Ancient Roman sites
 

My wife and I are planning a 12-day vacation to Italy in February, and we are interested in seeing as many ancient Roman sites as possible. I've been to Rome once before and have seen the most famous sites, but I'm wondering whether there are lesser known sites near Rome or Naples that anyone could recommend.

Our plan is:

First night in Milan
Two nights in Florence (day trip to Fiesole)
5 nights in Rome (day trips to Ostia and Tivoli)
3 nights near Naples (day trips to Pompeii and Herculaneum)

Also, we are looking for a hotel in Rome that has a historic feel, the older the better.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

"there are lesser known sites near Rome or Naples that anyone could recommend."

The Bay of Naples area is stuffed with ancient (not all necessarily Roman) sites, and you can scarcely walk round central Naples for more than a few minutes without stumbling over some modernish (15th century or thereabouts normally) building with a trapdoor leading down into something dating to between the 5th century BC and the early ADs. Just Museo tube station has more layers of ancient dwelling visible than all but a handful of European cities.

Go to the Campania Artecard site (http://www.campaniartecard.it/), look at the Tutta la Regione section, then the sites in 'Siti archeologici' and Grotte e Sottosuolo' under the "Artecard is" tab at the top left.

There simply isn't time in three days to scratch the surface. And you have to decide how crucial ancient Naples is for you, compared to the relics of the more recent thousand years or so - especially given that the best artefacts from Pompeii and Herculaneum are in the main Naples Museum.

In fact, if you're more interested in what the Romans designed and manufactured than how they lived, there's a serious argument you get more bang per second at the Museum than at the immense and very, very time consuming sites in Pompeii and Herculaneum.

Incidentally, when it rains around the Bay of Naples it rains seriously. Worth remembering before committing to a day or two in largely open archaeological sites. Lots of cover inside the houses- but you've still got to walk miles between them: the Romans didn't do arcades, but did use paving material in their streets which gets jolly slippy in the rain

In/near Rome have you seen the Temple of Mithras in San Clemente church and the ancient port Ostia Antica.

Near Naples have you seen Pompeii (will take the best part of a day) and Herculaneum? And what about the Roman ruins on Capri?

There are dozens of ancient Roman sites in and near Rome. Which of the following have you already seen?

Domus Romane under Palazzo Valentini
Case Romane under the church of SS Giovanni e Paolo
Baths of Diocletian (spread among various sites, including the Basilica of Santa Maria degli Angeli e dei Martiri)
Baths of Caracalla
Basilica of Santa Sabina
Church of Santa Costanza
Catacombs
Ara Pacis
Foro Argentina
three Roman temples near Santa Maria in Cosmedin
Capitoline Museums
National Roman Museum, especially the branches at Palazzo Massimo alle Terme and at the Museum of the Baths of Diocletian
Etruscan Museum at Villa Giulia

These are first that come to mind at the moment. I'm assuming you've seen the Roman Forum, Palatine Hill (including the museum and the House of Augustus), Imperial Forums, and Trajan's Market.

If any of the above interest you, I'll give you plenty of additional details.

bvlenci is right to point out the Etruscan Museum in Rome. But there's also a substantial Etruscan subdivision of the Vatican Museums.

The excavations under the high altar of St Peter's (usually called 'the scavi' on this site) have revealed what's now a substantial underground necropolis, mostly dating from the 2nd century AD, which is actually less cloyingly Christian than the better known, and more widely visited, catacombs physically outside the Vatican but run by the Vatican as quasi-shrines.

The Church doesn't formally claim that the remains found immediately under the altar are St Peter's, and the guides in this necropolis adopt extraordinarily precise circumlocutions to avoid making commitments the Church might be embarrassed by later.

As a result, the visit is a fascinating guide to how archaeologists make their judgements - and I'd say, the best insight into classical historiography in modern Italy.

Some lesser visited sites around Naples:

Lake Avernus (though which Aeneas reached the Underworld).

The Flegrean Fields -- volcanic area believed to be the birthplace of Vulcan.

Cumae - home of the Sybil.

Baia.

These are difficult to reach by public transit. We hired taxis from Naples.

I've been to all five catacombs, and to three of them on multiple visits. Apart from a few small modern chapels, all of them are almost entirely ancient Roman, and I don't remember anything cloyingly (seems to be a trite adjective) Christian.

My favorites include the Priscilla Catacomb, which has some splendid ancient frescoes in a little ancient chapel, showing scenes from the life of the deceased and biblical scenes (from the Hebrew scriptures). The St. Agnes catacomb has nothing ornate, just graves, but it's part of a complex that includes the ruins of the 4th century Basilica of Saint Agnes, built by the emperor Constantine (which can be seen only through a fence) and the ancient church of Santa Costanza, originally intended as a mausoleum for the emperor's daughter (Costanza), who died while away from Rome and so was never buried there. This church has some lovely 4th century mosaics on the ceiling of the ambulatory, including one that illustrates an ancient Roman grape harvest.

