Thanks Carlux, that was very helpful. I'm sorry to hear that you have lost business because of the cost of trying to pay, but, I have to say that I have done that when choosing between two apartments. I have had a business where we accepted CC and had to pay 7% because we were so small, but it was the cost of doing business and we tried to balance the cost with the price. When we accepted CC about 90% of people use cc or debit so we had to increase our prices.

I hadn't thought about the card being eaten...hummm?...although it has never ever happened to me.

I find opening a new account very easy, we have free checking and it should take 10 mins, you would have the atm cards that day or the next.

Traveling to Europe is getting so expensive for us we have to figure out ways to still do it and not break the bank. We now stay put in only one place for the 2-3 weeks. We eat in more often than not. But we still go.

This would save me way more than $35. It would save me that at least twice, the exchange rate would be another big hit, and the finial balance for 2-3 weeks is large and a hassle to get the first day(s) of vacation.

Making it easy for the landlord is the key here isn't it? We would just tell them that we are sending an atm card that they could go to the bank with and withdraw the funds from, then, please keep the card in a safe place for further payments and please return it to me when I am staying at your apartment. I don't think this would be anymore work for them and they would also avoid all the nasty charges. I would have to find someone who is Internet savvy, but, if I have found them searching on line and communicated with them through emails I think this should be a given.

I am going to rent another apartment in Grimaud next summer so I am thinking ahead as she doesn't take cc and doesn't speak English. We didn't rent it this year for these reasons and we wanted to see it and exactly where it was. It was gorgeous and I can't wait to stay there next year. If I can work this out it would probably be equal to two nights stay, which is worth working out.

I wasn't aware of possible bank fees for a bankcheck in euro (which my bank will make out), if it's some bank in another country or something. That is actually kind of expensive also, in the US, at least at my bank -- they do charge only $10 to make out a check in euro, but they have an exchange rate which marks it up 6.5% (I just checked, so I know the fees).

Those travellers check bankcards are very expensive, much more than an ATM card. They are probably the most expensive way to do this. They charge fees to get it, fees to use it, fees to close it out, on top of a bad exchange rate.

I think it is rare than an ATM machine "eats" a card, but is possible. Usually it's if they think there is fraud, or maybe if someone tries to use it unsuccessfully 3 times or more or something (Putting in wrong PIN). Checking a balance would be meaningless, anyway -- any balance in there could be gone in the next hour, that wouldn't prove anything.

I can understand why someone wouldn't trust Paypal, I'm sort of leery of them myself, although I use them. They are a very prime target of various kinds of crooks, from hackers to phishers, I think. I would just want to avoid it, if possible, myself. Besides, doesn't that cost an owner the same as a credit card, or more? There isn't any company that has proven itself that trustworthy regarding privacy and security issues, as far as I'm concerned, with databases.

Setting up a bank account would still involve time at the bank, traveling to/from, etc., even if it goes easily when there. Now some people don't value their time at all, but that alone would be worth more than $35 to me. It would alst mean monitoring statements every month, to make sure it was okay. Also, some banks won't allow you to have an account that just sits there with no activity for a long time for free.

So I think there are many drawbacks to this idea for many people, but if the time and trouble to do that and monitor it, etc., isn't a cost to you in a way that you measure, I do think it is a clever idea. However, I am not sure foreigners who cannot speak English are the ones best suited for this idea, as just explaining the whole thing could be difficult.

Susanna, I love how you're looking for alternatives in this situation and hope you'll keep us posted on how it works out for you.

Regarding giving the owners an ATM card which they return to you: I assume that an ATM card is also a debit card. If they have the card number and the three digit security code on the back, can they then order up things online even though they no longer have the physical card? They'd be taking the chance that the account has no funds, but what if they happen to hit it on the correct date -- when you have planned for a different owner to use that card?

It seems that you'd have to get a replacement card when your business with that owner is finished.

It seems to me that private citizens are totally authorized to deposit travellers' cheques in euros on their private accounts. A certain number of 100€ cheques should cover most needs -- sent by registered mail, of course.

TC's are certainly cheaper to purchase than bank transfer fees.

Ok, some new information .

Trophy: your comment was very disturbing, I hadn't thought about that.

