to go thru - like Romania.
Ira: I was remiss to make the link to Romany just because of the Romanian bank and the reputation on Romany in Italy preying on tourists - this was a whisical afterthought that would better have been left off.

And maybe you shouldn't have thousands of dollars in your ATM-linked checking account - have someone at home replenish it as you need it.

Really - how can they make a withdrawal without the card? It seems to me a pin number and no card would be of no use. Don't the ATM's take info off the card to access the account?

Something must be missing from this equation. The PIN number is of no value without the magnetic data stored on the card.

I saw this on Dateline. The bad guys put a false front thing on top of the card entrance slot. This false front captures ATM card data.

Some non-bank atms can be rigged to capture all card info without a false front.

On the report they had an expert who used to scam this way.

Be careful of the atms you use, even at home.

To emphasize what Ira said, while there may be a few gypsies in Romania, as there are everywhere in Europe and the Balkans, Romanians are NOT gypsies OR "the Romany." And, like in the other countries where they live, gypsies or "the Romany," are descriminated against in Romania.

Romany (or Romani) is the language of the Roma, who English speakers usually call gypsies. As Ira said, most experts believe the Roma came originally from northern India and parts of Pakistan, and their language is related to Indian language groups. On the other hand, Romanian -- the language spoken in the country of Romania -- is a Romance language derived from Latin.

On PalQs original point, I tried looking up ATM fraud italy and ATM fraud romania on google, and all I got were LOTS AND LOTS of references to ATM fraud in the US. Couldn't find anything specific to Italy.

Did find an article on Eastern European, mostly Romanians, committing the kind of credit card fraud you describe. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...722030,00.html
This article has some suggestions for preventing being a victim, and also has links to other articles describing the prevalence of ATM fraud in Britain. So -- there is lots of ATM fraud going on, but gypsies don't appear to be the ones committing it.

I guess the point is that dangers of fraud lurk everywhere in the world and we should all do our best wherever we are to avoid being crime victims.

From what I read, this usually happens on free standing ATMs where someone managed to modify the machine so that it allows the retrieval of the information encoded in the bar code. ATMs attached to bank buildings are probably more secure.

Something may be missing but it happened. the thought was they made new cards - obviously sophisticated if possible. Don't know what happened but it happened - reliable source says it happened to him and all he used the card was in Italy at ATMs. But you raise good questions of how this could be done. I don't know much about magnetic strips - do they only encode the card number - if so would be possible to duplicate i think.

eleni - once again my Romany reference was irrelevant - putting two and two together doesn't always make four - i know Romany didn't originate in Romania but i believe there are more there than other places and there are more than a few that traditionally in Italy have preyed off tourists - i could be wrong but i know their problems there have been highly publicized, though they are throughout Europe - the perhaps derogatory name Gypsy actually comes from Egyptian as they were once erroneously thought to have originated there. So once again i say i regret bringing that in at this time and place.

OK! Thanks for your comments, PalQ!

It's called "scamming" - a copying device installed on non-bank ATMs which copies the magnetic data on your card, ATM, debit and credit cards.

There were reports also from people who'd give a credit card to a restaurant waiter, and it would get scammed.

There's an article about card skimming at
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardian_j...360381,00.html

or http://tinyurl.com/7bfnz

Lots of ways that the card data can be obtained. As ncgrrl said, a false front can be placed over the real card slot, recording the card as you load it in. Another way is the non-bank ATM which read your card and more often than not, will say that something is wrong and not give you cash. Note: if happens, you may have just had your card info stolen. Notify your bank right away so they can be on the look-out for unusual activity.
Your data can also be copied using a "card cleaner" which may be present near or on a ATM machine.

Ways that your PIN can be recorded: local camera - check for any excess material in the ATM area, e.g., a box holding deposit slips/envelopes or "bank info" right by the key pad. There should be nothing in the area.
Good old-fashioned shoulder surfing, now high tech. Some cell phones now have video taping capabilities. So the person "talking" on the cell behind may actually be trying to record you.

This is becoming a real problem all over, it has happened to two people I know, and it was done at home - nothing to do with European travel. Banks are trying to keep it quiet, but it is happening more and more.

The PIN is collected either by a rigged ATM, which records the # as your punch it in, or a video camera. The information on the magnetic strip is recorded by a secondary reader, either in a rigged ATM, or afixed on the front of a bank ATM, so it reads as your card goes in.

People are often targetted over long weekends when banks are closed for 3 days so that the thief can withdraw your daily max for 3 days without anyone noticing.

Not having $ in the account doesn't help. They "deposit" empty envelopes into your account, and then promptly withdraw it. The day after the long weekend, when the bank checks the deposits, your account is overdrawn. So not only are they stealing $ you have, but $ you don't have!!

