Animal cruelty in Italy - why do people ride those horse carriages???!
 

I've been in Rome for a few days now and thought I would share what I'm sure everybody would find as appaling as I did. Its been scorching hot here the past few days, especially during the middle of the day. We've been doing a lot of walking, touring, site seeing etc and at almost every major site (coliseum, various squares, pantheon, spanish steps, etc) there were a handfull of horse carriages just waiting, unoccupied with these horses waiting...patiently, sadly, with what seemed like a million strings attached to their head, in the heat, tied down, looking miserable. It was heartbreaking to see. On one occasion this poor horse had either his bit placed incorrectly and/or one of the ropes was tied way too tightly such that he couldn't really bend his head - I stood there in front of the coliseum, watching this poor guy in the heat, struggling, constantly fighting the bit, almost choking on it. I felt horrible and thought, oh maybe the owner doesn't realize what is going on and mistakingly tied this way too tight. So I went over to him and very politely said excuse me sir, I was just wondering, I think actually your horse is struggling over there, he looks really uncomfortable. This guy looked up from his newspaper, gave me this vicious angry look, and simply turned his back on me. No response nothing. Clearly he knew what I was saying and what was going on but just simply couldn't care less. He looked like a pretty vicious person so I didn't want to argue but nonetheless I felt heartbroken for this poor creature that has been subjected to such slavery. Anyway, we continued our journey through rome and arrived at another location where again, a bunch of unoccupied carriages. I went up to one and was petting him. He looked so hot, so tired, and just frustrated. As I looked carefully at his head, there was a cut about the size of a quarter with dried blood all over it where part of the contraption on his face had been digging into it. I check the other side of his head and sure enough, same thing. Nobody was there for me to talk to about this and even if there had been, I'm sure it would have been met with some obnoxious carelessness.

Anyway! The reason I wanted to share this is because I thought maybe it would inspire those that tend to enjoy the carriage ride to think twice. There's nothing nice or romantic about this. People shouldn't give these people business so that ultimately this form of "service" stops alltogther. Looking at these horses was painful; I can't imagine, in this heat, tied up, just standing there, can't move, no water, no means to cool down or just live a normal horse life...

I got back to the hotel early and was searching about this on the internet; there are a lot of sites about this. It just made me so angry that the owner could have cared less and that clearly these horses are abused and exploited.

"So I went over to him and very politely said excuse me sir, I was just wondering, I think actually your horse is struggling over there, he looks really uncomfortable. This guy looked up from his newspaper, gave me this vicious angry look, and simply turned his back on me. No response nothing. Clearly he knew what I was saying "

In precisely which language was this interfering lecture addressed to the driver?

What, exactly, is a "normal horse life"? It would seem to me that the normal horse life would involve being a beast of burden, as they have been domesticated for such use for at least the past 5000 years.

Try contacting http://www.enpa.it/it/. scroll down for the English button.

You think these horses that are wasting away in the heat without access to water, having to stand in one place on concrete, in the crowded streets full of noise, cars, and pollution that is a normal and natural life for them???? Try doing some internet searches and you will find a lot of information.

Hit return too soon.
Horses regularly chomp on their bit. It doesn't mean there is a problem with it. the strings over his face were probably to protect him from flies. Did he look healthy otherwise - plenty of meat on him or were a lot of ribs and his hip bones showing? It is not good for horses to drink a lot at once - they can get colic and die, so maybe that was a reason for no water - the driver probably gave him regular access to water. It is in the drivers interest to keep the horse healthy - a sick horse can't work, and even in Italy horses are expensive.
But try contacting the enpa if you are really concerned about the horse's condition.
But try contacting the enpa if you are really concerned about the horse's condition.

Thanks for the link!! I will write to them.

Hetismij, it varied between the horses. The one that looked incredibly frustrated who couldn't lower his head didn't look particularly skinny but definitely I saw some that had bones and wondered if they were sick maybe. The other horse that I mentioned had a cut on each side of the face from the contraption on his head, looked like the edge just kept digging into his skin and I'm not sure why they just didn't loosen it, or give him a better fitting one.
I never really thought so much about horse carriage rides being cruel necessarily until I came to rome; after searching on the internet about this particular topic, I've found more and more evidence supporting what my gut told me.