I was at the bank today and asked how one would avoid having another person write down the card # and three didgit pin on the back and then be able to charge on the card at a later date. The way around this is to only have the bank issue an atm card, not a debit card. I really had no idea that there even was a card that you could only use in an atm machine.

The bank also informed me I could have as many free checking accounts as I wanted, which was nice to hear. I have two already so didn't know if there was a limit. I do have a business and do go to the bank once a week , I check on the accounts on line a few times during the week so opening and checking on a new account won't be any problem for me.

Thank you all so much for the great feedback, you brought up some very interesting issues.

Just to show you the kind of message I received from "Paypal" last night:

Dear Customer,

It has come to our attention that your PayPal® account information needs to be updated as part of our continuing commitment to protect your account and to reduce the instance of fraud on our website. If you could please take 5-10 minutes out of your online experience and update your personal records you will not run into any future problems with the online service.

However, failure to update your records will result in account suspension. Please update your records before August 20, 2008.

Once you have updated your account records, your PayPal® account activity will not be interrupted and will continue as normal.

Click here to update your PayPal account information (I do not have any account!)

Moreover I don't want to reflect their commission on my rates. My own charges are increasing all the time already.
I think Susan has a good idea if you book a long time in advance and are sure that the dollar will be weaker at the time of your stay. You pay early and you win on the exchange rate and on the commissions. :-)

When I set up my apartment for rental,(it's in the French Alps) I also set up Paypal accounts so that renters could pay me using that method.Regulars who are verified use echeck, which reduces the fees. Everyone does so except the French,who can easily pay me by bank transfer. Credit card company fees are too expensive for my small turnover, although I have now managed to secure lower merchant fees for Paypal which kicks in during the busy months. Not sure the bank card method suggested would be suitable for me though. My current arrangement is linked to my French bank account, although I live in the UK, so the money would be in the wrong place.

As a rental owner in France I might be open to the ATM idea, but I think many would not be. They would think it is some sort of trick.

It is not such a clear-cut solution because you have to consider you would lose money on each withdrawal because you would be using the bank's exchange rate from dollars to euros. This is always going to be different to the 'real' exchange rate and weighted in the bank's favour.

(Regarding that PayPal email quoted above, this is not from PayPal, it is a scam. If you click on the link in the email it will take you to a site that looks exactly like PayPal and invite you to type in your log-in details. If you get an email from PayPal and think it might be genuine, don't click on a link in the email, always go to PayPal the usual way.)

Welcome on board Chamoissiere and TheLuberon. It is a rush of new members from France :-)!
I know this paypal email is a scam, I just wanted to show it is one of the reasons I don't want to take Paypal.

I'm not sure owners would think it is a trick, they would just have to go to their cashpoint to cash it.

As to Paypal. I have been using it for years. As an online ESL teacher, it was the way I used to accept payment. 3-4% cost is simply a cost of business, which could easily be passed on to the consumer.

Yes, you get the emails every now and then, but I also get them from "real" banks, like BOA and Wachovia. I do not even have an account at Wachovia, so obviously these emails are just sent enmass.

I often try to get foreign small business owners to look into using Paypal, as it would greatly enhance their customer service and reduce customer wariness.

dave

There is absolutely no risk in the Paypal message as long as you don't click on it and give out your personal information. It has nothing to do with Paypal specifically. As mentioned above, I also get these types of emails from legitimate banks. That does not keep me from banking at a multinational bank, so why would it keep me from using Paypal?

I agree the fees for accepting credit cards are part of the cost of doing business. Either roll it into the rental charges, or absorb it. I think the increase in business would make up for it.

If owners don't want to pay the 4%, why not give the renters the option? Pay by wire transfer or by Paypal? If they pay by paypal, it will cost them 4% more. Or is this not legal? Or, you also have the option of not accepting credit cards through Paypal and only accepting checking account transfers, right?

I have a friend who is renting an Italian villa in October. He has to wire the balance of the payment and it's taken over a week to get all the details straightened out with his bank and get the money to the villa owners.