Hiding your pin is obviously a good idea, but not fool proof, if the machine is rigged to remember what you punch in. Your best bet is to change your PIN monthly. The people who run these set ups, ususally collect PINs and swipe info for a few months, then make a bunch of cards and use them all at over one weekend. If you have changed your pin since they collected it, they can't get your $.

Another way they can get your swipe info is through fake "door entry swipes" placed at the entrance to a bank ATM vestibule. These used to be common, but are rare now, where you have to swipe your card to gain access to an ATM vestibule at a closed bank.

One of the people I know was targetted this way. At the entry to the vestibule, there was a swipe thing - which she thought was to gain access to the vestibule, so she swiped her card. In fact it was not installed by the bank, but was a recorder collecting her info. The reader/recorder was installed with double sided tape by the scammer! The camera recording her pin was actually mounted in a tree outside of the bank window!! She did in fact get her $ back, but not after a lot of hassle.

Well, after reading all of these posts I can only say, "Ain't free market Capitalism wonderful?".

Re credit and debit card fraud:

With a US issued CC you can't be held liable for more than $50, even if you are at fault.

With a debit card, however, even if the bank gives you back your money prior to determining if you are at fault, you might end up losing the full amount.

I urge everyone going to a foreign country not to use their ATM cards as debit cards.

The number can be copied and charges can be made against it without a PIN.

Furthermore, why pay for the trip as you go, when you can pay for it after you get back?

((I))

The really frightening part is that many of us use ATM cards to get cash, which is want our friend did in Paris. I do not know if he ever used a "free standing" ATM or not. But I'd hate to go back to traveler's checks or exchanging cash at banks or change bureaus out of fear.

Yes what a nightmare - travelers cheques at banks with limited hours - and with the euro and ATMS many banks don't even change money anymore - may have to rely on the Beaueaux des Changes and low rates or use cheques as low rates. this has prompted me to use more precautions, however, as not having many funds in my ATM account to tap.
The word 'change' supposedly came from a street by Chartres cathedral in its medieval pilgrim heyday when money-changers gathered on this street - the Rue de Change - and the name came to mean changing money (this i heard on a Malcom Miller tour. so it's gotta be true) - without ATMs and available banks we could see a return on street changers?

I would like to re-stress a point I made earlier. Change your PIN. It takes the scammer time to make a new card. If you change your PIN before you go on vacation, and as soon as you get back, you are greatly reducing your risk. I usually do this anyway to switch to a 4 digit pin.

It's been going on in the UK as well: some Romanians were sent down for a good long time after using false front skimming equipment on ATMs. Basically, don't use an ATM that's got a bulbous bit sticking out in front of the card slot. Here's a link with some pictures of what to look out for:

http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/moneyweekly/skimming.html

It's been going on in the UK as well: some Romanians were sent down for a good long time after using false front skimming equipment on ATMs. Basically, don't use an ATM that's got a bulbous bit sticking out in front of the card slot. Here's a link with some pictures of what to look out for:

http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/moneyweekly/skimming.html

And here's some advice from one of our police forces:
http://www.sussex.police.uk/communit...y/fraud_18.asp

I wouldn't believe that Malcolm Miller story, or at least don't understand what point he was trying to make as the word "exchange" is a normal word (echange in French), you don't have to make up some story that the whole origin of the term came from a street near Chartres cathedral. What other word would you use to exchange one thing for another? The word change means exchange in French (noun), it's just shortened, but they don't use the English word "change" to mean change as we do in English (coins). Calling a Bureau de Change exactly what it is doesn't seem to need some special story, those words are literal.

Aside from fraud with cameras and secret recordings of card copies, it isn't usually a good idea to be using private nonbank ATMs, anyway, as they can charge you a fee and a bank ATM won't. If you were desperate and couldn't find a bank-affiliated one, I could see it.

You can get scammed at a bank ATM as well - like in my story with the door swiper. Be on guard everywhere.

Malcom Miller wrong? Now that's a change! (I'm not doubting your take).

I agree that the the greater danger seems to be in using non-bank atms,the sort found in stores and restaurants.
Here in the US a co-worker of mine habitually used the atm that is located in a nearby popular coffee shop, she used that is until fraudulent withdrawals started occuring from her bank account without her authorization.
The fraud was traced to the coffee shop's atm.

I don't think we can criticize people for having substantial balances in their checking accounts, especially if we keep advising people to use atms while on vacation. Not everyone has 'someone at home' to replenish the checking account. A better precaution might be to open up a separate account just for the trip (though there could still be a substantial balance in there), or to just hope for the best.
For every bad story about travel woes (pickpocketing, other thefts, bombs,atm problems, scams) there are 90 other people who have had nothing happen to them. I'm not diminishing the bad experience,just saying that most people get through the day or a trip without becoming crime victims, thankfully. We're all playing the odds, all we can do is take some precautions.