Amsterdam to Paris with Battle of Bulge in between?
Sep 10th, 2015, 04:52 PM
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Amsterdam to Paris with Battle of Bulge in between?
Hello all. Well, I scored some amazing business class tickets this week on a crazy sale. Into Amsterdam and out of Paris. Mid March 2016.
I had been in the middle of planning a Vienna, Prague, Berlin trip, so this is a bit of a whirlwind. I decided I'd rather fly business class than stick to the old plan. So there you have it. Laying down in a plane trumps all.
I will have 11 nights on the ground. We have never been to Amsterdam, but have been to Paris twice. I think Paris could be only 2-3 nights and we'd be fine with that.
I am looking for advice on how to structure the trip. From the little I've read, Bruges sounds very quaint and picturesque. But DH has a lot of interest in WWII, and I know the Ardennes with a private guided tour would interest him. And maybe he will forgive me because he's not going to Berlin.
Can anyone suggest how to stitch this together, and where to stay in the Ardennes area? Bastogne doesn't really look cute (I know why, of course) but it may be the most convenient.
If I have to skip Bruges because its in the wrong part of Belgium, it would be nice to put back in something with pretty architecture and history. Maybe we can do both.
What about Spa? or Trier? or even Luxembourg City?
Just getting started here, so looking for advice. Also, if we should rent a car or try to tackle this via train?
Thanks!
I had been in the middle of planning a Vienna, Prague, Berlin trip, so this is a bit of a whirlwind. I decided I'd rather fly business class than stick to the old plan. So there you have it. Laying down in a plane trumps all.
I will have 11 nights on the ground. We have never been to Amsterdam, but have been to Paris twice. I think Paris could be only 2-3 nights and we'd be fine with that.
I am looking for advice on how to structure the trip. From the little I've read, Bruges sounds very quaint and picturesque. But DH has a lot of interest in WWII, and I know the Ardennes with a private guided tour would interest him. And maybe he will forgive me because he's not going to Berlin.
Can anyone suggest how to stitch this together, and where to stay in the Ardennes area? Bastogne doesn't really look cute (I know why, of course) but it may be the most convenient.
If I have to skip Bruges because its in the wrong part of Belgium, it would be nice to put back in something with pretty architecture and history. Maybe we can do both.
What about Spa? or Trier? or even Luxembourg City?
Just getting started here, so looking for advice. Also, if we should rent a car or try to tackle this via train?
Thanks!
Sep 10th, 2015, 05:04 PM
#2
Stavelot or Spa.
I can <i>highly</i> recommend Henri Mignon -- he was a child living outside Bastogne during the battle.
http://www.mardasson.com/#General_Information.A
He has some set itineraries but will also customize a plan if you are interested in specific units or events. He really does know everything about the Battle for the Ardennes/Bulge.
W/ 11 days and if you're OK w/ a short time in Paris -- I honestly think you can manage A'dam, Bruges, The Bulge area and Paris. I did it in April/May (substituting London for Paris) car-less but having a car for the Bulge would be easier.
3 nights A'dam, 2 nights Bruges, 3 nights in the Ardennes and 3 in Paris would work.
I can <i>highly</i> recommend Henri Mignon -- he was a child living outside Bastogne during the battle.
http://www.mardasson.com/#General_Information.A
He has some set itineraries but will also customize a plan if you are interested in specific units or events. He really does know everything about the Battle for the Ardennes/Bulge.
W/ 11 days and if you're OK w/ a short time in Paris -- I honestly think you can manage A'dam, Bruges, The Bulge area and Paris. I did it in April/May (substituting London for Paris) car-less but having a car for the Bulge would be easier.
3 nights A'dam, 2 nights Bruges, 3 nights in the Ardennes and 3 in Paris would work.
Sep 10th, 2015, 05:04 PM
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Spa is a fairly small town that is a nice place to stay but doesn't have a whole lot to do. We stayed in a manor house near the town (the reason we chose it) and used it to see Liege and also Aachen in Germany (Charlemagne's capital) as well as some local castles.
Trier is a larger town with a lot to do and see - besides the cute German old town there are a number of sizable Roman remains (the Port Nigra and a museum with a ton of mosaics and a bunch of fascinating Roman artifacts).
We had a car and in driving south from Spa to Trier we stopped in an number of small towns that had WWII museums (a couple fairly small but with hundreds of items) as well with a fairly large one with a number of trucks and tanks. We just fell on the smaller one when we stopped at a hill town from lunch. In the museum we encountered a couple of older British couples who were reminiscing about when the men had been in the army in the area - and they identified numerous items (many everyday things) that were just like the ones they had used.
You may want to look into a tour of Bastogne but I would do some in-depth research and check out some of these smaller museums as well.
Trier is a larger town with a lot to do and see - besides the cute German old town there are a number of sizable Roman remains (the Port Nigra and a museum with a ton of mosaics and a bunch of fascinating Roman artifacts).
