Anyone been to Italy, Spain and Portugal?
 

Hi everyone. My husband and I are taking a return trip to Europe (went to italy for our honeymoon last summer) and would love some advice. We would like to rent an apartment for a home base and do a couple little side trips. We are primarily interested in great local food, wine and culture. Scenery such as hills, beaches are also nice. We absolutely loved italy and spent most of our time in the south so we were thinking of Umbria for the delicious truffles and wine, (or maybe Siena) and a side trip to cinque terre. I'm also interested in Seville for the tapas and the flamenco dancing&music and interesting architecture. My husband suggested San Sebastián for the food and scenery but I'm afraid it may be too cool then as we are going in May. Also, is that area very pricey? We are also interested in Portugal. I've read many of the Spain vs Portugal threads and people seem very divided between Spain and Portugal, so it's hard to get a feel for which would fit our desires. Maybe a week in Lisbon and a week in Seville? We keep vacillating between going back to italy where we KNOW we will love it, and trying a new country like spain&portual....but that could be a risk and we may wish we had just gone to Italy. We won't be able to travel like this again for several years so we want this trip to be amazing. Not sure if we will get a car or not.

Any advice from folks who have visited all three countries would be greatly appreciated!!!

Details:
May, 2 weeks
Want: warm weather, great food, not too touristy vibe, relaxing, interesting culture and walkable areas
Would prefer to not have to get a car, unless it would make the trip better
Speak Spanish, some italian, zero Portuguese

My husband and I went to Italy for our honeymoon as well and absolutely loved it! Regarding your upcoming trip, I'm not sure if France is in the running, but Dijon would fulfill all the criteria you named (aside from not being in Spain, Portugal, or Italy!). The scenery is beautiful, the wine is obviously among the best in the world, and there were not many tourists at all. Plus there are so many cute villages throughout Burgundy that you can take day trips to. We stayed in the most charming apartment right in the heart of downtown and walked everywhere. Here's the link in case you want to take a look:

http://www.myhomeindijon.com/

Yes, I have been to both a couple to many times.

IMHO I am not overwhelmed by Portugal (2 visits, 1 vacation, 1 business). It is quite inexpensive but does not the same level of cultural richness (or food nearly as good) as you will find in Italy. I would put in way down in my list of european countries to visit. I would definitely do Spain first as well as Italy, France and several other countries.

Spain has some wonderful areas to visits. We love Andalusia and May is a good time to go - since you will avoid the hellish heat (average highs of 100 and can be up to 120) of summer and can visit a number of cities and towns built on the fascinating moorish culture unique in europe (also roman remains, reconquista, etc). San Sebastian is lovely but won;t be really warm.

I would either do Andalusia (can easily take 2 weeks if you include Madrid and environs) or other parts of Italy. However, we prefer cities and IMHO visiting Italy without at least 5 days or so in Rome is close to a crime. And In May the weather will be goo, days long and tourists hordes not yet at their worst. We have even gotten some good hotel deals in May (esp on the AC).

May = next month or in 13 months?

May 2015

Of course--been to Spain 5 times, Portugal 3 times , and Italy 17 times. For a May trip, I really like Sicily---which is perfect for 2 weeks, or a combination of Andalusia and the Madrid area, to include Segovia and Toledo.

A car may be helpful for parts of both of these itineraries.

Here is Sicily in May:
http://www.slowphotos.com/photo/show...y.php?cat=3828

Hi,

I'm an American who lives happily in Italy and goes touring all over it, but I love visiting Portugal and Spain, for food, wine, scenery, history and art-- in fact, I could happily live in either country. I've been to San Sebastian in May and had absolutely glorious weather (but not swimming weather, and you are taking a risk of rain). Andalucia is not my favorte part of Spain for food or wine, but it has fantastic tourist sights and you have a special interest in going there. Portugal is especially a thrill for cheap apartments and wonderful inexpensive food and wine.

I really feel for your dilemma. Every year I have to make choices about whether I am going to spend more time and money touring the beautiful parts of Italy I haven't seen, or if I am going to visit a new part of Europe outside of Italy. Finally, you can only go on the basis of mood. Fortunately, May isn't too far away, so you can feel what your mood is now. A second honeymoon in Italy? Or an adventure into the unknown?

