Another (sorry) Italy train question
 

I'm booking train tickets from Florence S.M.N. to Venice S. Lucia and, Venice S. Lucia to Milan CLE. I have looked at both Trenitalia and Rail Europe and Rail Europe is quite a bit cheaper, even including the $7.95 shipping (for an e-ticket!) Also, on the Florence to Venice portion, there are trains that Trenitalia does not offer., specifically, in addition to Trenitalia, there is an Italo, which is cheaper and offers free wifi. Difference between the two? Is there any reason to book with Trenitalia over Rail Europe?

Italo trains would not be offered on the trenitalia website because they are competitors. Have you checked italotreno.it pricing with rail europe for that segment? I always buy from the source if possible; it is usually cheaper and may give you more options to change things.

I believe the trenitalia fast trains also offer free WIFI.

Also, make sure that you are comparing apples to apples on the other segment to Milan. Are you looking at the same trains, or is one a slower train than the other?

Actually, the Italo train is faster than the Trenitalia. The Trenitalia website is the most expensive. I would book with Italo for the Venice-Milan but they don't have trains into Milan Centrale so I'll stick with the Trenitalia train for that one. I'll go through Rail Europe though for both since they are cheaper.

Without your dates and times of travel it is hard to respond. It is rare for Rail Europe to be cheaper or to offer all of the discounts that may be available from trenitalia. I am not sure you doing a true apple to apple comparison.

I assure you, I did a true apples to apples comparison. Rail Europe was cheaper on one train and about the same on the other. I checked the times for the trains. The Florence to Venice is Italo, which, of course, Trenitalia does not offer and it was considerably cheaper than what Trenitalia did offer, and the Italo train is faster. I basically wanted to know if Italo was a safe bet. I did some research and it seems it is.

Italo does seem to have lower prices generally, but fewer trains, esp in the middle of the day. The faster part-- I think it's just minutes faster than trenitalia according to the schedules for routes I checked.

trenitalia, from the few trains I checked, seems to have fewer discounted tickets than Italo so close to the travel date (which is where you appear to be) what you are finding out also makes sense, that Italo is much cheaper for your trains.

Rail Europe is one of those websites (like bahn.com) that won't check more than 90 days out for tickets, so tickets will have been on sale at trenitalia and italotreno long before they show up on raileurope. Therefore I suspect most of the discounted tickets on trenitalia are sold before raileurope offers those days for sale.

I'm leaving for Italy on May 5. I probably should have reserved trains two months ago, when I first booked my plane tickets and put the itinerary together. I also need train tickets from Milan to Florence but since we are taking the train from the airport in Milan to Central and then Florence the day we fly in, I don't want to buy those in advance since the flight can be delayed. We'll have to pay full price for those. I wonder if it is worth it to rent a car at the airport and drive to Florence and dump the car once there.

The roads from Milan are Florence are not fun to drive, especially if it is raining.

Sorry -- roads from Milan TO Florence is what I meant to type.

Sorry too that I can't help you with your other questions because I am a Freccia club member so i seldom look elsewhere at prices (especially since Italo doesn't run on most of the lines I use)

I just checked for the random date of May 10th.

Trenitalia site: 16 fast trains, journey time 2 hrs 05 min for each
Economy tickets for 29 EUR available for 10 trains
Super economy tickets fro 19 EUR available for 5 trains.

Italo site: 5 fast trains, journey time 2 hrs 05 min for each
Migliorprezzo ticket for 15 EUR available for 1 (afternoon) train
ticket for 25 EUR available for the 2 morning trains
ticket for 28 EUR available for the 2 evening trains

The train pricing is an unexpected wrinkle in traveling to Europe. It can less than half the price if you buy early.

It would be great if someone set up a Europe rail price WIKI to itemize all the train systems stating when tickets go on sale and how many tickets are discounted per train, etcetera.

It sounds like you are still doing ok with pricing anyway despite the late start. Do check italotreno.it before buying from raileurope.

I didn't get all of those trains and prices when I was on the trenitalia site. I wonder if the inventory changes from hour to hour, like with airfares. Also, on trenitalia, the cheaper tickets were leaving from and/or going to train stations that I did not want to go to/from. I am looking at convenience as well. In any case, I did book with Rail Europe. It cost about $110.00 for four tickets: two tickets from Florence to Venice and two tickets from Venice to Milan. That includes the ridiculous shipping fee. I don't think I did too badly.