<i>It is in the drivers interest to keep the horse healthy - a sick horse can't work, and even in Italy horses are expensive.</i>

Exactly. The economics alone dictate that the owner is caring for the animal's needs.

<i>You think these horses that are wasting away in the heat without access to water, having to stand in one place on concrete, in the crowded streets full of noise, cars, and pollution that is a normal and natural life for them????</i>

It isn't like the horse was snatched from the wild and his loving parents like in a Disney movie, the horse was born and raised to do this sort of work.

This is considered cruelty to animals in some cities, and I know at least one horse was killed this way in New York City -- it spooked due to the traffic or something. This practice is actually banned in Paris exactly because of cruelty to animals issue, as well as just the fact that this is completely inappropriate in the middle of a big city, it affects traffic a lot.

So don't believe that these horses are having wonderful lives and that everyone thinks this is a great practice. I agree with you, I think it's obscene and just an obnoxious thing that people do for no good reason. Get out and walk.

So just because he wasn't "snatched" from the wild from his parents, its okay to make him work in 90 degree sunshine, on concrete, hours at a time, and during breaks to have to stand there, in one place, in the chaos, noise and pollution? to suffer cuts on the head because of all the crazy contraptions they tie and place on them? They were NEVER raised to do this type of work! Seriously, thats no justification. I bet in 100 years we are going to look back on this practice, just like slavery and think how barbaric, backwards we were to allow such a thing. If you search, plenty of animals have died on the streets (in fact I found one example of one horse dying in Rome on one site), suffered heat stroke and have passed out and have increased frequency of respiratory disorders due to pollution. They were not MADE for this life style - no way shape or form, don't fool yourself.

<i>I bet in 100 years we are going to look back on this practice, just like slavery and think how barbaric, backwards we were to allow such a thing.</i>

Perhaps. To me, though, either they are property or they are not. Is it okay to wear leather? To eat meat? While I find hard-core vegetarians annoying, you can at least admire their logical consistency. To breed, raise, and kill an animal for meat or leather, yet object to using a horse to pull a carriage is completely illogical to me.

Were you railing equally about the fact that near the horse, a restaurant was serving meat, then I would grudgingly acknowledge the logical consistency of the argument. Barring that, it all seems a bit like a case of "the animal is cute, therefore it is worth protecting" to me.

Myself, I would consider myself a hypocrite to have chowed down on the chicken burrito I ate tonight, only to worry about whether some horse might prefer to not pull a carriage. It is either okay to use animals to suit our purposes (clothing, food, transport) or it is not. I think it is okay.

I think travelgourmet's economic analysis is probably correct in most cases. His alternative to pulling a carriage might be to get eaten, by people or in dog food.

I honestly don't remember seeing horse on a menu in Italy (unlike France), but they eat plenty of donkey. My wife, by the way, wouldn't order it on the grounds that she won't eat anything that wears a hat!

<i>His alternative to pulling a carriage might be to get eaten, by people or in dog food.</i>

Don't forget the glue factory!

FWIW, horse is readily available in the supermarkets in Switzerland. Personally, I'm not crazy about horse, but it isn't bad. I wouldn't go out of my way to order it, but wouldn't turn it down if someone put it in front of me.

Well, its a difference in personal opinion. I don't think slauterhouses are right. I never eat red meat, occasionally chicken. I don't use leather products, no real fur. However, I understand that there are people that do and at the same time, would be totally sympathetic to this particular case. Just because you ate a chicken burrito last night, doesn't make you exempt from feeling angry and appalled about this type of thing. If you use your logic above, nobody should ever be angry or upset about anything. There are always inconsistencies in this world but stopping them one by one is better than sitting back and saying oh heck with it, there are other wrongs in this world and so that justifies this or makes this one okay, etc.

They are property but they need to be respected. Just like we respect our dogs and cats (or at least I would hope we would), they same needs to be alloted to these animals. If the same situation in public existed but with dogs, i'm sure people would be more outraged...but thats just the psychological slant that skews our perception of the situation.

smr00, I haven't witnessed what you saw in Rome, but you will find plenty of people on these boards who consider it acceptable to watch a wounded bull being tantalised and teased until it is so weak it can take no more. Apparently it is a noble sport, and OK because it is traditional. Opinions on animal cruelty come in all shades.