Obviously I think Italy is wonderful, but just a heads up: You say you don't want to rent a car, but you are very limited as to what you can enjoy in Umbria without one. (Also, you're not going to get truffles in May in Umbria -- not real freash ones-- and at no time of year do they have white truffles.) You say that you don't want "too touristy", but le Cinque Terre in May is wall-to-wall tourists. Definitely ignore pressures to guilt you out about not spending a week in Rome. There is a persistent guilt-tripping on message boards from Catholics about this, but literally millions of people visit Italy and have a great time without going to Rome (and many who do have negative reactions -- including those raised Catholics!) It's your trip and brush off the people trying to keep track of whether you are doing it "right". Do what you like in whatever places are calling to you most strongly.

No need for a car for the places you wish to go - have been to them all multiple times by rail - Spain has a really modern fast rail system and buses pick up the slack - can get virtually anywhere by rail and or bus. For lots on Spanish trains: www.renfe.com - the official site of Spain's state railways; www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.ricksteves.com and www.seat61.com. If you book far in advance you can get sweet discounted tickets but then those may be non-changeable non-refundable so be sure of your times and dates. For full flexibility to select trains as you go along check out the Spain Eurailpass though you'd have to be going all over the country, very possible, to make it worthwhile.

I disagree about the advisability of using trains only for Umbria, and I would prefer to have one in the Basque Country if I was staying longer than just a few days. In that part of Spain, trains are not really an option, and I don't care for buses. Also, if you want to see the great scenery of the Basque coast, and visit the Rioja wine area or make forays into France, then a car is really needed.

Some of Umbria is serviced by trains, but the main draws of the small picturesque hilltowns, plus the wine country around Montefalco, is not easily accessed by public transportation.

For other places being mentioned -- like Lisbon and Sevilla -- that is easily done without a car. Likewise the Italian Riviera. There are definitely trips in Italy and Spain and Portugal that don't require a car -- and where one actually should not rent a car -- but then you need to pick the right spots.

I have this dilemma every year--not a bad problem to have, and rest assured you will have a fabulous trip no matter which you pick. However, does airfare not come into the equation?
That is how I often choose a destination, as there are plenty of great places to go, but I cannot always gets a good and convenient fare to them at my given time--and yours is coming soon!

* Early May or late May? I visited Basque country in late May and it was mostly glorious weather-wise, though we did have a little rain. People were even swimming, but that could have been a fluke. We did a lot of hiking, and the weather was just stellar for that.
We did not rent a car and were able to travel all along the dramatic Basque coastline using the train and bus--from San Sebastian and just east all the way to Mundaka. A car would have been better for inland travel, but the seaside towns that we were interested in were all well-linked. Spain is much more affordable than Italy in my experience of visiting each 3 times--though of course you can spend as much or as little in either depending on your accommodation and food tastes. We chose to eat in pintxo bars in lieu of the fancy restaurants in San Sebastian. Because you repeatedly mentioned food, I think you would really like the Basque country.
Andalucia has the amazing cultural monuments that I am so glad to have seen, but Basque country captured me in a different way.

I could never dissuade someone from returning to Italy--each region has different appeal, but I often do suggest considering options to Cinque Terre, where i feel the tourism pressures negatively affect the experience.
good luck!

IMHO visiting Rome has nothing to do with being catholic for many (most?) people It is based on the fact that Rome was the enter of a massive empire covering much of europe, north africa and the middle east for the best part of a millennium. Also just seeing how modern a city it was 2000 and more years ago is fascinating.

And this is not guilt. This is just my opinion of what matters overall in visiting europe. Caveat: POV of a historian.

Thanks everyone for the helpful replies! To answer your questions it would be mid through the end of May. We have enough miles to go for free (!!) so airfare isn't an issue. We did a ton of sightseeing in italy because we did spend almost a week in rome and paestum and another couple of days in florence. My main thing is having great food and nice weather. It seems like San Sebastián is drawing me most, but the risk of getting rain or chilly weather makes me hesitant. Seville and southern Spain would of course have better weather but some posters mentioned the food there isn't as great..

And then there is southern France as well. I think we have decided against italy this time. I guess we just need to decide soon, and it's true what many of you said: no matter what it'll be a great trip!

Yes, it'll be a great trip, and the food will be good wherever you go ! Not a concern. Now get those FF tickets before none are left. That is a concern !