Of the three catacombs on the Appia Way, I prefer the Domatilla catacomb, which has some interesting frescoes, only some of which can be seen on the tour. San Callisto is the most visited, but it's actually the one I would least recommend to a visitor, unless they were interested in the tomb (now empty) of Santa Cecilia. It has huge crowds, stretched out along narrow corridors, so that it's difficult to see what the guide is pointing at or hear what he's saying. The guides have varied widely in their quality the times I've been there. At St. Agnes and at the Priscilla and Domitilla (neither of them saints) catacombs, I've always been part of a very small group with excellent lay guides.

The necropolis under St. Peter's Basilica was a pagan necropolis, so it couldn't be perceived as Christian, cloying or not. However, the two tours I've taken there were very religious in tone, more so than at any of the catacombs I've visited with the exception of one time as San Callisto, when the guide was an elderly American priest, who I suspected was the recipient of a collection taken up by his parishioners to send him to Rome.

There are two very nice ancient Roman painted tombs at the Museum of the Baths of Diocletian (mentioned above) that are the equal of those in the Vatican necropolis. These are in a hall to the left of the main part of the museum, as you enter. The hall is one room of the enormous Bath complex, which covered most of the area in the vicinity of Termini station, including Piazza della Repubblica and the Basilica of Santa Maria degli Anglei e dei Martiri. The basilica was built in part of the ruins of the bath complex, designed mostly by Michelangelo, and you can see many elements of the ancient baths there. There is an oculus there like the one in the Pantheon, but it's been covered by a glass lantern.

Incidentally, Termini station takes its name from the Diocletian Baths (Terme in Italian). Many people seem to think it means "terminus" or "terminal".

I also neglected, because I forgot to mention them, the ancient Roman remains on the Via Appia Antica, as well as the Acqueduct Park.

The Estruscan collection at the Vatican Museums is indeed very impressive; the Egyptian collection is even more so. I assumed RedPanda had already been there, as this is his second visit to Rome.

It reminds me that, if there is enough time, a visit to the Etruscan Necropoli of Cerveteri and Tarquinia would be very rewarding. It's best to visit these with a car; you can get to both by train, but with a car, you could visit both on the same day. Tarquinia has a first-class Etruscan museum; there is also a museum in Cerveteri, but we didn't get there, so I don't know what it's like.

Just back from 3 weeks in Italy in September. We thoroughly enjoyed seeing Ostia Antica, easily accessible from Rome. Tarqunia was fascinating, we spent 1/2 a day there going in and out of tombs. And because we toured the Etruscan coast as far as Livorno, we enjoyed the Etruscan collection at the Vatican that Bvlenci mentioned. So great to tie history in to what you are seeing.

t

<<<The necropolis under St. Peter's Basilica was a pagan necropolis, so it couldn't be perceived as Christian, cloying or not.>>>

Actually the "Red Wall Complex" and the large "Trophy of Gaius" over the earthen grave form an enclosed paved "courtyard" (26ftX12ft ?) and date to the time (~154AD +/-) that the large aboveground Pagan tombs were being built in that area/section alongside this Via/street.

Before that say 64AD this area/section was either just a wasteland alongside this street or a pauper's cemetery with simple inground burials likely marked with some large cheap bricktiles over the grave.

I recall 2 nearby graves date to ~70's AD based on Vespasian era brickstamps and an oil lamp.

This "St. Peter's" earth grave was shored-up twice at different periods in time with a brick wall (rising groundlevels, erosion, etc) so prior to somepersons building this complex and shrine this grave was being keep-up and if "anything" marked it before that it would have been destroyed in this 'Red Wall' enclosure and the large shrine and paved courtyard.

Bottomline; This small plot of land with later half-1C burials predates the Pagan aboveground tombs that are starting to get near this area (they are following the street up and away from the city) by 50+yrs.

So either this section was always known to the early Christians as the gravesite (post-64AD) or this section was just chosen and marked with a complex in the same timeframe as the Pagan tombs were being built there?
Either way it's a Christian monument/complex alongside a street with Pagan tombs.

I believe if you take religion out of the equation the evidence points to Group A laying claim to this area long before Group B arrived regardless of who was actually buried in that 1C grave.

There are links to the excavation reports in this Usenet post of mine if interested. Regards

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...gy/Egmr9DFYE0A

(OR)

http://tinyurl.com/petermuzzy5

Thank you for all the replies - our departure is a week away, and we are very excited!

Here is our latest itinerary (still subject to change):

Day one - arrive in Milan early morning, see Duomo, Castello Sforza, Basilica di Sant'Ambrogio, Brera Gallery

Day two - early morning see Last Supper, train to Florence arrive at noon, see Palazzo Pitti, Boboli Gardens, Uffizi Gallery

Day three - Museo Bargello, Galleria dell'Accademia, Fiesole

Day four - Santa Croce, morning train to Rome, Palazzo Valentini, Baths of Caracalla

Day five - guided tour of Colosseum, Forum, Pantheon (Dark Rome Tours?), Capitoline Museum

Day six - Ostia and Hadrian's Villa

Day seven - rental car to Stabia, Boscoreale, Paestum, hotel in Sorrento

Day eight - full day private guided tour to Pompeii, Herculaneum and Oplontis (Mondo Tours?)

