Animal cruelty in Italy - why do people ride those horse carriages???!
 

I've been in Rome for a few days now and thought I would share what I'm sure everybody would find as appaling as I did. Its been scorching hot here the past few days, especially during the middle of the day. We've been doing a lot of walking, touring, site seeing etc and at almost every major site (coliseum, various squares, pantheon, spanish steps, etc) there were a handfull of horse carriages just waiting, unoccupied with these horses waiting...patiently, sadly, with what seemed like a million strings attached to their head, in the heat, tied down, looking miserable. It was heartbreaking to see. On one occasion this poor horse had either his bit placed incorrectly and/or one of the ropes was tied way too tightly such that he couldn't really bend his head - I stood there in front of the coliseum, watching this poor guy in the heat, struggling, constantly fighting the bit, almost choking on it. I felt horrible and thought, oh maybe the owner doesn't realize what is going on and mistakingly tied this way too tight. So I went over to him and very politely said excuse me sir, I was just wondering, I think actually your horse is struggling over there, he looks really uncomfortable. This guy looked up from his newspaper, gave me this vicious angry look, and simply turned his back on me. No response nothing. Clearly he knew what I was saying and what was going on but just simply couldn't care less. He looked like a pretty vicious person so I didn't want to argue but nonetheless I felt heartbroken for this poor creature that has been subjected to such slavery. Anyway, we continued our journey through rome and arrived at another location where again, a bunch of unoccupied carriages. I went up to one and was petting him. He looked so hot, so tired, and just frustrated. As I looked carefully at his head, there was a cut about the size of a quarter with dried blood all over it where part of the contraption on his face had been digging into it. I check the other side of his head and sure enough, same thing. Nobody was there for me to talk to about this and even if there had been, I'm sure it would have been met with some obnoxious carelessness.

Anyway! The reason I wanted to share this is because I thought maybe it would inspire those that tend to enjoy the carriage ride to think twice. There's nothing nice or romantic about this. People shouldn't give these people business so that ultimately this form of "service" stops alltogther. Looking at these horses was painful; I can't imagine, in this heat, tied up, just standing there, can't move, no water, no means to cool down or just live a normal horse life...

I got back to the hotel early and was searching about this on the internet; there are a lot of sites about this. It just made me so angry that the owner could have cared less and that clearly these horses are abused and exploited.

"So I went over to him and very politely said excuse me sir, I was just wondering, I think actually your horse is struggling over there, he looks really uncomfortable. This guy looked up from his newspaper, gave me this vicious angry look, and simply turned his back on me. No response nothing. Clearly he knew what I was saying "

In precisely which language was this interfering lecture addressed to the driver?

What, exactly, is a "normal horse life"? It would seem to me that the normal horse life would involve being a beast of burden, as they have been domesticated for such use for at least the past 5000 years.

Try contacting http://www.enpa.it/it/. scroll down for the English button.

You think these horses that are wasting away in the heat without access to water, having to stand in one place on concrete, in the crowded streets full of noise, cars, and pollution that is a normal and natural life for them???? Try doing some internet searches and you will find a lot of information.

Hit return too soon.
Horses regularly chomp on their bit. It doesn't mean there is a problem with it. the strings over his face were probably to protect him from flies. Did he look healthy otherwise - plenty of meat on him or were a lot of ribs and his hip bones showing? It is not good for horses to drink a lot at once - they can get colic and die, so maybe that was a reason for no water - the driver probably gave him regular access to water. It is in the drivers interest to keep the horse healthy - a sick horse can't work, and even in Italy horses are expensive.
But try contacting the enpa if you are really concerned about the horse's condition.
But try contacting the enpa if you are really concerned about the horse's condition.

Thanks for the link!! I will write to them.

Hetismij, it varied between the horses. The one that looked incredibly frustrated who couldn't lower his head didn't look particularly skinny but definitely I saw some that had bones and wondered if they were sick maybe. The other horse that I mentioned had a cut on each side of the face from the contraption on his head, looked like the edge just kept digging into his skin and I'm not sure why they just didn't loosen it, or give him a better fitting one.
I never really thought so much about horse carriage rides being cruel necessarily until I came to rome; after searching on the internet about this particular topic, I've found more and more evidence supporting what my gut told me.

<i>It is in the drivers interest to keep the horse healthy - a sick horse can't work, and even in Italy horses are expensive.</i>

Exactly. The economics alone dictate that the owner is caring for the animal's needs.

<i>You think these horses that are wasting away in the heat without access to water, having to stand in one place on concrete, in the crowded streets full of noise, cars, and pollution that is a normal and natural life for them????</i>

It isn't like the horse was snatched from the wild and his loving parents like in a Disney movie, the horse was born and raised to do this sort of work.

This is considered cruelty to animals in some cities, and I know at least one horse was killed this way in New York City -- it spooked due to the traffic or something. This practice is actually banned in Paris exactly because of cruelty to animals issue, as well as just the fact that this is completely inappropriate in the middle of a big city, it affects traffic a lot.

So don't believe that these horses are having wonderful lives and that everyone thinks this is a great practice. I agree with you, I think it's obscene and just an obnoxious thing that people do for no good reason. Get out and walk.

So just because he wasn't "snatched" from the wild from his parents, its okay to make him work in 90 degree sunshine, on concrete, hours at a time, and during breaks to have to stand there, in one place, in the chaos, noise and pollution? to suffer cuts on the head because of all the crazy contraptions they tie and place on them? They were NEVER raised to do this type of work! Seriously, thats no justification. I bet in 100 years we are going to look back on this practice, just like slavery and think how barbaric, backwards we were to allow such a thing. If you search, plenty of animals have died on the streets (in fact I found one example of one horse dying in Rome on one site), suffered heat stroke and have passed out and have increased frequency of respiratory disorders due to pollution. They were not MADE for this life style - no way shape or form, don't fool yourself.

