Are you following Scotland's upcoming vote on independence?
Sep 9th, 2014, 03:26 AM
#22
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One of the greatest hypocracies played out daily in the English Tory press is that they want to deny Scotland its right to self-determination from Westminster, but at the same time are vehemently insistent that England should be freed from the shackles of the EU in Brussels (as they perceive it).
Sep 9th, 2014, 03:27 AM
#23
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SATVIK123 - "I am also concerned about what the visa policies will be post independence of Scotland, would it still be an UK visa to enter Scotland or would one need a Scottish visa?" That is an interesting question.
IWAN2GO - "Did see that the pound went down today, though." A real sticking point. David Cameron visited the Queen. They are all concerned although the Queen has not voiced her opinion publicaly.
GORDON_R - "But any fluctuations due to the impending Scottish independence referendum will be peanuts compared to the de-stabilising effects when rUK has it's referendum to leave the EU." Wow, that will be a hot one!
MAISONPLAGUE - "Whatever happens Keep Calm and Carry On." Good advice in any circumstance .
Thanks all for your replies...
IWAN2GO - "Did see that the pound went down today, though." A real sticking point. David Cameron visited the Queen. They are all concerned although the Queen has not voiced her opinion publicaly.
GORDON_R - "But any fluctuations due to the impending Scottish independence referendum will be peanuts compared to the de-stabilising effects when rUK has it's referendum to leave the EU." Wow, that will be a hot one!
MAISONPLAGUE - "Whatever happens Keep Calm and Carry On." Good advice in any circumstance .
Thanks all for your replies...
Sep 9th, 2014, 04:28 AM
#24
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Whatever happens Keep Calm and Carry On.
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Maybe if WWII cliches were not invoked so often this vote would not be necessary.
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Many countries are geographical fictions and the residue of past wars and power struggles. How many countries have domestic prejudices based on geography, class, language, culture, past history, economic opportunities, religion, and skin color.It seems nothing is more basic to the human condition than clan wars and disagreements.
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In a matter such as this, there will always be scores of unintended consequences if it comes to pass. The best modern example of a peaceful national separation was under Vaclav Havel when Czechoslovakia became the Czech Republic and Slovakia.
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There are more dissimilarities than similarities when comparing Scotland to the United States and their relationship with England.
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Maybe if WWII cliches were not invoked so often this vote would not be necessary.
___________________________________
Many countries are geographical fictions and the residue of past wars and power struggles. How many countries have domestic prejudices based on geography, class, language, culture, past history, economic opportunities, religion, and skin color.It seems nothing is more basic to the human condition than clan wars and disagreements.
___________
In a matter such as this, there will always be scores of unintended consequences if it comes to pass. The best modern example of a peaceful national separation was under Vaclav Havel when Czechoslovakia became the Czech Republic and Slovakia.
___
There are more dissimilarities than similarities when comparing Scotland to the United States and their relationship with England.
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Sep 9th, 2014, 04:59 AM
#26
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BB - you are not alone, many people living in other parts of the current UK don't "get" it. But read this well-timed BBC article with an open mind, it goes a long way to explaining what's behind the support for the Yes campaign:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29011507
Sep 9th, 2014, 05:56 AM
#28
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>They probably said that about the American colonies in 1776.<
Just think, they would now have been an independent country like Canada but would actually include Canada. Biggest country in the world with all those resources.
You must admit that very few countries would allow a part to choose to be independent.
Remind me, didn't the Southern part of the US attempt it at one time?
Just think, they would now have been an independent country like Canada but would actually include Canada. Biggest country in the world with all those resources.
You must admit that very few countries would allow a part to choose to be independent.
Remind me, didn't the Southern part of the US attempt it at one time?
Sep 9th, 2014, 06:03 AM
#30
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When I read that some Brits have no idea why the Scots want independence, it is akin to the attitude towards racism in the US. Many whites ask what racism, while Blacks, Latinos, and Asians say, the racism that effects us.
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I think the comparisons to the US Revolutionary War and the Civil War have nothing to do with a present day situation, even though England was ironically on the wrong side for both.
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I think the comparisons to the US Revolutionary War and the Civil War have nothing to do with a present day situation, even though England was ironically on the wrong side for both.
Sep 9th, 2014, 07:31 AM
#32
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"One of the greatest hypocracies played out daily in the English Tory press is that they want to deny Scotland its right to self-determination from Westminster" No paper, not even the most pro-tory, has said that the vote should not take place. Nobody is denying them the Scots' right to self determination. That's why there's a referendum. But government is trying to persuade the Scots to stay in the UK.
Sep 9th, 2014, 07:49 AM
#33
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"One of the greatest hypocracies played out daily in the English Tory press is that they want to deny Scotland its right to self-determination from Westminster"
No "English Tory press" (or any British pro-Labour medium) wants to deny - or more relevantly, has published a single syllable suggesting anyone should deny - Scotland's desire to secede if its electorate say so.
If you really don't understand the difference between arguing against a position and trying to withhold a democratic right, let's all pray Scotland votes "yes" and Britain's got one less political illiterate to deal with.
If you can cite a single example in the 300 years we've been stuck with the Scotch of a single occasion anyone in England has argued that Scotland should be prevented from pissing off and destroying itself all over again, tell us.