We had a car and in driving south from Spa to Trier we stopped in an number of small towns that had WWII museums (a couple fairly small but with hundreds of items) as well with a fairly large one with a number of trucks and tanks. We just fell on the smaller one when we stopped at a hill town from lunch. In the museum we encountered a couple of older British couples who were reminiscing about when the men had been in the army in the area - and they identified numerous items (many everyday things) that were just like the ones they had used.
You may want to look into a tour of Bastogne but I would do some in-depth research and check out some of these smaller museums as well.
Sep 10th, 2015, 05:13 PM
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janisj, thank you for the guide recommendation. I know you only did trains, but could you advise on when/where to rent the car? Would that be on our way out of Bruges? Or maybe in Brussels before Bruges? Then I have to turn the darn thing in and get to Paris somehow, of course. hmmm.
I like the idea of getting to go to Aachen or Trier from our base in Ardennes area. That way I can tell DH that we are going to Germany after all ; )
I like the idea of getting to go to Aachen or Trier from our base in Ardennes area. That way I can tell DH that we are going to Germany after all ; )
Sep 10th, 2015, 07:47 PM
#5
You could either: Take the train from Amsterdam to Bruges and then afterward on to Brussels. You could pick up a car in either Brussels or even better - Liege. Drop the car back at Brussels and train to Paris . . . OR . . . Train Amsterdam to Liege. Collect a car to tour the Bulge. Drop the car at either Liege or Brussels and take the train to Bruges. Then on to Paris.
In either case you'd only need a car for about 3 days.
If you use Henri -- he charges quite a bit less if he uses your car for the tour. More to use his vehicle.
In either case you'd only need a car for about 3 days.
If you use Henri -- he charges quite a bit less if he uses your car for the tour. More to use his vehicle.
Sep 11th, 2015, 12:53 AM
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You may want to take fast train (Thalys) from Amsterdam to Bruxelles or Liege.
In Bruxelles visit the Grand place and around, it is absolutely superb.
Then rent a car and go to Bastogne.
It is 2 hours drive from Bruxelles, one hour from Liege.
Around Bastogne, look for a stay in 'La roche en ardenne'
http://www.la-roche-tourisme.com/indexuk.php
In Bastogne, don't miss http://www.bastogne.be/loisirs/touri...irborne-museum
In Bruxelles visit the Grand place and around, it is absolutely superb.
Then rent a car and go to Bastogne.
It is 2 hours drive from Bruxelles, one hour from Liege.
Around Bastogne, look for a stay in 'La roche en ardenne'
http://www.la-roche-tourisme.com/indexuk.php
In Bastogne, don't miss http://www.bastogne.be/loisirs/touri...irborne-museum
Sep 11th, 2015, 03:49 AM
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Luxembourg City is a pretty place as a deep gorge bisects it but otherwise is rather blah - saying this after visiting it for years on business - Trier is a neat old town though modern looking after war damage and just is not conducive much for Ardennes - Luxzembourg City has the Hamm Military Cemetery - U.S. where Gen George Blood and Guts Patton is buried - after he was killed in a jeep crash after WW 2 had ended.
For train info - Thalys trains the 'fast trains' have a Byzantine fare structure with those who buy really early - 3 months out if 4 is not possible - get deep discounted tickets - much cheaper than walk-up fares and with the ABS fare for an extra few euros you can go from any Thalys station in Belgium where you get off the Thalys to Any Belgian Station on any train within 24 hours (could be 48) - could go to Spa or Bastogne, Bruges, etc.
For lots of great train info check www.seat61.com - good advice on discounted tickets; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com.
For train info - Thalys trains the 'fast trains' have a Byzantine fare structure with those who buy really early - 3 months out if 4 is not possible - get deep discounted tickets - much cheaper than walk-up fares and with the ABS fare for an extra few euros you can go from any Thalys station in Belgium where you get off the Thalys to Any Belgian Station on any train within 24 hours (could be 48) - could go to Spa or Bastogne, Bruges, etc.
For lots of great train info check www.seat61.com - good advice on discounted tickets; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com.
Sep 11th, 2015, 04:15 AM
#8
I stayed in Sedan when I visited the area.
I went to quite a few cemeteries: http://anyportinastorm.proboards.com...s-kingdom-dead
I went to quite a few cemeteries: http://anyportinastorm.proboards.com...s-kingdom-dead
Sep 11th, 2015, 07:33 AM
#10
One note: The area around Bastogne is most well known and sort of the center of the Battle of the Bulge 'industry'. But that is partly because that is where the headquarters were and where most of the war correspondents were based.
But a lot of the fiercest fighting, significant locations like Lanzerath Ridge, Malmedy, St Vith, etc are in the more rural (still mostly farms/forests) eastern area of the 'Bulge" proper. If your DH is really interested in the actual battle sites I'd have a car and base in that area and not in Bastogne, Luxembourg City, etc.
