Hi dutyfree. When I first visited the British Museum (long before I ever travelled to Greece), I was happy that Elgin's marbles were there so I had the chance to see them. I too thought they were probably better there in an enviroment which was, secure, humidity controlled etc. etc. then left somewhere else without the same facilities for preserving them. Since then, I've visited Athens and seen that their museums are first class. It changed my mind somewhat - I now agree with you - I think they belong back in Greece.

Janis wrote "So far you have called me dumb, insensitive, and snide -- all because of one word???
.
Amazing . . . ."

He has probably read your other responses and came to that conclusion

>>He offered it to them for free in exchange for Manhattan which he claimed that they stole from him<<
And we haven't heard from the Dutch yet....

Do read this book; The Island at the Center of the World: The Epic Story of Dutch Manhattan and the Forgotten Colony That Shaped America by Russell Shorto.


And what about the art that was looted by Napoleon throughout Europe, some of which is still in the Louvre?

The problem with this is where do you stop?

Things have ended up where they are for all sorts of reasons of history and politics and trying to retrospectively unravel these is simply impossible.

So no I don't think the British Museum should give "some stuff back".

Having said that various British museums have recently returned some human remains to the aborigines, so they could be buried in accordance with tribal custom. However bones are different from rocks.

nope, given the terrible things that continue to happen around the world I am ashamed that any time is taken up by expensive politicians on this matter at all

Well if your gonna do that, then I'm in favor of making the Spaniards give back the gold they stole from the Incas, the astronauts returning the moon rocks they stole from the moon and governments returning all taxes they took from us poor tax payers.

Yeah! That'll happen.

>Anyone else think that the British Museum needs to give back some "stuff"?<

I don't, unless the Greek gov't can show that the "stuff" was obtained illegally.

((I))

I would be far more worried about the ethics of hanging on to the Benin bronzes (which really was a case of colonial looting, and much closer to modern times) than the Elgin Marbles.

The Vatican Museum is what really sticks in my craw. They could save the continent of Africa with what they've got stashed in those rooms. But they'd rather be shunting pedophile priests from one parish to another.

These matters are more complicated than they appear.

Many of the artifacts which are now in European museums would have been destroyed if the Europeans had not taken them.

Take Egypt. In the 19th century, mummies were systematically burnt as fuel by the natives. The European archeologists saved them by bringing them to Europe.

And in 1971, the Egyptian government would have deliberately destroyed two dozen antique temples with the Nasr-reservoir if Europeans and Americans had not saved the artifacts (with their technology AND with their money).

If Europe's museums gave back artifacts, European governments in turn could demand their money back. Is it that what Egypt really wants?

Nefertiti's bust was exported with permission. Now they say, on the basis of fraudolent papers. "Fraudolent" by today's standards or by yesteryear's standards?

I am in doubt if you can solve such questions today, especially with lacking historical records and long-dead witnesses. This is the reason for the limitation of claim in most legal systems.

History is historic. Let the things be as they are.

(BTW, I myself come from an refugee family. Shall we claim back what was confiscated from our family in 1945?)

I assume people realize there actually is a possibly positive side for the so-called 'thefts' and that is the items may very well have been lost forever or given over to private hands if they had not been "preserved" in places such as the museums in London and Berlin.

Of course, we will always have the folks who like to characterize everything which seeks to rectify so-called "injustices" by calling them "kumbaya moments"...that is, until <B>they</B> feel that something wrong has happened to <B>them</B> and then it is "get out the guns and atomic bombs" time....

I think it is a shame that Elgin removed the marbles but by doing so he preserved them. In an ideal world all precious antiquities would be preserved in situ but wars, looting, crusades, etc prevent that.

If we could pick and choose then I'd start by returning the all the marble the Vatican looted from the Colosseum

One further important point; The British Museum is free while the Acropolis museum in Athens charges 5 euros.
I think the cost of looking after these treasures should be paid by the government that holds them (note:'holds' them rather than 'owns' them).

>Shall we claim back what was confiscated from our family in 1945?)<

Plus interest and punitive damages.

((I))

Echnaton and nuksafe have it right. At the time the Elgin Marbles and all other art & sundry were bought, the British were probably in the best position to 1) appreciate them and 2) care for them. If it weren't for the British, would any of this stuff have survived; or been studied, understood and available to the rest of us? Was there any other nation who collectively loved and valued history and culture to the extent of the British? Others have caught up since then, but they really led the way. IMO these items were not stolen. They were rescued - legally as well as morally. They weren't hidden, but openly displayed FREE for the world to enjoy.

The focus of the debate then becomes not whether it was okay to move the items at the time, but whether they should be given back now. If I were the Brits, I'd be miffed and feel like an adopted parent who raised, fed, clothed & loved a child and then was asked to give it back to the people who had neglected it to begin with.

Apparently Dukey and Sassy_cat were typing at the same time I was.

I'm only half joking here but, if you have been following he news, if the Brits did give back the stuff they are keeping for the Greeks, the Government in Athens would probably have to sell the antiquities to the Saudis to keep Greece from going into bankruptcy.

:-(