Lucky you (on the airfare)!
Take a quick peek at something by Penelope Casas for an overview of Andalucian cuisine, which may be appealing to you. I enjoyed eating there as much as in the Basque country, but I am a vegetarian/pescetarian and have peculiar preferences. Food is just so personal.
Also, May is a near perfect time to visit Andalucia--wildflowers and sun. All of the main places are easy to travel between using train and bus, but some small towns are also reachable. If you want to just hang out in a small town for a few days and and not necessarily do multiple day trips, no car needed.

Thanks again to all posters! I think at least we now have it narrowed to Spain, Portugal or both. Sounds like Andalusian cuisine is good, but can anyone talk about whether the whole tapas thing is popular down there? I recall going to Barcelona about 10 years ago and the tapas were amazing, and I keep reading about the pintxos in Catalonia so food-wise I'm being drawn to the north. However, I really do not like cold weather and rain and in May it could potentially be that, right? Can anyone elaborate on Portugal? Would it be crazy to do northern Spain, la Rioja and part of Portugal? Or...southern Spain, the algarve and Lisbon?

It seems the algarve is beautiful but I read it is loaded with tourists, which is the opposite of what I want. Are there beautiful towns/regions in either country that people have visited that have great food, wine, culture and not too touristy?

Thanks in advance

They call it Green Spain for a reason. We did northern Spain in May one year and it rained for 8 days in a row.

Yes, tapas are popular all over Spain. Touristy ? Every place is touristy if there's something to see. I read an article in today's Telegraph that the citizens of Barcelona are sick of tourists, are protesting them, and that the Boqueria market will be prohibiting tour groups. And, you are a tourist, as am I and everyone posting on these boards. We do understand what you mean, but get over it.

Thank you to all the posters who gave me useful information. It is much appreciated!

Some of Umbria is serviced by trains, but the main draws of the small picturesque hilltowns, plus the wine country around Montefalco, is not easily accessed by public transportation.>

I have taken trains and buses to many Umbrian hill towns - Todi, Assisi, Perugia - a big hill town - Gubbio and Urbino (these two not hill towns but very sweet old towns - now you cannot reach every hill with a few huts on it but buses pick up the slack and do virtually go everywhere - cars are nice if you want one but definitely you can reah nearly all of the famous hill towns by dirt-chep public transportation.

You can visit both Lisban and Porto without a car, plus included scenic excursions. You can easily find ways to be outside the most touristy areas of these locations. It is much harder to visit the Rioja area without a car, and some of the most scenic parts of the Basque coast are only doable with a car. I think it is possible to combine areas -- like parts of Portugal with parts of Spain, or combining 2 different areas of Spain -- but I would look to take a plane flight between them.

Tapas is absolutely a prominent feature of the cuisine in Sevilla. (In the Basque country, there are pintxos. Barcelona is in Catalonia.) I'm also mainly a fish and vegetable eater (which is why I live on the Italian Riviera), but I prefer the food of the Basque coast (which has plenty of fish and vegetables) rather than Andalusia or Catalonia. My one experience of Sevilla was in late April, when it was uncomfortably hot for sightseeing. I was in the Basque country in May, and had dry sunny weather the entire time. You can't really rely much on these personal reports.

It's not true in my experience that "every place is touristy if there is something to see." In some places in Europe, the local culture is commercialized for tourist consumption or to pack in as many people as possible who want bargain prices. I have also heard that the Algarve is spoiled in that regard (which is why I have never gone). With a bit of research, you can be in highly atmospheric places in the heart of Sevilla or Lisbon or the Basque country (much of which is totally unspoiled and pristine) and feel the difference between a place that is not touristy but still is a rewarding place to travel to, and a place that has become touristy. Please don't others talk you out of what is a very legitimate travel value -- not being in a touristy place.

I am really surprised that anyone would say the food in Andalucia is not good??? As for tapas, I thought the tapas in Andalucia were as good, if not better than Barcelona with more unique tapas being offered. I found this website very helpful for tapas bars in Seville. There is a listing of bars by barrio with ratings and pictures.

http://azahar-sevilla.com/sevilletapas/

Personally, I think some combination, not necessarily all, of the following destinations would make a great trip - Madrid ( day trips to Segovia and Toledo), Seville, Cordoba ( we enjoyed a couple of days in this small city), Granada and Malaga. All easily done by public transportation.