No "English Tory press" (or any British pro-Labour medium) wants to deny - or more relevantly, has published a single syllable suggesting anyone should deny - Scotland's desire to secede if its electorate say so.
If you really don't understand the difference between arguing against a position and trying to withhold a democratic right, let's all pray Scotland votes "yes" and Britain's got one less political illiterate to deal with.
If you can cite a single example in the 300 years we've been stuck with the Scotch of a single occasion anyone in England has argued that Scotland should be prevented from pissing off and destroying itself all over again, tell us.
Sep 9th, 2014, 08:04 AM
#34
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" "I am also concerned about what the visa policies will be post independence of Scotland, would it still be an UK visa to enter Scotland or would one need a Scottish visa?""
The answer's not 100% clear.
The independence lobby says it wants the same status Ireland has (a common travel area with the UK), but also says it wants more immigrants than it's currently getting - though there's no evidence most Scots agree with that last bit. If the SNP wants the last bit to be law, such rules - which imply an independent visa regime - presumably must be ratified by the Scottish Parliament. And it's not necessarily going to follow the Independence lobby's manifesto.
If Scotland does end up with a significantly different visa regime from Britain (for example, if it makes visas easier for Chinese or Indians), Britain would have to create passport controls between Scotland and Britain - and the Irish Republic and the minor Crown dependencies like Jersey would have to follow suit (otherwise, Scotland would create an open backdoor for uncontrolled immigration).
In practice, Ireland hasn't created visa rules that differ meaningfully (as far as Britain and Ireland are concerned) from Britain and there are strong Irish political pressures for keeping the intra-Ireland border uncontrolled, so Ireland is unlikely to irritate Britain over this..
Political pressures in Scotland will be different. Most Scots will be outraged if its parliament passes laws that end up with the country surrounded by borders. But that might not matter to a triumphalist "we're the masters noo" Scottish parliament.
The answer's not 100% clear.
The independence lobby says it wants the same status Ireland has (a common travel area with the UK), but also says it wants more immigrants than it's currently getting - though there's no evidence most Scots agree with that last bit. If the SNP wants the last bit to be law, such rules - which imply an independent visa regime - presumably must be ratified by the Scottish Parliament. And it's not necessarily going to follow the Independence lobby's manifesto.
If Scotland does end up with a significantly different visa regime from Britain (for example, if it makes visas easier for Chinese or Indians), Britain would have to create passport controls between Scotland and Britain - and the Irish Republic and the minor Crown dependencies like Jersey would have to follow suit (otherwise, Scotland would create an open backdoor for uncontrolled immigration).
In practice, Ireland hasn't created visa rules that differ meaningfully (as far as Britain and Ireland are concerned) from Britain and there are strong Irish political pressures for keeping the intra-Ireland border uncontrolled, so Ireland is unlikely to irritate Britain over this..
Political pressures in Scotland will be different. Most Scots will be outraged if its parliament passes laws that end up with the country surrounded by borders. But that might not matter to a triumphalist "we're the masters noo" Scottish parliament.
Sep 9th, 2014, 10:33 AM
#35
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Any new country joining the EU, if an independent Scotland succeeded, has to accept Schengen. Will the hordes of wannabe immigrants divert from Calais to arrive on Easyjet into Glasgow?Salmond will have all the extra immigration he wants. I just hope he's budgeting for the welfare, housing, schools and healthcare they'll need.
Sep 9th, 2014, 11:20 AM
#36
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One of the greatest hypocracies played out daily in the English Tory press is that they want to deny Scotland its right to self-determination from Westminster
The last three Prime Ministers -
David Cameron - Name rather gives it away (father Scottish)
Gordon Brown - born Scotland
Tony Blair - born Scotland
The last three Prime Ministers -
David Cameron - Name rather gives it away (father Scottish)
Gordon Brown - born Scotland
Tony Blair - born Scotland
Sep 9th, 2014, 11:34 AM
#37
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Anicecupoftea
And that is the point.
Still with days to go we haven't had a definite answer as to where a YES vote will leave us. Combined with the fact that 16 year olds are voting, this isn't leading up to the most informed electorate in democratic history.
The EU requires new entrants to accept the Euro and enter Schengen. Which would leave us with chocolate money BA led by millions of worthless villas on the Costa Del Sol and border controls on the M74 after Carlisle. I suspect Cameron, Noddy and Wallace or simply coming up tomorrow to ensure their nuclear subs all have property of England stickers on them.
And that is the point.
Still with days to go we haven't had a definite answer as to where a YES vote will leave us. Combined with the fact that 16 year olds are voting, this isn't leading up to the most informed electorate in democratic history.
The EU requires new entrants to accept the Euro and enter Schengen. Which would leave us with chocolate money BA led by millions of worthless villas on the Costa Del Sol and border controls on the M74 after Carlisle. I suspect Cameron, Noddy and Wallace or simply coming up tomorrow to ensure their nuclear subs all have property of England stickers on them.
Sep 9th, 2014, 01:10 PM
#40
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"not the most informed"
Means : non of us know what we are voting for.
Means : 16 years old are not mature enough to take decision of this magnitude
Goodness knows how people posting here manage to try to twist what one posts. Or why.
Means : non of us know what we are voting for.
Means : 16 years old are not mature enough to take decision of this magnitude
Goodness knows how people posting here manage to try to twist what one posts. Or why.