Day nine - Naples Archaeological Museum, Pausilypon, Underground Naples tour

Day ten - Capua Colosseum, Cumae, drive back to Rome, Theater of Marcellus, Museo Nazionale Romano

Day eleven - St. Peter's, Vatican Museum, Via Triumphalis Necropolis

Day twelve - return home.


I realize that we will be covering a lot of ground, but we are tireless travelers who like to spend every day exploring. We are prepared to dial back a few sites if time requires.

Are there any must-see ancient sites we are missing, or anything on my list that's not worth seeing? I wanted to do the Estruscan Museum but don't seem able to fit it in. I am most intrigued by the ancient sites around Naples - I've been to Pompeii, and it is my favorite place I have ever been. I'm hoping to find similar places on a smaller scale. I've never been to Florence, and I'm not sure if we can fit Fiesole in.

I hope we will be okay renting a car from Rome - we just plan to drive the car straight out of the city and head South. Are there any other worthwhile ancient sites on the way?

First off, let me say how impressed I am by the suggestions of flanneruk, bvlenci and the others. Wow.

Let me meekly second San Clemente in Rome, and (especially) the Museum in Naples.

And on Day Six, if you go to Hadrian's Villa I suggest you visit the nearby Tivoli Gardens. They are of Renaissance rather than ancient vintage, but are extremely special in my view.

Finally, in Rome, personally I would cut the Coloseum and Forum and replace them with the Vatican Museums. But that's just me...

"see Palazzo Pitti, Boboli Gardens, Uffizi Gallery -- I would not have been able to do all that in a day that began with arrival in Florence at noon. FWIW, of these 3, I enjoyed the Uffizi the most (by far!) and the Boboli Gardens least.

When in Paestum, don't miss the archeological museum, which holds some very special pieces.

"full day private guided tour to Pompeii, Herculaneum and Oplontis (Mondo Tours?)" Since you've already been to Pompeii, this plan might work well for you. I spent a single VERY long day at Pompeii and Herculaneum.

Must you return to Rome rather than flying out of Naples? If you can travel open-jaw, you save the time it would take to backtrack and might actually have time for the amazing Etruscan Museum. :-)

Hope that helps!

In Florence, try to make it up to Piazzale Michelangelo fust before sunset(if the sky is blue,better!) Amazing view of the city and surrounding area.

You should thoroughly enjoy Ostia, but if you do it justice, you need at least 3-4 hrs there.

Dont miss Largo Argentina in the heart of Rome.

Rick Steves has free app you can download with "tours" for many of the sites you have on your list.

Buon viaggio!

PS Glad to see you're going to Santa Croce! Awesome place.

*just before sunset :)

"hotel in Sorrento" -- you might consider staying in Salerno instead -- it has a lovely Lungomare. If I understand correctly, you would end up at a different train station in Pompei than you would if traveling from Sorrento, but maybe that wouldn't matter if you are meeting up with a guide? It might save you some travel time -- or it might just shift it from a convenient time to an inconvenient one. Just a thought!

I don't see how you could visit Ostia Antica and Hadrian's Villa on the same day. Both sites are huge and the trip between them would take over an hour by car (much more if you encounter traffic on the GRA). By train and bus, it would take considerably more than that. If you've found a tour that includes both, I think it is shortchanging them.

There are four locations of the National Roman Museum. The best two if you're interested in ancient Rome are Palazzo Massimo alle Terme, which has a world-class collection of ancient sculpture, plus mosaics, wall frescoes from the Villa of Livia (wife of Augustus); and the Museo delle Terme di Diocleziano, which has the painted tombs I mentioned above, as well as (in the main building) a very interesting exhibit about ancient writing, including fascinating examples of what Romans wrote about when this was a cutting-edge technology. Both of these sites are near Termini station. You might want to visit the Basilica di Santa Maria degli Angeli e dei Martiri, which lies between the two sites, and which preserves some of the ruins of the ancient bath complex. Michelangelo designed the conversion into a church. There is also a meridian line, which was used for many years to determine the time of noon, when the basilica rang its bells so Romans could set their timepieces. In the 19th century, the bells of the basilica were substituted by a cannon fired from the Janiculum Hill; this still takes place at noon.

You asked for other suggestions. I think that the previous responses have covered just about everything.

Just remembered another great site for you in Rome: the Domus Aurea, the "Golden House." This was Nero's residence, now underground. Well worth a visit. The decor was very influential in the Renaissance, in fact inspired the word "grotesque" if I am not mistaken, as in grotto-esque.

It is very near both the Coloseum (which was named after a colossal statue of Nero, after all, and is sort of on the premises of his house) and San Clemente.

Have been trying to get to the Domus Aurea for the past 5 years and going again in Oct. I still get information that it is closed? Is it? Tks

<<<Have been trying to get to the Domus Aurea for the past 5 years and going again in Oct. I still get information that it is closed? Is it? Tks>>>

The "Domus Aurea" is one of my "google alerts" and I follow history/archaeology blogs and I haven't heard anything about it reopening IIRC.

Create a 'google alert' for it and see if anything pops-up in the news, websites, etc between now and then. Good-Luck!