We also considered splitting an upcoming trip between Madrid and Porto/Duoro Valley area of Portugal - with great Port and I was looking forward to trying the wines of the region. Flights between Madrid and Porto were very reasonable. We made another choice, but I think this would have been a nice trip as well.

We would also love to visit San Sebastián but we often travel in the October timeframe and the weather also worries me.

Since you mentioned you honeymooned last year, I'm making an assumption that you will have time to make many great trips yet, but that assumption may be incorrect. I think whatever you choose you will enjoy!

You can visit a lot of Portugal by train and/or bus, not just Lisbon and Porto. For a first visit I would base in Lisbon for up to a week, and then take the train to north, certainly to Coimbra on the way to Porto. Connecting Spain and Portugal is not as easy as you might think, due to centuries of enmity. There is a night train between Madrid and Lisbon, and inconvenient rail links from Santiago to Porto, but in the south you'll need to take buses.

debinthepeg,

I'm not the only one who says that, but for what it's worth, I also like the tapas in Andalucia better than Barcelona. But for me, Basque cuisine is tops (and after that, I like Galicia, then Madrid, so Andalucia comes in after that).

I have easily flown in and out of Lisbon and Porto airports to other parts of Spain. The airports are close to the cities, cheap to get to, and the flights are short. Likewise many regional Spanish airports, like Sevilla or Bilbao. If you want to go to both Spain and Portugal, it can be comfortably done.

(nytraveler and palenq, moot points since they aren't returning to Italy. And to nytraveler: Never said Rome hasn't got historic importance. Am warning again those issuing condemnations of for committing a "crime" not visiting Rome for at least a week, which you repeatedly post, along with the info you are Catholic. Far from being a historian. Anyway, you're not the only one doing it, so fair warning to readers looking for advice about where to travel for fun.)

Lauren1979,

If you decide to go to Sevilla, this might come in handy

http://www.exploreseville.com/tapas-bars.htm

Good food and wine can be found all over Spain...not everyone enjoyed the same type of food anyway
( some people are vegetarians, some don't eat pork or shellfish. Etc)
Finding beautiful towns with interesting culture and without many tourists is a challenge.
...around Madrid, Chichon or Aranjuez are less touristy but don'tb not have the splendid
history and monuments like Toledo. In the north, Santander is not well known as San Sebastian,
but also it is not nearly as lovely as SS.
Valencia is a beautiful city with fantastic beaches ...not as touristy as Barcelona or Lisbon.

Also, only you can decide if you can be a happy camper in the rain or would prefer to reduce the risks of bad weather as much as possible

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic...e_Country.html

<<It's not true in my experience that "every place is touristy if there is something to see." In some places in Europe, the local culture is commercialized for tourist consumption or to pack in as many people as possible who want bargain prices. I have also heard that the Algarve is spoiled in that regard (which is why I have never gone). With a bit of research, you can be in highly atmospheric places in the heart of Sevilla or Lisbon or the Basque country (much of which is totally unspoiled and pristine) and feel the difference between a place that is not touristy but still is a rewarding place to travel to, and a place that has become touristy. >>

Yes, Sandralist, that's exactly what I was talking about. Thank you understanding and for highlighting the distinction.

Also, thank you for the very useful information and links. Thanks also to the other posters who took the time to share their experiences and information and shared links. I really appreciate it!

<<It's not true in my experience that "every place is touristy if there is something to see.">

Well let's see - I agree that some areas of some cities are very very touristy - the Vatican area in Rome and the Duomo area in Florence but those are tiny dots when looking at the whole city.

In Florence one day I walked right around the whole city center - in a big circle - following the large boulevards and saw nary a foreign tourist anywhere - just locals and it gave me a whole different insight in Florentine live - like several times I saw young folk sitting in parks smoking pot - right out in the open - that opened my eyes a bit - and ordinary restaurants and snack bars - so yes all cities are mainly real.

True, parts of many touristy cities are not very touristy:
Salamanca and Chamberi in Madrid, Parioli in Rome, Les Corts in Barcelona,
Macarena in Seville, some areas of Paris and London, Vinohrady in Prague etc..
Most of us visit famous cities to see weLl known museums, churches, parks..,
Exploring further afield usually requires more time or repeated visits.