<i>It is not such a clear-cut solution because you have to consider you would lose money on each withdrawal because you would be using the bank's exchange rate from dollars to euros.</i>

I assume you're looking at this from the landlord's perspective. If so, I don't think your view is correct. Let's say the agreed price was &euro;100. I would deposit $200 over here and the landlord would withdraw &euro;100 in Europe. All the fees and foreign exchange markup would come out of my US funds, and not the merchant's European funds. Shopping for the best terms (conversion rate, withdrawal fee, whatever) would be my responsibility. All the merchant knows is that when s/he presses the &euro;100 button, five crisp 20s come out of the slot.

I still think it's a cracking idea.

&gt;I still think it's a cracking idea.&lt;
What does that mean :&quot;&gt;?

A great idea.

Merci Carlux I wanted to be sure :-d

I still think it's a cracking idea...I like that!

Rob: you understand perfectly what I am saying and trying to do.

I don't really understand why the landlords would think that I am trying to trick them, like RP said, they would just put the card in the atm and viola, crisp euros, how easy is that?

Ciao coco

I like Robespierre's idea of the prepaid Credit card and mail it over.

&quot;&quot;Author: Robespierre
Date: 08/04/2008, 01:33 pm
Has anyone used one of those prepaid Visa/MC cards I see on the checkout counter at Walgreen's?If their fee structure isn't exorbitant, and if they're not rejected by ATMs in Europe, ...&quot;

I'm currently going through this with the apartment I have rented in Paris.

The son-in-law who writes in English wanted me to use IBAN. I have never heard of IBAN. I told him I would wire the deposit to his MIL's bank, and that I need
Bank account and routing number, bank name and address,Mother in Laws name and address.

And then I have to pay in cash on arrival.

I'm going to take a look at one of those pre-paid credit cards and see what their exchange rate is for turning into Euros.

The pre-filled Travellers Check Cards sound good too, although I've never heard of them. I'm wondering if they're triple A, in which case their charges and exchange rates are expensive.

But going to check both out,
first by google :)

coco -

It means <i>formidable!

adj.</i>

Excellent; great: <i>had a cracking time at the dance.</i>

The greendotonline.com prepaid card charges $5 to start, $5 a month to maintain, and 3% foreign exchange markup. Nothing is mentioned regarding ATM fees (I assume it's covered).

It appears that there <u>may</u> be fees for adding funds to your account, but that these can be avoided.

I am a novice at renting in Europe - I had only done it two times in Italy - and decided that in the future I would prefer to deal with people who take my credit card for a variety of reasons.

I leave in about 6 weeks for a 5 week trip with dd and did just that - only used rental agencies that accepted my cc. I might be paying a little more (did not really seem like it) but it is far easier for me to take care of and I like the &quot;reward/miles&quot; and I like that I have the security of dealing with my Amex or Citi bank if there is an issue.

Actually I just checked out
the pre-paid green card, not such a good deal. Fees every time you turn around.

For ordering cash in Euro to be delivered to your front door with most minimal cost(one time $5.00 +/- charge) seems to be from XE currency converter.

Nevertheless in Euro in relation to the dollar, Americans are still losing 33.33% of dollar buying value when we have to pay in Euro.

http://www.xe.com/cash/?utm_source=i...h180*150tripUS

Mah: maybe this would be a good time to suggest my idea to the son in law and see if it flies.

<i>Nevertheless in Euro in relation to the dollar, Americans are still losing 33.33% of dollar buying value when we have to pay in Euro.</i>

I disagree. Although prices in the cities sometimes seem outrageous, they really aren't out of line with what we pay in big US cities, when both the exchange rate and the price in local currency are taken int account. The fact that a Euro costs $1.50 is only one of the factors to consider. This is shown clearly on the following chart:

http://www.finfacts.ie/costofliving.htm

As can be seen, Paris is only 109.4% as expensive as NYC - and even London is &quot;only&quot; 125%.

And this chart is using $1.57 = 1&euro;, which is about 7&cent; too high as of this week.

Robespierre,

Not talking abut equal hotels in New York City,where I dont live, but just to buying value of dollar in Europe; I can buy an excellent lunch for $12.00 American, entree and salad .(no drinks or wine).

$12.00 American is equal to Euro 7.99.
Tell me what lunch I can buy
for 8 Euro.

I can buy an excellent dinner for less than $20.00 American, entree, salad, dessert,bread.(shrimp Napoleon or mussels) Please tell me what similar dinner I can buy for Euro 13.32 in Paris.