Also, the Rail Europe prices were in US dollars, so I don't have to wonder what the exchange rate would be and I know exactly what I paid. And, I booked all morning trains, which seem to be a bit more money.

I just checked a random date in May (the 12th) and I don't see anything cheaper on the Raileurope site, although the price difference is not very great. The trains that have a €19 super-economy fare available on the Trenitalia site cost $23 on the Raileurope site. The trains that have a €29 economy fare on Trenitalia cost €35 on Raileurope. This is an exchange rate of 1.21. The rate today is 1.09.

I didn't see any case where Raileurope was cheaper. You may have had a lucky stroke where a super-economy ticket showed as being available when it had already sold out. They wouldn't be able to force you to pay the extra money.

The number of tickets offered in each price category varies by route, by train, by time of day, day of the week, and by time of year. On popular routes, very few super-economy tickets are offered and they sell out very quickly. On less popular times of day, you can still get them when they've sold out at the more popular times. On less-traveled routes, there may still be good discounts the day before travel date.

Another reseller of Trenitalia (but not Italo) tickets is www.italiarail.com . I just checked their prices, and the economy tickets there (Florence to Venice) are $34, against Raileurope's $35; the super-economy tickets are $22 rather than $23. The last I heard, Italiarail had an "electronic processing fee" of $5, but no delivery fee. So Italiarail is a little cheaper.

>>> I have looked at both Trenitalia and Rail Europe and Rail Europe is quite a bit cheaper, even including the $7.95 shipping (for an e-ticket!)<<<
>>>I assure you, I did a true apples to apples comparison. Rail Europe was cheaper on one train and about the same on the other.<<<

There is no way RE is selling Trenitalia tickets cheaper than Trenitalia. I've priced them dozens of times (when someone says that) and RE marks up the exchange plus tacks on a fee. They have never been cheaper. Are you comparing Italo trains/prices to Trenitalia trains/prices?

Italo is a different rail company from Trenitlaia. If you want their trains and their tickets, buy on their website. RE will mark up in the exchange and tack on their fee.

>>> Italo for the Venice-Milan but they don't have trains into Milan Centrale<<

That's right. Italo uses some of the lesser stations more out of the way. It will require extra transport within some cities (metro/bus).

Without your dates and times of travel it is hard to respond.

>>>Also, the Rail Europe prices were in US dollars, so I don't have to wonder what the exchange rate would be and I know exactly what I paid.<<<

Yes, it's called DCC and always to their advantage.

>>>I wonder if the inventory changes from hour to hour, like with airfares. Also, on trenitalia, the cheaper tickets were leaving from and/or going to train stations that I did not want to go to/from.<<<

I'm wondering what link you might have used because RE is the one that doesn't show all trains. They are simply a reseller like Italiarail.

>>>Also, on trenitalia, the cheaper tickets were leaving from and/or going to train stations that I did not want to go to/from.<<<

I'm really wondering how this could possibly be. It's not like Trenitalia is some reseller. They are the Italian state rail company and they go to all the stations unless it's private lines (like the Circumvesuviana in Sorrento). Italo uses Trenitalia's stations.

"Also, on trenitalia, the cheaper tickets were leaving from and/or going to train stations that I did not want to go to/from."

Very odd. Most people are unfamiliar with the stations used for some Italotreno services in Milan and Rome. Everywhere else, both operators use the same stations - and the alleged inconvenience of Porta Garibaldi (Milan) and Tiburtina (Rome) says more about the limited perspective of guide writers than the excellent public transport networks linking these stations to the rest of their conurbation.

laurieco,

I think you did quite well on your purchase.

Trentialia fast trains use Venice Mestre station in addition to Santa Lucia station, whereas Italo does not. Porta Garibaldi in Milan is not a convenient station for people needing to get to the airport or make connections other than urban destinations inside Milan.

" Porta Garibaldi in Milan is not a convenient station for people needing to get to the airport"
There are just 34 direct trains daily which link Milano Porta Garibaldi station in 40 minutes with Malpensa Terminal 1.
That's less than the buses from Milano Centrale or the trains from Milano Cadorna, but the waiting time at Milano PG exceeds 20 min in 3 of all 40 cases (arrivals of Italo and Trenitalia trains from Venice, Bologna etc. and Turin) only.

BTW: It's perfectly possible to travel with Italo from Venice to Milan for as less as 24 EUR (with a train change at Bologna) if you book well in advance.
For May 10th they offer for 24 EUR: Venezia SL dp 12.55 - Bologna 14.20/15.03 - Milano Porta Garibaldi ar 16.18

>>>You may have had a lucky stroke where a super-economy ticket showed as being available when it had already sold out. <<<

It's possible there were some of those spring rates that have the extra few euro off the super economy prices (17€ instead of 19€).