<i>I bet in 100 years we are going to look back on this practice, just like slavery and think how barbaric, backwards we were to allow such a thing.</i>

Perhaps. To me, though, either they are property or they are not. Is it okay to wear leather? To eat meat? While I find hard-core vegetarians annoying, you can at least admire their logical consistency. To breed, raise, and kill an animal for meat or leather, yet object to using a horse to pull a carriage is completely illogical to me.

Were you railing equally about the fact that near the horse, a restaurant was serving meat, then I would grudgingly acknowledge the logical consistency of the argument. Barring that, it all seems a bit like a case of "the animal is cute, therefore it is worth protecting" to me.

Myself, I would consider myself a hypocrite to have chowed down on the chicken burrito I ate tonight, only to worry about whether some horse might prefer to not pull a carriage. It is either okay to use animals to suit our purposes (clothing, food, transport) or it is not. I think it is okay.

I think travelgourmet's economic analysis is probably correct in most cases. His alternative to pulling a carriage might be to get eaten, by people or in dog food.

I honestly don't remember seeing horse on a menu in Italy (unlike France), but they eat plenty of donkey. My wife, by the way, wouldn't order it on the grounds that she won't eat anything that wears a hat!

<i>His alternative to pulling a carriage might be to get eaten, by people or in dog food.</i>

Don't forget the glue factory!

FWIW, horse is readily available in the supermarkets in Switzerland. Personally, I'm not crazy about horse, but it isn't bad. I wouldn't go out of my way to order it, but wouldn't turn it down if someone put it in front of me.

Well, its a difference in personal opinion. I don't think slauterhouses are right. I never eat red meat, occasionally chicken. I don't use leather products, no real fur. However, I understand that there are people that do and at the same time, would be totally sympathetic to this particular case. Just because you ate a chicken burrito last night, doesn't make you exempt from feeling angry and appalled about this type of thing. If you use your logic above, nobody should ever be angry or upset about anything. There are always inconsistencies in this world but stopping them one by one is better than sitting back and saying oh heck with it, there are other wrongs in this world and so that justifies this or makes this one okay, etc.

They are property but they need to be respected. Just like we respect our dogs and cats (or at least I would hope we would), they same needs to be alloted to these animals. If the same situation in public existed but with dogs, i'm sure people would be more outraged...but thats just the psychological slant that skews our perception of the situation.

smr00, I haven't witnessed what you saw in Rome, but you will find plenty of people on these boards who consider it acceptable to watch a wounded bull being tantalised and teased until it is so weak it can take no more. Apparently it is a noble sport, and OK because it is traditional. Opinions on animal cruelty come in all shades.

Having a go at the driver will achieve nothing. As you feel so strongly about what you saw I suggest you go for the Italian welfare organisation website.

<i>Just because you ate a chicken burrito last night, doesn't make you exempt from feeling angry and appalled about this type of thing.</i>

Actually it does. Or at least it should. If it doesn't, then you aren't really thinking through the ethics of eating the burrito.

<i>If you use your logic above, nobody should ever be angry or upset about anything.</i>

Not true at all. I have great concern for people, for instance. Heck, I strenuously oppose the death penalty. My point is that your "logic" entails no real logic at all. It is okay to eat chicken, but not to use a horse to pull a cart. Why?

<i>If the same situation in public existed but with dogs, i'm sure people would be more outraged</i>

It sure would. And it would be a symptom of the same lack of logic that I object to. I am perfectly okay with dog-fighting, for example. I mean that. I have no interest in ever going to a dog-fight, but I am okay with it. At the end of the day, most people only assign value to the dog because of what the dog (or dogs, generally) means to them. It is a selfish selflessness, if you will. It isn't based upon any deeply held belief that dogs have an innate right to a particular brand of treatment. If it were, then how would such a person reconcile their disdain for dog-fighting with eating that chicken burrito?

TG, we were never arguing about eating a chicken burrito! Thats an ancillary point. My point was about the horse - using a comparison to say that this is okay is ridiculous. Anyway, while we are on the topic one could make the argument that eating some form of meat is necessary for ones health but horse carriages have absolutely no necessity (especially in our day an age, where people can walk, take the bus, train, taxi, car, subway) and in fact does considerable damage to these creatures. If you believe dog fighting is okay, arguing about this is a moot point - I'm sure we'll never agree about this issue.

<i>TG, we were never arguing about eating a chicken burrito! Thats an ancillary point.</i>

It is only an ancillary point if you haven't thought about the issue. You are saying that a chicken is less valuable than a horse. Period. Indeed, you are saying that the chicken has substantially less value, since you have no issue with an activity (eating the chicken burrito) that necessarily results in the chicken's death, while admonishing an activity that doesn't necessarily kill the horse.

All I am asking for is a convincing argument as to why the horse deserves a protection you seem unwilling to offer the chicken. Unfortunately, such arguments are usually in short supply, as they are here.

Eating chicken (or any animal) that had been raised under proper conditions and treated well is okay. If the chicken got raised in jail-like factories without daylight or space to run around, I would not want to eat it.

Riding a horse or a carriage when the horse can work under proper conditions is also okay. If the horse was, for example, working in a park with unpaved paths, and was able to rest in the shadow between jobs, and got properly fed, I would not have a problem with it.

It does not matter if the creature is cuddly or not, IMO.