For that matter I can have an entire breakfast, pancakes, eggs, bacon or sausage or ham, plus potatoes and coffee for less than $7.00 American. What breakfast can I get for Euro 4.66 ?

Last time I had mussels, bread and dessert at Leon's of Bruxelles on Rue St. Michel in Paris when the exchange was US $1.32 for 1 Euro, my bill was 28 Euro - now equal to $42.03 American.
One can buy one heck of a dinner AND lunch for $42.00 in the USA. Or for that matter, $42 is breakfast, lunch and dinner in the USA.

Really, we can't say it's equal.

Susanna,

I thought about it, but reasonable apartments anywhere in Paris in late September this year are scarce - so I chicken out :)

M.

i often send traveler's checks made out to the person....its the easiest

<i>Not talking ab[o]ut equal hotels in New York City...</i>

That is obvious. Once more: the value of one currency for another country's goods and services depends on a combination of the exchange rate and the prices in both countries.

To say that USD will buy 1/3 less than EUR just because that's the ratio of the currency prices is absurd.

Okay Robespierre.

You say Tomatoe (with the long A) and I say Tomato -(with the short AH)
You shall believe what you believe and I shall believe what I believe. I refuse to argue with you dear.

:)

Absurd.

Obtuse and obstreporous. :)

I probably shouldn't get into this argument, but regarding prices here in France and in the US, I don't see any point in comparing prices 'anywhere' in the US to prices in Paris.

I live in the countryside, where you can still get very good value for much less than in Paris. Then again, we don't have the ambience, real estate values, magic, etc. of Paris.

If you check my recent thread on eating in the Southwest
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...rlux&amp;fid=2
you'll find meals at much lower prices than in Paris. In my opinion they also taste much better than most meals in North America, but that's just my opinion.

&quot;Let's say the agreed price was &euro;100. I would deposit $200 over here and the landlord would withdraw &euro;100 in Europe. All the fees and foreign exchange markup would come out of my US funds, and not the merchant's European funds.&quot;

That is right, in order to send the real dollar equivalent of say, 100 euros, you have to deposit more, because the bank is going to eat up some by using its own exchange rate. The bank's exchange rate is not the real one. So it may not turn out to be an advantageous way to pay, once you factor in what what you will lose on the transaction.

I do think that rental owners in Europe may shy away from this system simply because it is completely new, and so left-field as to seem like one of those cons where you don't know how it works but it just smells wrong.

I have successfully used the ATM card to give a deposit on a french apartment in St Tropez, it worked beautifully. It took a while to get to this point.

In October I reserved an apartment in Grimaud, a few miles from St Tropez, for high season next year, June-July. We had been there this summer, staying in a different location. I had found this apartment on the net, the owner didn't speak a word of English and I wasn't exactly sure where it was. We visited the apartment and the owner while we were there and loved it and tell her that we definitely want to stay here next summer. She will email me when she has her calender for 2009.

Now the drama begins. She would like a deposit now, and another one closer to the actual date. I propose the ATM card and just like many of you said in the other threads, she thinks that this is way to difficult and she prefers a bank transfer! I tell her I can do that but it is very difficult (don't know why) and expensive for us to do that. She says to just do one transfer then and we can pay the remainder when we arrive, great.

After the new year I attempt to do the wire transfer, with all the hassle and agony that always happens. She sends me the transfer information's, I take them to my bank and start the process. They call me back later that day and tell me that the swift # is only 8 numbers/letters and that they need 12! I write her back and she says that she has given me the correct number and that she gets transfers from all over the world with no problems. I relay this info to my bank, but, NO, they still want 12 numbers/letters! Fine, just cancel it.

I look into Western Union but that is REALLY expensive. OK, I can get a bank draft in euros. I write her back with that proposal, NO, she doesn't like that, it costs too much on her end,which I will pay but now is costing an arm and leg with the fees on both ends. I can tell she is frustrated, I am becoming a big pain, BUT, a three week rental is substantial, I ask her if she is going to cancel me and she assures me that I have the reservation.

At this point I figure I have nothing to loose. I write her another email and tell her I am sending her money for the deposit, I do not tell her it is the ATM card. I have an account at the bank with $25 in it, an ATM only card with no link to a visa credit card.