Having a go at the driver will achieve nothing. As you feel so strongly about what you saw I suggest you go for the Italian welfare organisation website.

<i>Just because you ate a chicken burrito last night, doesn't make you exempt from feeling angry and appalled about this type of thing.</i>

Actually it does. Or at least it should. If it doesn't, then you aren't really thinking through the ethics of eating the burrito.

<i>If you use your logic above, nobody should ever be angry or upset about anything.</i>

Not true at all. I have great concern for people, for instance. Heck, I strenuously oppose the death penalty. My point is that your "logic" entails no real logic at all. It is okay to eat chicken, but not to use a horse to pull a cart. Why?

<i>If the same situation in public existed but with dogs, i'm sure people would be more outraged</i>

It sure would. And it would be a symptom of the same lack of logic that I object to. I am perfectly okay with dog-fighting, for example. I mean that. I have no interest in ever going to a dog-fight, but I am okay with it. At the end of the day, most people only assign value to the dog because of what the dog (or dogs, generally) means to them. It is a selfish selflessness, if you will. It isn't based upon any deeply held belief that dogs have an innate right to a particular brand of treatment. If it were, then how would such a person reconcile their disdain for dog-fighting with eating that chicken burrito?

TG, we were never arguing about eating a chicken burrito! Thats an ancillary point. My point was about the horse - using a comparison to say that this is okay is ridiculous. Anyway, while we are on the topic one could make the argument that eating some form of meat is necessary for ones health but horse carriages have absolutely no necessity (especially in our day an age, where people can walk, take the bus, train, taxi, car, subway) and in fact does considerable damage to these creatures. If you believe dog fighting is okay, arguing about this is a moot point - I'm sure we'll never agree about this issue.

<i>TG, we were never arguing about eating a chicken burrito! Thats an ancillary point.</i>

It is only an ancillary point if you haven't thought about the issue. You are saying that a chicken is less valuable than a horse. Period. Indeed, you are saying that the chicken has substantially less value, since you have no issue with an activity (eating the chicken burrito) that necessarily results in the chicken's death, while admonishing an activity that doesn't necessarily kill the horse.

All I am asking for is a convincing argument as to why the horse deserves a protection you seem unwilling to offer the chicken. Unfortunately, such arguments are usually in short supply, as they are here.

Eating chicken (or any animal) that had been raised under proper conditions and treated well is okay. If the chicken got raised in jail-like factories without daylight or space to run around, I would not want to eat it.

Riding a horse or a carriage when the horse can work under proper conditions is also okay. If the horse was, for example, working in a park with unpaved paths, and was able to rest in the shadow between jobs, and got properly fed, I would not have a problem with it.

It does not matter if the creature is cuddly or not, IMO.

<i>Eating chicken (or any animal) that had been raised under proper conditions and treated well is okay.</i>

Let the rationalization continue. Put this into plain English:

It is okay to breed, raise, and slaughter an animal for our consumption, as long as it is treated "well".

Of course, we define "well". We also ignore the moral implications of creating a life simply to kill it.

But that is okay, as long as we have some arbitrary measure of humanity to latch onto. We can feel self-righteous about the free-range chicken (vs the commercially raised chicken) without actually thinking through the sticky moral question of whether either chicken would have existed, except to serve our needs.

For most, except the truly committed, the only truthful answer is that they will justify pretty much anything for what they want or need. Alas, that is where we are left with when it comes to questions of animal cruelty. There is a huge reservoir of folks ready to scream solidarity, even though their solidarity is simply born from the fact that it matched their unchallenged, simpleton view of things from the beginning.