<interested in Seville for the tapas and the flamenco dancing&music>

1.
Rosario Toledo performs in the Cajasol theater in Sevilla on May 14th as part of the prestigious Jueves Flamencos (Flamenco Thursdays) program. Here in the Oslo Opera house: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TnE_UQ2qGY

Online tickets, 15€ + expenses: http://www.ticktackticket.com/cajasolticket/Turina.html

2.
Spain's most cutting edge flamenco festival goes on in Mercat de les Flors in Barcelona May 21-24. Belen Maya (dance) and Dorantes (piano) are two of the finest flamenco artists on the current scene: http://mercatflors.cat/en/ciclesifes...amenco-2015-3/
Dorantes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOjtXiPl8Rk
Belen Maya: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njoiyUez3U8

And fantastic tapas in Barcelona, I mention from the top of my list Tickets, Cal Pep, Tapeo and Cañete.
http://www.barcelonabook.com/tickets...estaurant.html
http://www.calpep.com/Ingles/index_ing.html
http://www.tapeoborn.cat/
http://www.barcanete.com/

And had one of the best meals in my life in Xemei, 300 meters from Mercat de les Flors, after a flamenco performance here a month ago. The Bigoli en salsa Veneciana (1min 35 sec) is unlike anything I've ever tasted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lvcjtoh0tU

3.
Last, but not least: on May 28 out of this world Rocio Molina dances in Teatro Pricipal in Vitoria-Gazteiz. Together with great cantaora (flamenco singer) Rosario la Tremendita in "Afectos": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97w_mvV7C9U

"one of the finest soloists in the world today", New York Times

"Molina has genius: irresistible, all-consuming, all-powerful", Financial Times

"as if she were sharing the stage with the ghosts of all the dancers whose art she has absorbed – and reinvented", The Telegraph

Vitoria-Gasteiz is the capital of the Spanish Basque Country and close to San Sebastian.
Vitoria-Gasteiz: http://www.euskoguide.com/places-bas...toria-tourism/
San Sebastian-Donostia: http://www.euskoguide.com/places-bas...stian-tourism/

Fabulous video intro to the food/pintxos culture in San Sebastian, my favourite place on the planet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwmBAvqa_0U

Wow, thanks Kimhe for all the great info!

Ok, so my husband really wants to go to San Sebastián after reading about it so here is what we are thinking: fly into paris and spend a couple nights, take a train to southern France and then rent a car. Get an apartment from airbnb in Bordeaux, Toulouse or...? (Insert adorable french village with great cafes and bakeries) wander around that region for about 5-6 days and then drive to San Sebastián and stay in that area for almost a week then fly out.

I lived in Paris for one year and only visited la Bretagne, la Bourgogne, Marseilles, sete and Arles (my absolute favorite!) (and visited Barcelona), so I have no idea about these other regions. So, if anyone can help with an itinerary in terms of what I can realistically fit in without rushing and where best to fly out of, that would be great! One week in south of France, one week in north Spain. Should we include Barcelona or is it too far? (I have been, husband hasnt) Also, is the Rioja region doable or is that too much? Any advice on quaint, walkable towns in southern France and northern Spain is appreciated!
We did a ton of sight-seeing on our last europe trip and want this one to be primarily relaxing and enjoying great food and wine. I mention in my OP about my obsession with tapas and seems like SS would fit the bill. People said it can get rainy there so that's why we are thinking may 14-21 in south france and subsequent week in Spain.
Is a car going to be useful or would it be best to take trains? (Other threads mention SS having limited parking)
I will post this in a different forum as well, since I've included france in here. Thanks a million, everyone!!

I based in Bayonne, with day trips (by train) to Pau, St. Jean Pied du Port and St. Jean de Luz. You could add Biarritz.

Rioja is very doable with base in San Sebastian, especially the Rioja Alavesa: http://www.rutadelvinoderiojaalavesa...ja-alavesa.php
http://www.wine-pages.com/features/rioja-alavesa.htm

<quaint, walkable towns> Plenty, here are a couple of suggestions:
Tolosa, just inland from San Sebastian: http://www.euskoguide.com/places-bas...olosa-tourism/
Lekeitio, closer to Bilbao: http://www.lekeitio.org/en

Plenty of parking in San Sebastian, but the many subterr. garages are expensive. No need for a car in the city itself, very walkable, and great public transportation in the area.

Weather statistics for "your week" in San Sebastian says average highs 68F, seven hours sun pr day, and rainfall (usually heavy showers) in 3 out of 8 days. (wetteronline.de)