But a lot of the fiercest fighting, significant locations like Lanzerath Ridge, Malmedy, St Vith, etc are in the more rural (still mostly farms/forests) eastern area of the 'Bulge" proper. If your DH is really interested in the actual battle sites I'd have a car and base in that area and not in Bastogne, Luxembourg City, etc.
Sep 11th, 2015, 07:39 AM
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I agree that Luxembourg City is nothing that exciting. The nearby US cemetery at Hamm is really nice, though. Most of the dead there are fallen from the Battle of the Bulge. The town of Diekirch - easily reachable by train - was in the middle of the Battle of the Bulge, and there's an interesting (if dated-feeling) little museum there dedicated to the battle.
You can read my Luxembourg trip report (with pictures) by clicking on my name.
You can read my Luxembourg trip report (with pictures) by clicking on my name.
Sep 11th, 2015, 07:51 AM
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St Vith and Clervaux were virtually destroyed during fighting and evacuated after a fierece defense.
Bestogne WAS a place of VERY HARD fighting.
2/3d of the houses were demolished if I'm not mistaken.
But remained in US hands, despite complete encirclement for several days by several german divisions.
In Belgium, we often talk about la bataille de Bastogne as a way to refer to the battle of the bulge (bataille des ardennes).
Bestogne WAS a place of VERY HARD fighting.
2/3d of the houses were demolished if I'm not mistaken.
But remained in US hands, despite complete encirclement for several days by several german divisions.
In Belgium, we often talk about la bataille de Bastogne as a way to refer to the battle of the bulge (bataille des ardennes).
Sep 11th, 2015, 08:07 AM
#13
Oh -- I didn't at all mean to downplay the fighting around Bastogne (the guide I mentioned above -- his father was killed during the battle on their farm outside Bastogne).
It is just that many Americans have really only heard of Bastogne and think it WAS the Battle of of the Bulge. (not implying this applies to the OP/DH).
But a lot of the fighting and heavy casualties were north east if there in the actual bulge where Belgium 'bulges' into Germany.
There is plenty of honor/horror/memories to go around throughout the whole area.
It is just that many Americans have really only heard of Bastogne and think it WAS the Battle of of the Bulge. (not implying this applies to the OP/DH).
But a lot of the fighting and heavy casualties were north east if there in the actual bulge where Belgium 'bulges' into Germany.
There is plenty of honor/horror/memories to go around throughout the whole area.
Sep 11th, 2015, 12:18 PM
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Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I was mainly looking for advice on a nice place to stay (in 2016!) in the area that is close to the "sites" so to speak. Thanks for the mention of Liege as a jumping off point. That looks convenient!
I think you are correct, Janis, that Americans do tend to say "Bastogne" when "Ardennes" would be more correct. The entire battle was of course enormous in scope. DH's uncle fought in the battle, and we need to ask a cousin to find out his military record. It would be nice if we could find out where he was deployed, from a personal point of view. As with many veterans, he would not talk about it, and only related two stories (both harrowing) to his brother (DH's Dad) about the entire war.
I think you are correct, Janis, that Americans do tend to say "Bastogne" when "Ardennes" would be more correct. The entire battle was of course enormous in scope. DH's uncle fought in the battle, and we need to ask a cousin to find out his military record. It would be nice if we could find out where he was deployed, from a personal point of view. As with many veterans, he would not talk about it, and only related two stories (both harrowing) to his brother (DH's Dad) about the entire war.
Sep 11th, 2015, 12:49 PM
#15
If you know his unit there are lots of resources -- some of the links others provided in my threads may help, and Henri Mignon has just about everything ever written about the different action/events.
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...bulge-area.cfm
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...-elsewhere.cfm
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...d-two-gtgs.cfm
and John Eisenhowers' book '<i>The Bitter Woods: The Battle of the Bulge</i>'
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...bulge-area.cfm
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...-elsewhere.cfm
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...d-two-gtgs.cfm
and John Eisenhowers' book '<i>The Bitter Woods: The Battle of the Bulge</i>'
Sep 11th, 2015, 01:11 PM
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Thanks for the links, I had read your posts and trip reports previously janisj! Your problems with train delays, strikes, and unmanned stations really make me happy to pay for a rental car ; )
I am contacting the cousin for more information. I'd look for Uncle's record myself, but you have to be close family and have social security number to access the official database.
kerouac, thanks for the links to your graveyard photos. The German cemetery at Noyers-Pont-Maugis is very somber, reminding me of the German cemetery in Bayeux, Normandy.
Any further advice from those who have visited the area is vey much welcome. Happy weekend all!
I am contacting the cousin for more information. I'd look for Uncle's record myself, but you have to be close family and have social security number to access the official database.
kerouac, thanks for the links to your graveyard photos. The German cemetery at Noyers-Pont-Maugis is very somber, reminding me of the German cemetery in Bayeux, Normandy.
Any further advice from those who have visited the area is vey much welcome. Happy weekend all!