I think why laurieco didn't see all trains on Trenitalia was the city selection on auto-fill. If you select Milan only (Firenze only, etc.), you don't see all the fast trains and other stations appear (Firenze Campo di Marte, etc.) which are only served by slower trains. If you pick the exact stations in the auto-fill (Centrale, SMN), you get those stations only. On the Italian version of the website, there is also a box pre-selected to show all trains or you can click the other box to show Frecce only (it used to be pre-selected to show Frecce only).

flanner - The cheaper (cheapest) tickets (as little as 9€ on some of these routes) on Trenitalia are showing for the IC or R trains (slower trains), not the fastest trains. Italo doesn't operate between Milan to Venice. You would have to go to Bologna, change trains for one to Venice.

>>>There are just 34 direct trains daily which link Milano Porta Garibaldi station in 40 minutes with Malpensa Terminal 1.<<<

Yes and Trenord operates the trains in the region (Lombardy). You can buy your tickets (12€) to and from the airport on their website (no mark-up and no fees). You select day/time and the ticket will have a 4 hour window of use. On their website, you do want to just enter Milan and Malpensa in the box. On the next screen, you will get a drop down box to select which Milan station and Malpensa will auto-fill to aeroporto.
***The ticket has to be used within 4 hours from the chosen date/hour of the trip (not after the end of the service)***

http://www.trenord.it/en/

fact is the RailEurope now in the case of Italy, France and Germany on some trains at least taps right into those counries' rail web sites and of course Italo GTren too of which RE's parent company the SNCF or French Railways is a stakeholder.

The old myth that RE is always always much more expensive is now a myth - it was true a year or two ago but no more as the OP found out.

and all things equal book RE if an American - if you cancel our trip, etc a refund may be easier (if any refund is guaranteed).

<There is no way RE is selling Trenitalia tickets cheaper than Trenitalia. I've priced them dozens of times (when someone says that) and RE marks up the exchange plus tacks on a fee. They have never been cheaper>

I have done similar comparisons and at times have found trains on RE slightly cheaper tha trenitalia.com - not always or not often but I have found it to be so true now and if your take the 3% foreign exchange conversion fee out that may make it cheaper too.

Always these days check www.raileurope.com and www.trenitalia.com and Italo sites and see which is best - for RE products I always recommend either using www.ricksteves.com or www.budgeteuropetravel.com because you can actually talk to someone who knows a lot - RE agents themselves seem only to know prices. www.seat61.com the now the bible of discounted fares.

But the days when one could claim that RE is always way overpriced are gone - though this may not yet be the cast on Fodor's and other sites - the current conditions often take a few years to take hold in folks minds - especially ones who are only repeating what they have heard (not including kybourbon ir bvlience - two Italian train fare gurus who constantly help flummoxed Foroites out of the trenitalia.com site's fog.

I am wondering if Laurie just scanned over the words trenitalia and italotreno thinking it was the same and not realizing that they are different websites and different organizations. If she never actually went to the Italo website that would explain part of her posts.

In any event sounds like she snagged some super economy fares. I hope raileurope doesn't actually send paper tickets, another thing to keep track of and potentially lose.

PQ: seat61.com is the bible if the European train experience with copious information about the best trains and what the classes of trains look like, with great photos. But he is only vaguely interested in fares. His site mostly offers platitudes like, "Europeans don't buy their train tickets early" and to not look for fares more that 90 days out. When trenitalia offers only 8 super economy fares on their website 120 days out and they are sold within days, how is seat61.com's advice helpful to the budget traveler? He will miss out.

Here's another seat61 example
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...-to-prague.cfm
Note the confidence of the last sentence "Oh, and if you wanted Prague to Budapest, you'd want the CZECH Railways website, unless it was a round trip starting in Budapest."

This isn't good budget fare advice. For example on another routing, from Venice to Innsbruck the fare from the trenitalia website (where the train starts) can be much more than for the same train on the Austrian train website (they own the train). For my instance it is about 50 euros more to buy from the trenitalia website than the Austrian website, since trenitalia adds a 4.50 euro surcharge when issuing tickets on Austrian trains, and then uses Italian rules to issue the ticket rather than Austrian: In Italy the under 14 child rides at half fare, in Austria it's free.