I send her, via snail mail ,the ATM card, a self addressed envelope with 2euros taped to it for the postage and a note to email me when she receives it. She is irritated to get the card, I can tell. I immediately transfer money into that account, write her back in the most simple french and tell her: take the card to an ATM at the bank, put in the card, put in this code (!@#$) put in an amount (400euro) and VOILA, money....and I tell her I hope it will be very easy for her to do.

The next morning I wake up, check the bank account and see that the correct amount has been withdrawn in two withdrawals. I immediately write her and ask if it worked. She writes back that it worked perfectly and was very easy, she will now send me the card and the receipts back. I can tell by her tone that she is happy. I go back into the account and take out the extra money I had transferred, leaving $25 in it again.

This process has cost me $3...I pay $1.50 a transaction on that ATM card, had I used my credit union it would have been free, she has paid nothing to get the money, a win win for both of us.

In the future I will probably just tell them I am sending the deposit and send them the ATM. It seems to sound difficult in the explanation but in actuality it is quite simple. Maybe if they just get the card and then receive the directions they will be more open to trying it.

I hope that this helps others, it is always such a hassel to send that damn deposit, this was just so so easy, in the end !

It doesn't sound that easy to me, but glad it worked out for you. It sounds to me like it took a lot of time and trouble. But I agree the actual cost is small (which doesn't include your time, which seems considerable to me to open the account, to communicate with the landlord several times, and then to close the account).

I have never done a wire transfer but have had bank checks written in euro which I just mailed to some company in France for payment for things. I don't know why your landlord thought getting a check in euro was expensive for her, I don't get that at all. The people I sent mine to are used to getting checks and depositing them, why would that be a problem for the recipient, can't imagine.

They might have the same problem we do at work (UK) - we can only take cheques drawn on a British bank, with British branch address and sorting code. I'm not involved with the details of payment, so I don't know exactly why - but I know it's something to do with the bank we use. Either they charge fees which are high compared to the amount we usually get overseas payments for, enough to make it not worthwhile, or they won't do it at all.

Christina,

I'll chime in on this method because I think it does NOT involve a lot of time and trouble compared with other methods. Let me describe the hassle I went through a few years ago trying to put down a deposit for a hotel in Croatia.

First, I had to go to the bank to arrange a wire transfer, using the Swift # supplied by the landlord. The deposit wasn't large, perhaps $100. That cost me $35 for the transfer. The hotel wanted the deposit in Euro, so my bank had to convert my dollars to Euros; at a really horrible rate.

When the money arrived in the landlord's bank, the bank leveled an additional charge; for what I have no idea. That meant the hotel did not have the full amount needed for my deposit. A series of back and forth emails followed, with the landlord saying he wanted the full amount, and me saying I was not about to pay an additional $35, plus conversion fees, to send him a few more Euro. He finally agreed that I could pay the difference when I arrived, but the whole thing cost me time, money, and a lot of frustration.

Look at it this way, you would have to go to the bank to arrange the wire transfer anyway. It would probably be easier to open a new account, and get your two ATM cards. You could probably do it on line, or with a phone call.

It used to be much easier for me when I had a bank account in Holland. I could have just sent the guy a Euro check. Sorry I closed that account.

Bottom line is that I think Susanna's method is easy and workable. I'll try it when the need next arises.

:-)

You have an excellent suggestion susanna. I don't need it because I have my Dutch bank account but it should work well for many others.

Thanks Nuke, you have gone through the same hassles that I have.

I don't know why it is so difficult and expensive for Americans to send money to Europe.

It was about 5 mins to open the account, I would have to have emails with the landlord no matter which way I gave them money, and, I am not closing the account. I am able to transfer the money out of it on the net and I can also change the code with just a phone call, although it has worked out so well that I probably won't.

Finale to my payment plan: the card and receipts arrived today in the mail!!

Bravo Susan you did it! Now I wonder if I could suggest my future guests to do that in some cases (a long stay booked a long time in advance). Maybe it would be as hard for me to explain it the other way!

Fellow Fodorites, what do you think? Would you like the owner to ask you to open an account especially to pay for a deposit? I wonder...

Beside the 1.5$, was the change good for you, no additional charges? I suppose it must be the same as when you withdraw money yourself from the ATM...