I completely disagree with you. I think you are trying really hard to rationalize this by saying that just because the chicken is allowed to be slautered for food it is okay to enslave the horse, make it "work" under conditions that endager its physical and emotional health for no good reason. I don't believe that the same should apply to chickens and that certain rules/restrictions should apply to particular animals. If they decided to ban slautering of animals for food, personally i'd be fine with it and back it. However I know there are people that wouldn't (like my husband who eats meat but was appalled by the conditions of the horses); he sees eating meat as more of a necessary and while would never support the cruelty of their life conditions, probably would think it were okay to consume. I just think you are trying to say that just because the chicken is not afforded a certain type of protection, neither should the horse? That makes no sense. Try applying that logic to life, to the world and you will see it is a very dangerous way of looking at things...

Travelgourmet's view is "don't try to fix anything because you can't fix everything." And if you do try to improve the fate of even one animal without becoming a vegan, then you're a hypocrite and anything you say should be dismissed with contempt. Travelgourmet's vies are among the most callous, self-serving, and arrogant I've ever encountered on Fodors (which is saying a lot).
Tradition alone is never a good reason to keep up a practice. If we followed "tradition", then horses would still be forced into bearing reins. (child labor, slavery and female circumcision would be legal too, they all have strong roots in cultural traditions.)

There very well may be carriage drivers who don't take good care of their horses, despite economic reasons to do so. The proof that many people don't always make sound economic decisions is all over the news!

I'm not against carriage rides per se. Many places have strict controls (temp, humidity, access to shade, water etc) under which horses can work. But if you believe the horse truly was working under inhumane conditions, then by all means speak out. And put Travelgourmet's opinion in the trash can where it belongs.

</i>I just think you are trying to say that just because the chicken is not afforded a certain type of protection, neither should the horse?</i>

This is exactly right. I see no reason why the horse should have more protection than the chicken. Why do you think the horse is more deserving of protection than the chicken?

<i>Try applying that logic to life, to the world and you will see it is a very dangerous way of looking at things...</i>

I don't think it dangerous at all. You want to paint me as some sort of monster because I simply view a chicken and a horse as deserving the same respect. Frankly, I find making exceptions, as you are seeking to do with horses, far more problematic. When I draw the line, I draw the line.

<i>Travelgourmet's vies are among the most callous, self-serving, and arrogant I've ever encountered on Fodors (which is saying a lot).</i>

My views sure do come across as callous on this issue. But I stand by it. Self-serving, though? Arrogant? Absolutely not. Self-serving is pretending that eating meat is a "necessity", while painting yourself a hero because you oppose having a horse pull a carriage. Arrogance is pretending that your view of life is the "right" one and should be adopted globally, as you seek to do.

This thread perfectly illustrates the double-standard employed by most animal-rights activists. Chickens, for example, don't deserve respect but the horse does? I admire the beauty of a fine race horse. They are, frankly, far more beautiful than a chicken. But why should that afford them greater protection? It is a Disney fiction, not something based upon real consideration of the ethics.

You should also blame the tourists, they think that strolling around Villa Borghese,Pincio or other famous sights in a horse- drawn carriage is so romantic..

If people quit riding these carriages then perhaps this practice will stop..

I DONT THINK that is romantic at all and feel very sorry for these poor beautiful animals.

travelgourmet, it's more important to be protected from slavery than from death.

I agree and refuse to take carriage rides.

Thin

I also agree and we never took a carriage ride and I never will.

Also, some Italians have the habit of dumping their dogs along the roadway when they take off for their annual vacation and get a different dog when they return and dump that dog when taking the next year's vacation. That is horrible too. And many of my friends in Italy agree.

Agree that no horses should have to live this way. there are still horse carriages in NYC, which I completely disagree with. but there are now very stringent laws - including that the horses must be returned to their barns if the temp reaches 90 - so at least they don;t have heat stroke.

As for horses being "beasts" of burden - yes, they used to be. And we used to have bear baiting and cock fighting too. Thankfully all of these things have been made illegal - and at least here in the US well-known public figures have done significant jail time for taking part in dog fighting and mistreating the animals. This should be the law everywhere.

(And you're not allowed to make 5 year olds work anymore - or beat your wife - either.)

I know how you feel

flanneruk and smorr00: NYC Carriage drivers also tend to be nasty as well.

Why don't we talk about rickshaws and pedicabs for awhile. Is there a big difference between the horse and the human pedicab driver? We use them both to move us from place to place with little regard to the "morals" of doing so.

Why are we resurrecting a thread from 2009?