So the accurate budget fare advice would have been to "Check both the websites for the arrival and destination countries for the best fare." All I am saying is that seat61 is not really concerned about snagging budget fares, but is a good resource for other things about European train travel.

All I am saying is that seat61 is not really concerned about snagging budget fares, but is a good resource for other things about European train travel.>

That may be but Man in Seat 61 is trying to make his very very VERY commercial site even more commerically a success - he said it now allowed him to retire from his British train position - and devot fulltime to his site - which he makes cheap tickets the number one calling card - going from one travel site like Fodor's and many others dropping constantly things like 'Venice to Florence' from 9 euros or Vienna to Verona from 19 euros, " etc - always from and - just popping in sporadically to flog his site, which I do find like tom is full of nice good info - I am not an expert on discounted fares and assumed his site was - have to take a better look but still will always recommend his site as the exceptional type one with a lot of info and not just selling tickets or railpasses as so many do.

and yes take from tom - do your homework - check all possible sites, inlcuding now Rail Europe if in North America especially.

neckervd, so fine for Malpensa if you are coming into Porta Garibaldi (didn't know that), but not so fine if you want Linate, or want another train heading out of Centrale. I also think the much greater number of reasonable hotels around Centrale make it an easier place to spend the night before a morning departure from Malpensa, which is a very common travel need for visitors to Italy flying transatlantic.

As for Man in Seat 61, I think his approach to train travel is great. Just in general, I think most people are not train nerds or fare nerds, and are willing to pay a small premium for simplifying their train travel both when it comes to possibly booking tickets through a re-seller or choosing Centrale over Porta Garibaldi. The amounts are often trivial. Ditto for paying for a higher class of service in exchange for more comfort, or choosing a fast train over a slow (or vice versa for scenic routes).

But I think laurieco should be happy with her/his purchase, and spending more hours on the computer to possibly save 13 euros or less isn't everybody's idea of victory.

I did go to both the trenitalia and italo websites. The ticket for the trenitalia train is an e-ticket and for the italo, I have a printout with a confirmation number which we show on the train, along with picture ID.

I can't worry about whether I may have overpaid by a Euro or two. It was much simpler buying both from the same site, especially since one is on a trenitalia train and one on an italo train.

I appreciate all the answers and help. It is always a good idea to check all options. I ended up paying a fortune for tickets to see Leonardo's Last Supper when we will be in Milan. I failed to check what the normal price is and just bought tickets online, happy to even get them. My consolation is, people on this forum said they can be almost impossible to get so I'm not sorry.

I don't worry about the foreign transaction fees since my credit card does not charge one, but in this case, there probably would not have been one anyway, although, I was once charged a foreign transaction fee with another card for lunch at a restaurant in Jamaica, even though I was charged in US dollars! This was with a Citibank American Airlines card. Suffice it to say, I no longer use that one overseas.

This was with a Citibank American Airlines card. Suffice it to say, I no longer use that one overseas.>

Sounds like the infaamous Dynamic Conversion B.S. that goes on at times in Europe these days.

Pal, I have a Chase Signature card that does not charge any fee. I also have a debit card from Charles Schwab that does not charge a foreign transaction fee, and they refund all ATM fees too.

Palenq, the following is definitely not true:

<< and all things equal book RE if an American - if you cancel our trip, etc a refund may be easier (if any refund is guaranteed). >>

I noticed yesterday under the terms and conditions on the RailEurope site that they charged a fee (20% if I remember correctly) to change a full-fare ticket, where there would be no charge for changing it if you bought it on the Trenitalia site. In another case, I think with Economy tickets, where Trenitalia does charge a fee, RailEurope tacked on an additional fee of their own.

Laureico, your experience in Jamaica does sound like a dynamic currency conversion issue, which is not the fault of the card issuer. The merchant does the conversion for you, charging you in dollars instead of the local currency. In doing this, they always overcharge on the exchange rate. The purchase is always in the local currency, though, which is why the foreign transaction fee is added. Whenever a merchant offers to charge you in dollars, insist that you want to be charged in the local currency. Some merchants don't even ask, they just present you a bill in dollars, but you should tell them that's not what you want.

One needs to understand that DCC is entirely different from a foreign transaction fee.

bvlenci, thanks for explaining that. It was the first, and only time that ever happened. It was a few years ago when I was on a (ugh) family cruise. I was not given a choice, they took my credit card and charged in dollars. I guess at the time, I didn't think much of it but whenever I have been asked, usually at duty free shops at airports in Europe, I always say to charge in the local currency.